MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
That’s fine, I’ll allocate you a square foot on the boundary with my neighbour, you’ll get on great 😀
Doric state
Pretty sure Greece is already independent....
Unless sturgeon pushes hard with everything possible towards independence the SNP will split
😆😆😆
SNP wont split, not a chance.
The Uber nationalists may moan about Sturgeons careful approach, but they’d be mad to split, back to being a shortbread sideshow like they were in the last century.
Its not just them - the SNP is suffering from being too long in power and factionalism is arising.
Its amazing how destructive some politicians can be to their own cause.
The Uber nationalists may moan about Sturgeons careful approach, but they’d be mad to split, back to being a shortbread sideshow like they were in the last century.
Sturgeon has done an amazing job of attracting the undecideds and some of those that voted no last time. A fear is that her approach doesn’t have the strength in depth within the party and that successive leaders may be less attractive to the switherers. It’s a difficult one.
And it will be made more difficult if Starmer is able to improve the labour offering up here.
Pretty sure Greece is already independent….
This is the sort of answer expected from the 'rood.
Last time I checked there were no other national languages on their website or communications.
The cultural argument of the SNP applies (it seems) to Doric and Erse speaking cultures as it does to Gaelic.
Moreover the economics have the same arguments ...
Taking a taxi driver straw poll in Aberdeen and Shetland a common complaint I hear is the rood has just moved a parliament slightly closer and they are still just taking more than they put back.
I'm not saying that is true or not but it is a perception hence the3 whole "but what about North Sea Oil" and how a independent Scotland can then refuse to acknowledge requests for independence by areas that feel under represented?
stevextc - that’s the “if Brexit is good then Scots independence is better” argument. And to some extent it may hold water.
The EU is a private member’s trading club that you do offer up some sovereignty to join (just like any club, even the rugby club has rules).
The UK involves handing over far more sovereignty and having less say in how it’s run (unless you’re English cos your the biggest nation in the UK).
It all ends up being about balances cog benefits and losses
If, and it's a very big if, those areas wished to set sail, then I wouldn't see any issue.
But taxi drivers? Really?
It can only be hoped that the recent changes at the NEC will flush out more of those who have been using the SNP to further their own political goals rather than driving towards independence. That fact that some have already jumped to the Green Party rather proves that this has been a good thing. Controlling the discussion, for instance not allowing conference to debate any plan B, is not a sign of an open party.
No chance scotland will be independent in 5 years time.. that timescale is unrealistic.
If, and it’s a very big if, those areas wished to set sail, then I wouldn’t see any issue.
Shetland voted 22:2 already. Between Shetland and Aberdeenshire that's a very large chunk of tax revenue. However I think the "sod off if you want" attitude may also contribute.
But taxi drivers? Really?
They vote like everyone else...
They are probably biased in Aberdeen as the lack of the bypass affected them disproportionally and by their estimation Aberdeen were paying in a good chunk of revenue but barely less distant to Edinburgh than London. Again though the "sod off if you want" doesn't help.
The bypass is symbolic ... (other than being needed) as this was one thing they'd expected to change with devolution along with cultural issues such as lack of Doric recognition.
the bypass is 15yrs too late, whilst convenient for some it is bit of a white elephant now.
IGM
stevextc – that’s the “if Brexit is good then Scots independence is better” argument. And to some extent it may hold water.
Perhaps, though I'm not arguing from a political sense so much as pointing out the arguments are the same and economically it's very significant.
One thing I'd have sympathy (being English so not wanting to stick my nose in but might prompt me to move) for is Scotland leaving the UK and joining the EU... but as seperate economies Shetland/Aberdeenshire might benefit less.
If you take the population of Shetland (22,000?) and divide oil revenue then everyone is a millionaire type thing.
the bypass is 15yrs too late, whilst convenient it is bit of a white elephant now.
That's certainly what I hear.... (there may or may not be good reasons, I'm just repeating what voters tell me)
tpbiker
Full Member
No chance scotland will be independent in 5 years time.. that timescale is unrealistic
I agree. I mean, silly things like Brexit, Trump being president and a global pandemic couldn't have happened in the last 5 years.
Oh. Wait.
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/scotland-indyref-2/page/123/#post-11641382
Independence for Shetland, really? It’s a lovely place and the council did well out of the oil levy they negotiated (although they were very short sighted). Shetland rely on the mainland for so much. As for Aberdeen/Doric independence that is just a chip on the shoulder against central belt dominance. The SNP are the biggest party up here.
