MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Not going to happen - unless Johnson, at some future time in his premiership, is under pressure and his position is under threat.
Referendums/referenda - for the classicists or pedants.
I’ll stick my neck out and say that 2020 is too soon, there’s at least one other major thing to get out of the way before it should be looked at. Once the dust has settled, then lets look at ref2. OTOH I get that she’s attempting to strike whilst the iron’s hot
Exactly, if they wanted a proper debate and chance to sort it "for a generation" then they'd wait until there was a stable status quo to compare against. Hold it this year and next parliament you can have another referendum once Brexit has become whatever you said/didnt say it is/isnt/whatever.
Referendums is perfectly correct
Well, that's just what somebody with a pro-Boris agendum would say.
It's what anyone who knows what a gerund is would say.
Referenda surely!
Referendums is perfectly correct.
Well, that's what someone with a pro-Boris agendum would say.
It’s what anyone who knows what a gerund is would say.
It looks like a 2 year old attempted to forge his signature.
Can't even write, he is totally unfit to be PM.
It looks like a 2 year old attempted to forge his signature.
Well, it could be worse....
tjagain
Member
Referenda surely!
If you speak latin, mibbe. 😆
Referendums and referenda are both acceptable - well as words anyway.
Have a Thatcher quote to pour oil on troubled flames.
As a nation, [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.
Thatcher, Margaret. The Downing Street Years. London: Harper Press, 1993. 624; ch. 20. Print.
It’s what anyone who knows what a gerund is would say
Whoosh.
I’ll stick my neck out and say that 2020 is too soon, there’s at least one other major thing to get out of the way before it should be looked at. Once the dust has settled, then lets look at ref2. OTOH I get that she’s attempting to strike whilst the iron’s hot
My thoughts exactly. What's the rush, we've been in the union for long enough another few years won't matter. I'd rather wait to see what my choices are before jumping ship.
And if sturgeon is so sure brexit will be a disaster then why not wait and see. Then once she's proven correct we'll all be desperate for independence. Me included..
whoosh
No - agendum and agenda are derived from gerundives, there is a possibility that referendum could also be a gerundive (in neuter form) but that would mean that referenda would mean a vote on a number of things, not multiple votes hence the preference of the OED for referendums as a plural.
Boris is lying. Again.
There is no mention of any such clause in the Edinburgh Agreement for the referendum.
Can anyone provide a link as to when this "personal promise" was made?
If an offhand remark is to be taken as law, then surely Boris should be dead in a ditch.
Can anyone provide a link as to when this “personal promise” was made?
It's mentioned twice in the white paper, first couple of pages. More of a motivational tactic pre ref than anything else, but it's there. As well as salmond saying it in an interview.
There's heehaw legal about it, but we're stuck with getting it shoved in our face.
Wow, even Labour are getting in on the totalitarian angle.
Lisa Nandy who's aiming to be Labour leader reckons the Spanish treatment of Catalonia is a model Westminster should follow.
So she's ok with the police attacking voters at the polling stations and independence supporting politicians being jailed.
If that's a potential Labour leader, WTF has happened to the Labour Party?
It's another brick in the wall.
I'm convinced Boris wants Scotland Independant.
It's all a win for him, keep telling us naw, appeases all the Tory buffoons/unionist UJ wavers, keeps them all onside, pisses off everyone else by treating us like a child and eventually garnering enough support to vote yes, then his beloved Jerusalem is out of Europe, rid of the non-value adding Scots, and the Tories will be in power in the green and pleasant lands for an eternity.
We can only hope.
The only problem is Nobeer, they need the natural resources, and they aren't quite exhausted yet.
They can have the bloody oil.
Lisa Nandy who’s aiming to be Labour leader reckons the Spanish treatment of Catalonia is a model Westminster should follow.
There is a fair amount of truly unpleasant (and long standing) nationalism on both the Spanish and Catalan sides of the argument here. Is the Scotland/UK situation really comparable?
@koldun That's a question that Lisa Nandy should have asked herself before being interviewed. The fact that she didn't tells us a lot about what she thinks about Scots and Scotland.
I was also wondering if the West Lothian question is about to be reversed - a kind of East Lothian question.
