So far as I can see Westminster can close down Holyrood if it chooses to. It would need an act of Parliament to do so rather than just a change of UK government policy. Consent from Holyrood would be nice but it's not required. Westminster or this current govt is already ripping holes in the Scotland Act by retaining powers that were legally devolved although in practice operated by the EU. Holyrood did not consent to Westminster reclaiming those powers but this made no difference at all.
Seem to be a lot of people banking on Boris to do the right thing and use some intelligence.
Oh dear Oh dear Oh dear.......
Yes that is how it works but you missed it would also have to pass a vote in both houses. Westminster cannot unilaterally alter the scotland act.
Neither can Holyrood
What is this issue?
Starter for 10
Crown Office led by a Holyrood executive cabinet member restricting the Scottish Parliament from publishing information that is already legally in the public domain.
Unless iS pulls off a massive deal ahead of day 1 combining it’s UK and EU relationships it drops into the default position in regard to the rUK-EU deal.
Ah, so there is a way we drop out of the UK and straight into the EU - thanks for clearing that up.
Ah, so there is a way we drop out of the UK and straight into the EU – thanks for clearing that up.
Not what I said, I was talking about turning the UK-EU agreement into a iS-EU-rUK agreement.
The day 1 entry of iS into the EU would be best described as a Unicorn, should iS be able to pull off this feat then iS would not need a iS-rUK trading agreement as Brussels has a current arrangement and border checks and customs paperwork are already settled.
Unlikely as the EU will want to understand iS position and that won't be known until sometime after independance based on the negotiating practices of Westminster during Brexit.
Crown Office led by a Holyrood executive cabinet member restricting the Scottish Parliament from publishing information that is already legally in the public domain.
Crown office decisions are politically independent.
That info is NOT in the public domain. Its subject to a court order from a judge that it NOT be published as the complainants could be identified from it. So what the Crown office did was enforce the trial judges decision. correct in law. Now another judge could order the publication but the crown office did the right thing
Neither can Holyrood
Correct. Who sid they could? do you now accept that Westminster does not have the power?
ps - I have read the reports on the exchange with the deputy speaker and Liam fox and the deputy speaker does not say what you claimed
Once again - base your argument on fact not on what you want and do not give your opinions as fact.
big_n_daft
I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues.
Oh, yes please.
That is just the right sort of crisis to trigger the Scottish govt using the Claim of Right to announce independence.
Dissolve the devolved govt and reopen the Scottish Parliament.
Be a bit messy, but that didn't stop the Iron Curtain countries.
Oh, yes please.
That is just the right sort of crisis to trigger the Scottish govt using the Claim of Right to announce independence.
Boris is clueless
But the spectator crew: unionist Scots, Andrew Neil, fraser Nelson (they've almost single handedly driven the salmonsd hooha in the media) & the pol eds wife is Johnsons press secretary & far more capable at PR than cummings etc
They're running the show now & won't be stupid enough to hand the SNP that kind of bonus
Crown Office led by a Holyrood executive cabinet member restricting the Scottish Parliament from publishing information that is already legally in the public domain.
is it already in the public domain? are you sure its legally there? the rules around jigsaw identification are rather complex. If Mr Salmond and his legal team, are convinced that publishing the content of those documents is not contempt of court - then I'm sure he's quite capable of putting it online himself. If the Spectator or any other media are also sure its not contempt to publish it they could also make the content even more public than it ever would be on a Scottish government website. Of course, if they were wrong Lady Dorian might be rather unimpressed.
If the Spectator or any other media are also sure its not contempt to publish it they could also make the content even more public than it ever would be on a Scottish government website.
They did by publishing it in full bar one redaction to avoid identifying a individual.
They then went and got confirmation from Lady Dorian that publication was legal. The Scottish Parliament published it for nearly a day. The Crown Office/SNP government insisted on redactions. These were redactions about the FM breaking the ministerial code. As such redactions would take those issues outside the remit of the two inquiries why do you think they were ordered?
So it's out there, legally, the redactions demanded were because..... The Scottish Parliament rolled over and complied because......
ps – I have read the reports on the exchange with the deputy speaker and Liam fox and the deputy speaker does not say what you claimed
Yet you fail to include a Hansard quote
What did she say?
Crown office decisions are politically independent.
That info is NOT in the public domain. Its subject to a court order from a judge that it NOT be published as the complainants could be identified from it. So what the Crown office did was enforce the trial judges decision. correct in law. Now another judge could order the publication but the crown office did the right thing
No the committee can and did publish on the Scottish Parliament website a less redacted version. The Crown Office redactions did not relate to jigsaw identification but accusations the the FM broke the ministerial code.
Report on the hearing on and revised judgement by Lady Dorian here
www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alex-salmond-inquiry-high-court-publishes-judges-full-reasons-relation-spectator-court-case-3136795%3famp
Example of redactions here (yes it's the daily mail)
https://www.****/news/article-9289975/Alex-Salmond-forced-WITHDRAW-bombshell-evidence.html
You really should invoke hattersleys rule. When in a hole stop digging. You really are looking foolish with your fact free rants
They are better than they were squirrelking but somewhat anti nuclear 🙂
I don't really care about the nuclear issue, realistically that ships long sailed for this generation. But the local that tried to run for Westminster last time is a proper eejit, nasty git as well.
It’s the default position
In regard to the status the EU affords iS on day one, it’s not in the EU (yet or maybe never), it’s not a party to the rUK-EU agreement, it therefore has the status in that agreement of “third country” in regard to rules of origin. I would argue that is the default position
So it's opinion then. Why pretend otherwise? Still, got there after a load of waffle...