Shetland rely on the mainland for so much.
Sounds a familiar argument.
tpbiker
No chance scotland will be independent in 5 years time.. that timescale is unrealistic.
What do you base that on?
The Iron Curtain countries seemed to have managed the transition within weeks from the might of the USSR.
Are Scots somehow less capable than people in other countries?
As for Aberdeen/Doric independence that is just a chip on the shoulder against central belt dominance. The SNP are the biggest party up here.
Well most places now but
Sounds a familiar argument.
That's kinda my point. The whole thing seems very familiar and I wonder if there won't be unintended consequences. Personally I'd be sad to see Scotland leave but I can understand and be sympathetic but then in the same way I'd see Shetland and maybe Aberdeenshire wanting more direct returns on oil revenue.
No chance scotland will be independent in 5 years time.. that timescale is unrealistic.
It took the Czechs and Slovaks 5 months (though I can't see the current SNP leadership even presenting a choice in that timescale).
The Iron Curtain countries seemed to have managed the transition within weeks from the might of the USSR.
Are Scots somehow less capable than people in other countries?
It took the Czechs and Slovaks 5 months (though I can’t see the current SNP leadership even presenting a choice in that timescale).
If we can't sort transport infrastructure projects in a decade what makes you think we could sort an entirely new country and civil service five years from now?
I mean it's obviously possible but would require an amount of effort and collaboration between departments and parties that I just don't have the confidence would happen.
Nothing to do with capability but feel free to continue pushing the "too wee too poor too stupid" trope.
Are Scots somehow less capable than people in other countries?
I hate it when people use this , its scottish independence's " get brexit done " , used to dismiss people when they ask questions which might not give a pro independence answer . Sometimes its the correct answer but if your ultimate goal is to get people who voted no last time to change their mind its a rubbish way of doing it .
The Iron Curtain countries seemed to have managed the transition within weeks from the might of the USSR.
Are Scots somehow less capable than people in other countries?
I'm not even going to bother arguing the toss about why the scottish situation is completely different to the disintegration of the ussr, not worth my time.
I'm very very confident we won't be independent within 5 years, but rather than argue about it on here, let's put 200 quid on it?
If it's inevitable you'll bite my hand off for that bet..
As I've said, the current SNP leadership is unlikely to even have put forward the question before then.
I'll bet you are wrong on that Scotroutes. 🙂 5 months till the holyrood election and they will / should make independence the centre point with a ref in the next 6 months to year
If they don't do that they are out anyway and the party will split
Tj, there is no way there will be a legally binding referendum within a year. It's just not going to happen.
Snp may run some run some non uk gov authorised referendum, but all the no vote need to do is not bother to turn up and it would lack all legitimacy.
But as I say, if you think we'll have independence in 5 years take my bet..
Just for clarity..I'd probably vote yes (I previously voted no). Just think your timescales are pie in sky
I’ll bet you are wrong on that Scotroutes. 🙂 5 months till the holyrood election and they will / should make independence the centre point with a ref in the next 6 months to year
If they don’t do that they are out anyway and the party will split
May is key, this is why the Unionists are winding up their 'messages'. You've only to see how many bots are in action on Twitter and the Tory Press are moving in too. Once the New Year is out of the way, they'll start to increase their activity and we'll see Project Fear 2.0.
Brexit has taken the better part of 4 years, yet somehow Scottish independence would take less? Let’s not forget the SNPs process is leaving the UK to then quickly return to the EU. That is way more moving parts than Brexit.
Brexit has taken the better part of 4 years, yet somehow Scottish independence would take less? Let’s not forget the SNPs process is leaving the UK to then quickly return to the EU. That is way more moving parts than Brexit.
EU would have Scotland back happily
Brexit was putting up barriers between UK & eu- something no country has negotiated in a trade deal before, Scotland rejoin g would be far far less acrimonious
There's also a handy precedent been set regards Scotland & rUKs relationship, with the NI
May is key, this is why the Unionists are winding up their ‘messages’. You’ve only to see how many bots are in action on Twitter and the Tory Press are moving in too. Once the New Year is out of the way, they’ll start to increase their activity and we’ll see Project Fear 2.0.