The withdrawal bill will allow the UK government to operate or legislate in what are currently completely devolved areas with out reference to the devolved administration.
Would Boris be able to pass legislation at Westminster for England via EVEL and then enact the legislation in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland?
Interesting potential tactic (copied from a FB post):
By clause 38 in withdrawal agreement the act of union 1707 will be null and void at 23:01, on the 31st Jan as clause 38 declares the UK parliament is sovereign which goes into Scots law and legal system and any interference by 3ngland in Scottish law or legal system automatically dissolves the act of union wasn't that stated we couldn't touch each others legal set up
When the banks can no longer get access to the EU from brexit london but can from eu iScotland then of course some will relocate. Easier than going to Germany or Ireland
the north sea oil makes a big difference to the UK balance of payment and thus to the value of the £
I do love the english folk on here explaining to the scots why independence does not matter.
As for the "punching above their weight / overinflated sense of importance" again utter nonsense regarding scotland. This is one of the drivers for independence. When during the last ref campaign we were told that we would have no more influence than Finland we all shrugged and said - "thats about right"
Do not push your english fallacies onto scotland. There is no desire to "punch above our weight" We want to get on with being "the best wee country in the world" not pretend to be a billy big pants on the world stage.
Its coming - and sooner than you think. the next holyrood election will be in effect referendum on independence
I'm not sure what the point of this is right now other than to make a point.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51284836
Guess we'll find out tomorrow when she tells us what the grand plan is.
Getting some positive vibes in the bank before the unedifying spectacle of the former First Minister in court charged with sex pestery?
hels
Getting some positive vibes in the bank before the unedifying spectacle of the former First Minister in court charged with sex pestery?
Maybe so. It's bound to get some lurid reporting in the MSM. A juicy tidbit to bash the SNP with.
However he's no longer a member of the SNP or in a position of power, and the SNP are only a part of the independence movement so I'm not sure of its relevance to independence.
Also (I may have this wrong) but the timetable would mean it's more than 6 months before a referendum could be mounted, so any brouhaha about Salmond would be over and done with, and the effects of Brexit starting to bite.
I’m not sure what the point of this is
My guess is that they don't want to get on with the day job of running the country properly, and prefer to waste their time on this fruitless exercise.
This is the kind of nonsense that will really put of undecided voters like me
Its not that - and actually they are doing a decent job of the day job
the problem for Sturgeon is keeping the "independence now" people on side as well as the "wait and see" people.
She is under huge pressure to do something NOW! I do suspect there is some trickery waiting in the wings. I hope so or else she will be called out for it from both sides. Keeping both sides happy is tricky and risks just making both sides unhappy.
Couple of items:
The Queen has signed off on the Referendums (Scotland) Bill, so it is now Scots Law.
The EU is going to consider a Scottish petition about retaining our rights as EU citizens.
tpbiker
This is the kind of nonsense that will really put of undecided voters like me
Really? I thought you were the sort of person who would look deeper than the superficial. I just regarded it as them trying to pin-prick the Tories and of no great significance.
Others regard it as making a gesture to the EU that Scotland is not going willingly.
Nicola Sturgeon getting some real pelters on Twitter at the moment for her lack of direction and failed leadership. I wonder if she'll soon decide to step down to spend more time with her (soon to be Ex?) husband.
Nicola Sturgeon getting some real pelters on Twitter at the moment for her lack of direction and failed leadership. I wonder if she’ll soon decide to step down to spend more time with her (soon to be Ex?) husband
By the yoons
If you support independence who else are you going to vote for? I think she's pretty safe to say and do what she wants. There's no group that advocates a more radical approach for indy supporters to vote for.
Yet.
There’s no group that advocates a more radical approach for indy supporters to vote for.
There is a vocal minority on Twitter etc who scream "INDY NOW" or suggest daft things like a UDI.
They don't realise it's a chess game. Sturgeon is playing it perfectly and getting all the pieces in the right places.
Labour plumbing the depths,
There must be some competence in Scottish Labour, surely????
Whoever wins the Labour leadership needs to invest in developing policies with the party in Scotland and getting competence on the ballot sheet for the Holyrood elections.