I think it was on this thread someone asking who to vote for to make the most pro independence MSPs
If you are in Highlands and Islands yo have Andy Wightman who used to be a green now standing as an independent. land reform and raptor protection are two of his key issues. Dunno why he left the greens tho
Sounds strangely familiar, the lack of acknowledgement towards his reported concerns from the Greens just serves to confirm them IMO.
Dunno why he left the greens tho
Finger on the pulse of Scottish politics there TJ. I thought you were a bit of a Green.
After 2 years of Yes leads
2 polls this weekend show No with a lead
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1368357470159187972?s=19
There will be a few sighs of relief in SNP HQ about that.
Tbh that's just noise, support for indy is still about 50%, in spite of shambles at holyrood
Indy is happening now whether snp wanted it or not
I’d guess that could be a vaccine bounce? Maybe a very small response to EU protectionism re the Australian doses.
Sarwar sacks a candidate for daring to discuss possible labour support for a second referendum
He really is going full unionist old skool labour isn't he.
I really despair as i so want to see a labour party in Scotland that works for the people of Scotland but they seem to be disappearing down a plughole.
Tbh that’s just noise, support for indy is still about 50%, in spite of shambles at holyrood
Alternatively......
Support for indy is only at 50%, in spite of the shambles at Westminster.
Alternatively……
Support for indy is only at 50%, in spite of the shambles at Westminster.
Yep, but have you actually attempted to have a decent conversation with an average voter?
He really is going full unionist old skool labour isn’t he.
He's probably channelling Keir Hardie, the Scot who helped form the labour party and who was a MP for both English and Welsh constituencies
Or is he now disowned as no longer one of the "people of Scotland"
Sarwar sacks a candidate for daring to discuss possible labour support for a second referendum
didn't see anything on the BBC about that oddly enough. What have they got to be scared off giving another referendum.
poah - its basically tribalism. labour in Scotland have considered the SNP the enemy since losing power to the extent of anti snp pacts with the tories. So anything the SNP want MUST be opposed even if it leads to electoral suicide
also london labour are scared of being caught in "relying on the SNP" type nonsense in unionist / right wing media
Yep, but have you actually attempted to have a decent conversation with an average voter?
Define "average voter" for me and I'll let you know. I'd have thought it more the job of the people doing opinion polls to seek out a broad cross-section of society (I'm not sure there really is such a thing as an "average voter").
And I'm maybe being thick, but not sure how it relates to the point I raised?
I think it’s a mistake to assume that people will react to the UKs handling of the pandemic in a way that seems obvious to you.
also london labour are scared of being caught in “relying on the SNP” type nonsense in unionist / right wing media
Or they have realised that if your majority depends on a separatist party, when you separate you don't have a majority....
It's beyond me how the party of Keir Hardie could ever be anything but for the Union
its basically tribalism
Whereas the SNP are just "civic"
Maybe its the SNP weakening poll numbers
but Im surprised Johnson has fallen into this trap
https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1370134224934682630
I'm fairly confident that even if the SNP win a majority our lovely Tory government will ignore the irony and reject their mandate for another referendum as less than half the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP.
thats 3 pts on the SNP vote just there!
I’m fairly confident that even if the SNP win a majority our lovely Tory government will ignore the irony and reject their mandate for another referendum as less than half the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP.
Leaving aside the irony bit about the last Westminster election, what happens in the scenario where the SNP win the majority of seats, but (because the No vote is split over multiple parties) the majority of voters vote for parties opposed to holding a second referendum? That's the scenario we had in the last Westminster election.
In that case by refusing a second referendum Westminster will be doing what the SNP demand, ie listening to the wishes of the Scottish people. So everyone should be happy.
Leaving aside the irony bit about the last Westminster election, what happens in the scenario where the SNP win the majority of seats, but (because the No vote is split over multiple parties) the majority of voters vote for parties opposed to holding a second referendum? That’s the scenario we had in the last Westminster election.
Surely PR makes that much less likely to happen
Boris will listen to the people, the people who put him in power, the northern gammons and the southern middle Englanders and they won't want them uppity Scots leaving. Its got nothing to do with votes north of the border, there's nothing the Scots can do to compel Boris to authorise a referendum.
Surely PR makes that much less likely to happen
Possibly. However we don't have full PR (something I'd like to see at both Holyrood and Westminster). The Scottish system was in theory designed to prevent any one party gaining an overall majority (a good thing in any parliament I reckon). However what wasn't factored in was one issue dominating an entire election.
, what happens in the scenario where the SNP win the majority of seats, but (because the No vote is split over multiple parties) the majority of voters vote for parties opposed to holding a second referendum? That’s the scenario we had in the last Westminster election.
Cannot happen under the electoral system used - deliberately set up that way to try to prevent the SNP getting into power
they will mop up the constituency seats but as a result will get very few on the top up lists which are there to ensure proportionality Its not totally proportionate but its close. You need 50% of the vote to get a majority
there’s nothing the Scots can do to compel Boris to authorise a referendum.
No but there are a number of routes that do not need his permission.
No but there are a number of routes that do not need his permission.
All ruled out by Nicola Sturgeon.
they will mop up the constituency seats but as a result will get very few on the top up lists which are there to ensure proportionality Its not totally proportionate but its close. You need 50% of the vote to get a majority
So how do we know if the bulk of voters are for or against a second referendum?