The thing is that we will not see Brexit in it's full glory come May so for me project fear 2.0 is neither here nor there (anything coming from the tories/tory media is background noise and I honestly think that brexit will be a complete shambles) Never voted for indyref the last time and will almost certainly vote for it this time (Plenty other small countries are successful) Although the Scottish parliament has its faults I do think that the government try to do right by the Scottish people whereas Westminster (the tories) only seem to want your vote and then literally do what they want and I don't see it changing anytime soon.
^ that’s pretty much where I’m at too.
EU would have Scotland back happily
This was the message from the EU during the Brexit talks to weaken UKs position. I personally don’t think it’s as easy as the SNP would let you think.
There’s also Spain‘s position on this, which only recently changed, however depending on the weakest leader the Spanish government has seen in its short democracy seems rather risky, as he is known for flip flopping and playing both sides without batting an eye. His only redeeming quality as a leader is being tall and good looking. The position of the other major part (PP) is that Scotland would have to go through the whole process as a new nation.
The SNP will fail on the currency issue, Andrew Neil burst the bubble very easily on the Spectator TV interview
The worst part for the SNP was when he pointed out to the interviewee that others were now at the top table making up policies that run a coach and horses through the more sensible aspects of his report
tpbiker - I never bet for money. forfeit?
The thing for the SNP is that the pressure to have an all out push for independence will become intolerable after a May victory. They have to move and move quickly or else the party will split or otherwise be badly damaged.
Big and Daft - I too want to hear good answers to the currency issues
The SNP will fail on the currency issue, Andrew Neil burst the bubble very easily on the Spectator TV interview
Brexit has shown that it really doesnt matter, people vote when their head not their heart, the more people like Neil condescend, the more opinion hardens.
Indy is polling way higher than brexit ever did
-That's all thanks to Johnson & Brexit
Neither of which are going away any time soon. (there's years of trade talks with the EU, USA etc to come all easily used by the indy cause_- see also fall out from covid)
How the SNP go about getting a vote is what matters
tjagain
I too want to hear good answers to the currency issues
I couldn't give a hoot what currency we use initially. 😆 longer term the people will decide.
kimbers
-That’s all thanks to Johnson & Brexit
And covid, in fairness, be interesting where the polls lie after mass vaccination, that'll tell a crucial story.
And covid, in fairness, be interesting where the polls lie after mass vaccination, that’ll tell a crucial story.
Yeah memories are short but the economic fallout from covid will be hard, hopefully things will bounce back quickly & that could coincide with may elections
Think the reality is that France would very much like Scotland back in the EU so the SNP have a surprisingly strong hand to play on indy if they can hold their nerve and unity. The Tories have turned England into a pariah state. Welcoming Scotland as an EU member surrounds England and puts France back in the driving seat of the EU agenda. I voted no to independence last time on the basis that Spain would not allow a small “break away” nation easy access to the EU. I’ll be voting yes this time.
I think Scotland will be have voted to become independent in 5 years. I think NS is walking a fine line between the realisation that she has been in power a long time/keeping the more impatient nationalists happy/ allowing Brexit to hit home. The Tory majority isn't going anywhere soon and nor is the particular flavour of it's leadership, so support for the idea of getting us away from them will stay high. She needs to maintain support in the face of what will be a huge media campaign.
Brexit has taken the better part of 4 years, yet somehow Scottish independence would take less? Let’s not forget the SNPs process is leaving the UK to then quickly return to the EU. That is way more moving parts than Brexit.
Most of that time has been spent on bull crap internal politics.
If, and it’s a big if, there is a legally binding referendum AND and unarguable decisive majority in favour. It would take far less time to match the volume of work towards Brexit. Even with all the flaws of Scottish Governance.
Success in all parts of achieving Indy for me, start with a decisive majority in favour. Without that I’d expect a shit show of wrangling and bull shit.
Big and Daft – I too want to hear good answers to the currency issues
Three choices post independence; Sterling, Euro or own.
All will have issues, but this is something to be decided/planned once we're won the vote.
Once the vote is won, then a timetable needs to be worked out - no point handcuffing ourselves before.
Three choices post independence; Sterling, Euro or own.
Not if we rejoin eu.
Three choices post independence; Sterling, Euro or own.
There are no choices. If Scotland wants to join the eu it has to have it’s own currency first and then has to have the euro.
Once the vote is won, then a timetable needs to be worked out – no point handcuffing ourselves before.