BruceWee
If you support independence who else are you going to vote for?
Looks like the Greens are going to benefit. There's a lot of very unhappy people out there.
On the face of it, there is nothing wrong with her tactics of allowing demand for independence to grow, but that is supposing she was facing an ethical opponent.
It's best to get into the lifeboat before the ship sinks, and right now it has a bloody great hole in it.
Just one more mandate,
Give it to me.
Just don't expect
To be set free
I think the competent tactical statesman act works better when you've got a militant lunatic jumping around in the background threatening to burn the place down.
Craig Murray should start his own party on a platform of UDI followed by a swift pre-emptive invasion of England.
amazing 🙂
Still can't see IndyRef2 happening.
As for Auld Lang Syne being sung by MEPs; yes, was very touching, and probably sincere.
Compare and contrast with behaviour of Farage and fellow travellers earlier this week; I loved the moment when Mairead McGuinness cut his mic and slapped him down.
Some people have class, others don't.
Widdecombe is one of the undead and, I think, Farage is probably another; wait until he insinuates himself into another populist organisation.
The eu have got heehaw to do with the break up of the UK now, absolutely zero.
Was a very nice touch though.
Did I dream it? I'm sure there was some guy called Salmond or something like that heavily involved with the SNP. Maybe in the 2014 indyref campaign? But no mention of him in their history.
EU Commission building in Brussels tonight...
EU Commission building in Brussels tonight…
😆 adding fuel to fire.
Did I dream it? I’m sure there was some guy called Salmond or something like that heavily involved with the SNP. Maybe in the 2014 indyref campaign? But no mention of him in their history.
I can't help but think we're going to be hearing a lot about Salmond from one camp in the Yes/No debate over the next few months. It's been identified by various polling experts as the single most relevant issue facing all Scottish voters at the moment.
I certainly can't think of anything else.
I would think there will be some sweaty palms in the SNP leadership when the "who knew?" Questions start getting asked.
He may be innocent, so everyone might be getting over excited about the nation's favourite expensive trews wearer.
Any sensible opposition would keep quiet on issues arising until the verdict is out.
The who knew what when question could get interesting for the SNP. Especially when there are many people now saying the SNP aren't actually interested in independence anymore and we need to look at other options.
I am looking forward to the mental gymnastics that unionists are going to use to fill in the gaps between 'Alex Salmond is a sex offender so... [reasons] ...and that's why Scotland can't be independent'.
EU Commission building in Brussels tonight…
😆 adding fuel to fire.
What Nicola is rather conveniently missing out is the fact the message was commissioned and paid for by the Scottish government.
Like that time I paid Felicity Kendal to hang a banner outside her house saying "Come and get me Kenny, you big handsome love machine". And about as true.
Felicity Kendal? Are you Wayne Rooney in disguise? 🤣
A couple of points made here rang very true for me.
The vast majority of my friends/family voted 'no' for indyref, 'remain' for brexit. A lot of them feel very angry that we have now been dragged out of the EU thanks to the will of the English voters. I suspect that feeling could well lead to a very different result for indyref2.
We're in 'will of the people' territory now !
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1224464555151167489?s=19
In an extremely scientific poll , there were 8 of us out in Glasgow on Saturday . All previously no and remain voters . 1 still a no , 4 now yes and 3 coming round to the idea .
I just wonder if the numbers keep rising how long it can be dismissed by the government , having said that isn't there contradictory polling that says most Scots don't want a 2nd referendum ?
isn’t there contradictory polling that says most Scots don’t want a 2nd referendum ?
And yet the SNP keep getting a mandate for one 😊
And yet the SNP keep getting a mandate for one
Cmon, you're smarter than that.
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217 messages sent to 16yr old by Derek Mackay (snp finance secretary)
Dunno bout anyone else but if i was that boys parents i'd want to crush his balls between two bricks at the very least and then place him on the sex offenders register, what the absolute **** was he thinking?,
place him on the sex offenders register
Not defending him at all, but he's broken no laws so can't see why you expect him to be placed on the sex offenders register.
Morally reprehensible actions from MacKay, but legally he's done nothing wrong?