Now that sounds familiar, we want to rip up the status quo, we don't have any firm plans for after the vote but trust us it will be great.
That approach worked out well for Brexit didn't it.
Sweden are in the EU without having the Euro
A similar fudge could be managed for Scotland, though ultimately I imagine they'd join the euro.
If SNP are planning for it now the currency issue is just another political hurdle and learning from brexit, can be dismissed as 'project fear' and people will ignore it.
(tho you'd hope the SNP wouldn't be as dishonest as the brexiteers, as with brexit, long term this dishonesty poisons the country)
The problem with Brexit was that it promised contradictions. 100% sovereignty and unlimited access to the world whilst having one way freedom of movement. The fundamentals of what they wanted were never clarified.
In the case of an IS the general direction we want to go is already clarified. We want to be a small nation that is part of a larger trading bloc and we accept the benefits and limitations that brings.
You can't compare Brexit and Independence. In one case they're trying to decide where the hell they are going and the other they are deciding how to get there.
Highland household here all voting for independence next time. Lots of friends who weren't up for it last time are now.
Absolutely no truck with the break from Europe - not being an international team player - and the apeing of USA Politics perceived at Westminster. Unregulated Capitalism is also now a proven failure and while I don't want to go flying to the extreme left some big problems in society need to be tackled that aren't being tackled. And I'm not talking about immigrants.....
5th elephant - you forget that Scotland owns 9% of the £
The SNP needs a coherent policy on post independence money
5th elephant – you forget that Scotland owns 9% of the £
And? Scotland needs it’s own currency to join the eu. 100% of it.
Not that I think that matters. It’s just stuff to sort out.
In the case of an IS the general direction we want to go is already clarified. We want to be a small nation that is part of a larger trading bloc and we accept the benefits and limitations that brings.
+1
Scotland needs it’s own currency to join the eu.
Is this an actual fact or just an assumption? Genuine question.
Is this an actual fact or just an assumption? Genuine question.
In order to join the Euro, a countries currency must first be tied to the ERM for two years. So, in theory, that rules Scotland out. However, Brexit shows that the EU can be flexible with rules when it suits them. This flexibility could also be used to help Scotland (re)join the EU. I guess that the sooner Scotland applied, the easier that would be as there will have been little divergence.
Is this an actual fact or just an assumption? Genuine question.
It’s a fact as far as facts go in a negotiation (see scotroutes). There are numerous economic conditions that need to be met that need a central bank with it’s own currency.
I’d be surprised if a country has joined the eu without it’s own currency. It’s pretty fundamental to being a country.
tpbiker – I never bet for money. forfeit?
And I only bet for cash...although in 5 years if we are independent I will gladly come on here and proclaim your superior knowledge on the subject, if you will do the same if we aren't..
The challenge was originally for epicycle, but I see he hasn't taken me up in it either!
That approach worked out well for Brexit didn’t it.
Yeah, but this will be the easiest deal in history.
We want to be a small nation that is part of a larger trading bloc and we accept the benefits and limitations that brings.
Wow, vote winning slogan right there.
Utter tosh, the SNP is doing exactly what the Brexiteers did, they are selling a pipe dream Scotland will be better off on its own, able to make it's own decisions without having to ask permission. No proper discussion post vote, no road map, vague promises about rejoinjing the EU (completely uncharted waters and if I remember from last time a lot of gross assumptions the EU flatly refuted like being able to stay in the EU, not having to apply to join).
The only difference is I do believe some of the SNP are doing it because they believe in it as opposed to the Brexiteers who did it for personal greed and advancement.
No one will be voting either way whilst Boris and his ilk are in Westminster.
Scotland can't join the EU with the £ as it's currency.
So is it Merks and bawbee's or the euro for EU membership.
Until you can answer that question EU membership is a pipedream
The SNP needs a coherent policy on post independence money
Before or after asking for a referendum?
Utter tosh, the SNP is doing exactly what the Brexiteers did, they are selling a pipe dream Scotland will be better off on its own, able to make it’s own decisions without having to ask permission.
No, that's utter tosh.
Brexiteers said that we could have access to any market we wanted while keeping 100% sovereignty.
No one I have heard arguing for independence has said that we will be 100% sovereign and have unlimited access to other markets. If you have then please post a link.
No one will be voting either way whilst Boris and his ilk are in Westminster.