Yep. Not even sure why it's on this thread unless it's just becone a general Scottish Politics thread, in which case the news that Ruth "I'm giving up the leadership to spend more time with my family" Davidson is to be in the HoL concerns me more.
Morally reprehensible behaviour from Mackay though not, as I understand it, illegal. Looks like the Sun have been sitting on the story until today. Its all in the timing.
Yep, again I'm looking forward to seeing the mental gymnastics to link this to independence. "Derek Mackay likes young boys so... [reasons] ...and that's why Scotland can't be independent!"
.....what the absolute **** was he thinking?
Erm!
Desperately hoping for Scotland to go and so I can claim my Scottish heritage, get a job in Edinburgh and my EU passport too.
Working in Edinburgh? Bugger that 😂
If you want to move to Edinburgh then why wait? Move now and you'll be on the electoral roll come any future IndyRef. You don't have to claim "Scottish Heritage", especially not for Edinburgh. IIRC around 16% of its inhabitants were born in England and/or claim to be English.
*waves *
Not qualified yet (take another year or two).
But why not Edinburgh? When I was up there to cycle the Capital Trail it really impressed me.
I'm hearing the council actually has the balls to take on the car lobby and try to create a livable city.
You have some world-class biking and nature on the doorstep.
Culturally vibrant city, lovely location, good pubs, venues, the fringe festival etc.
Being in the EU would be the icing on the cake.
I'd love to live there!
Looks like things might be accelerating. I think we can thank the Loyalists for a lot of this movement.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18531565.latest-poll-finds-support-scottish-independence-54/
In the early days of this pandemic, there seemed to be a bit of unity across the UK, and I was of the opinion that it was a bit of a setback for indy, but if it meant a quicker escape route out of this by a collaborative approach, it would be worth it.
I think I jumped the gun a bit, it's been anything but United.
I'm moving back to Scotland this week after 31 years of being away. When I moved to England, I found it more tolerant and open having suffered the travails of a religiously segregated education system and limited job prospects, post-Thatcher industrial landscape. I expect that once the impact of the UK's catastrophic pandemic and Brexit really take hold, then that 54% is likely to grow.
That’s really brightened my day, thank you.
I know it was commissioned by a pro Indy group but anything remotely resembling good news is welcome.
Support in Wales is also growing.
YouGov survey for ITV Wales and Cardiff University published at the beginning of June showed 25% of people in Wales backed independence, a 4% increase from the previous survey in January.
Way behind Scotland but momentum is picking up.
I know it was commissioned by a pro Indy group but anything remotely resembling good news is welcome.
According to Scotland Goes Pop it was a full survey too, not a sub-sample. That just means that it is likely to be more accurate.
The survey, which asked 1070 Scottish residents over the age of 16 found support for independence was 54% to 46%.
So it only polled 1070 residents?, Im all in for independence but thats a tiny amount polled.
So now is a great time for the SNP/Scottish Govt to demonstrate leadership of how to manage/rule a small northern European country and feal with the fallout of the pandemic. Demonstrate to those who want to stay as part of the UK what can be done to grow the economy, get education restarted and improve the quality of life for everyone in Scotland. So far not good on the economy and even worse for education, but still plenty of time. Of course Scotland should be measuring itself against all European countries not just England, Wales and NI.
So it only polled 1070 residents?, Im all in for independence but thats a tiny amount polled.
Thats about a normal sample size for a poll.
This might be worth a read https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/13/political-poll-results-polling-industry-data
YouGov for example use samples in the 1500-2000 range
https://yougov.co.uk/about/panel-methodology/research-qs/
When I moved to England, I found it more tolerant and open having suffered the travails of a religiously segregated education system
This may be the first time ive posted in this type of thread but central belt by any chance? you wont find much of this bollox elsewhere so please try not to tar the rest of us with this.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree it's worse in the central belt, religious segregation is a nationwide load of bollocks
@sadmadalan Not that much the Scottish government can do as most of the economic powers still lie at Westminster. Not just my view but also that of Prof Anton Muscstelli on Radio Shortbread this morning. That's not to say that the Scottish Government shouldn't use the limited powers they do have.
Muscatelli
Independence with anything less than a 60% majority would be a bit pointless.