Aye, Sturgeon needs something other than Plan A 🙂
OK, I'll ask another way. How did you vote last time and are you likely to change your vote next time (whenever that is)? I'm seeing a bit of No-to-Yes on this thread and just trying to get some balance.
big_n_daft
Free Member
Scotland can’t join the EU with the £ as it’s currency.So is it Merks and bawbee’s or the euro for EU membership.
Don't really see much problem with either tbh.
I dont think the euro would be that badly received by voters?
King Charles III soon, I think having his mug on the currency might well put a lot of people off it too!
But still, if a fudge can be found for Sweden on currency, one can be found for Scotland, surely?
kimbers
Full Member
I dunt think the euro would be that badly received by voters?
Dunno whether it would or not. But the narrative of it's imminent collapse will be met with some skepticism this time round I think...
OK, I’ll ask another way. How did you vote last time and are you likely to change your vote next time (whenever that is)?
My wife and I moved to Scotland in 2004, live in rural Aberdeenshire and couldn't contemplate moving back. We voted No last time but would now seriously consider voting Yes. I have reservations about the SNP tendency to centralisation and would need convinced on monetary issues but we need to get away from BoJo and his bunch of clowns. NS has shown more convincing leadership and responsibility over CoVid. I think Scotland has the potential to be a more equitable country.
Don’t really see much problem with either tbh.
So why isn't one or the other a clear SNP policy seeing as rejoining the EU is?
But still, if a fudge can be found for Sweden on currency, one can be found for Scotland, surely?
Own currency, own central bank
Are you asking for a policy of Merks and bawbee's? Why not state it?
I think Scotland has the potential to be a more equitable country.
As do all countries, but you know, it's "civic", and by "the people of Scotland"
Looks like snp is moving (slowly) onto the Central bank & currency thing...
Is this planned anytime soon? Or is it just a virtue signalling motion?
How can they establish anything other than a sink for tax payers cash that's just a talking shop? Who is going to pay for it?
No idea, but having it as a stated policy would make the SNP about 100x more prepared than the brexiters!
are you likely to change your vote next time
My vote doesn't count. For what its worth I can see why more people might be edging towards a Yes this time. Personally I still think it's all grass is greener politics and reality will be more complicated, messier, more expensive and leave Scotland in a worse position than it is now.
What we need to do is get Boris and his idiots out and return UK politics to something that actually benefits the population, that's in everyone's interest. Whatever happens we have to sort Westminster out first or
1. There will be no referendum.
2. Boris will play crazy and vindictive games during any deal making.
3. Scotland will still be screwed as it's biggest trading partner will be run by a bunch of total morons.
What we need to do is get Boris and his idiots out and return UK politics to something that actually benefits the population,
There lies the problem, I don't see it getting any better, Johnson & co have twigged that all they need to do is shout "statues/immigrants/got brexit done /kneeling footballers/EU" and the client press & half the country jump to attention....
stumpyjon
Full Member
are you likely to change your vote next timeMy vote doesn’t count. For what its worth I can see why more people might be edging towards a Yes this time. Personally I still think it’s all grass is greener politics and reality will be more complicated, messier, more expensive and leave Scotland in a worse position than it is now.
What we need to do is get Boris and his idiots out and return UK politics to something that actually benefits the population, that’s in everyone’s interest. Whatever happens we have to sort Westminster out first or
😆 best of luck with that.
Presumably Scotland could use the Euro without joining the Euro - like Kosovo amd Montenegro?
Presumably Scotland could use the Euro without joining the Euro – like Kosovo amd Montenegro?
I imagine it's not SNP policy for a reason.
Not having a policy means not having to discuss the downside. Cake and eat it politics in the best tradition of Brexit
No idea, but having it as a stated policy would make the SNP about 100x more prepared than the brexiters!
100x0=?
Out of interest big_n_daft, are you scottish/a scottish resident? Apologies if covered earlier, I've not followed the whole thread.
As do all countries, but you know, it’s “civic”, and by “the people of Scotland”
All countries do, but it's a lot easier in a country of 6 million people than it is in a country of 60 million.
The UK's democratic deficit isn't going away any time soon. It was workable when successive governments went along with the unwritten rules but now BoJo and Cummings have proven that they can be ignored without consequence.
Yes, life in the UK could get better over the next few years and decades. It could also get a lot worse and there will be absolutely nothing you can do about it.