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Action may be taken against people who use wood burning stoves....
About time too. I spend my working days trying the make the world you live in a nicer place, cleaner rivers, air, land and water and you wood burners want to go back to the industrial revolution levels of smog and crap in the air.
Sorry wrong forum.
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/29/wood-burning-stove-ban-will-not-be-enforced-against-householders ]Old news & no need to panic..[/url]
Give me another free option of heating my house and i may consider a change then, But seeing as i live in desolate galloway and have free seasoned wood to burn i doubt i'd change to another source - i guess the argument for restricting stove use may hold more weight in a built up suburban area.
About time too. I spend my working days trying the make the world you live in a nicer place, cleaner rivers, air, land and water and you wood burners want to go back to the industrial revolution levels of smog and crap in the air.
Just keeping you in a job,
Bit like when the cleaners in school used to moan that we had made "too much of a mess" ^^
Is the shite that comes out of my kerosene fuelled boiler better than what comes out of my stove?
Michael Gove, the Environment Secretary, is to launch a consultation in the New Year which will examine pollutants caused by wet wood and smoky coal.
I wonder what Michael Gove uses to heat his house (apart from burning human souls of course).
Michael Gove, the Environment Secretary, is to launch a consultation in the New Year which will examine pollutants caused by wet wood and smoky coal.
People are burning wet wood? What with, an Oxy Acetylene torch?
you wood burners want to go back to the industrial revolution levels of smog and crap in the air.
I don't think anyone is planing on trying to build one of these.
[img]
[/img]I think they're just trying to make it look a bit warmer while the real polution is being done by the central heating.
McMoonter probably is.
Meh... *flings another couple of 26" High Rollers on the fire*
^^Best thing for them.
No point in filling up the local tip.
Mine is excellent ...
And I look up at all the A380s flying people off to Dubai for the weekend ...
And the cars on the A27 ...
Blimey you lot really have no idea do you?
I raised something on here a couple of weeks ago. It turns out my neighbour doesn't have certified installation and the council don't know if it's a DEFRA stove. He has now to get it 'certified' - I've saved the ass killing his family !!
We are in a clean air area and he was burning any old 'sheite' up it. That's now stopped as the council went round. Bob the dodgy builder.
My mate at work lives in an area where there are no clean air rules, but he has a DEFRA log burner that is certified.
Better/firmer controls are needed, for sure. But existing rules for burning rubbish and building materials outdoors are so meekly/weakly enforced in my area, I suspect that might be worth addressing sooner.
Anyway, a good short summary of current discussions for anyone who agrees that they may "have no idea".
Balls. Wood burning has existed as long as humans. Better to get rid of the pollution from holiday makers jets, recreational cars, computer powering electricity, pollution from making mobile phones etc. Things that create a problem not something that was here before politicians and environmental idiots were invented.
I'd guess that the gorse/Heather burn I saw last week puts more smoke into the air. It's a typical Government move sweat the small stuff.
Why if your house is on mains electric and gas do you need a log burner (and pizza oven)
If every middle class family in the land gets one, which appears to be what’s happening, then of course pollution will go up
How is mains electricity and gas produced Dunc?
This thread is hilarious. It's always someone else's problem isn't it?
I only burn tanalised offcuts and peat on mine. I've had it in 8 years or so, so way before the middle class trendiness. Do i also go to hell?
It must be oh so nice to cast ye judgement from the ivory towers (which I assume are on mains gas )
The rest of us who don't have the option of mains gas ....we must freeze ?
Perhaps I can rip the stove out and get the 3 open fires the house was built with reinstated
Why if your house is on mains electric and gas
It doesn't.
Will most likely end up in wood fuel having to be accredited, similar to how chip is for those claiming payments on biomass systems.
This will be a twenty page document that will require us to just tick a box to confirm that we store our logs in a shed before sale. No one will ever inspect our yard, which is a shame, because we probably exceed any requirement they could dream up.
Also spending my days making the world a nice place.
He has now to get it 'certified' - I've saved the ass killing his family !!
Wow. How did you manage that? Was he going to drop the stove on their heads? You must feel really smug.
Clean Air Act came about for a reason.
Log burners are fine, like diesels, in sparsely populated areas where the smoke can quickly be dispersed. They have no place in towns and cities. Nobody is saying that nobody should have them but that having one when there are more appropriate methods is just fashion and nothing else.
As an analogy there is a house 100m or so down the street from me, whenever it has its stove on you can smell it. Fine in small doses but if everyone was doing it there would be issues.
As for how electricity is generated, in the main we seem to be using the decay heat of uranium fission and hydro power up here mainly, care to guess how much pollution that generates? Most of the country seems to be on gas now that the big coal stations are being shut down but even in a coal station you get economies of scale meaning it's far more efficient than your small scale burner and that's before you even get into lost heat and using back boilers to run a more efficient central heating system (radiation alone is not efficient hence the stove top fans).
Pollution like that there radioactive stuff that the only solution for is too bury in a big hole...yeah that nuclear fission doesnt produce any of that.
Epic levels of whataboutery on this thread 😀
I have a clean air act certified burner and so it can't be turned right down to the point you get incomplete combustion and lots of smoke. I live in a clean air act zone and can only burn smokeless coal. As the wood market is wholly unregulated I do not know how they will solve that.
Given the cock up with lying cheating dirty diesels that has resulted in no retrospective action or even a change in how emissions based road fund license, I doubt they will do much.
Enforcement of the existing regulations would be a start.
My Dad was telling me earlier this week that there is a real shortage of hardwood logs for sale with the local supplier ..
We live on the edge of one of Europe's largest man made forests 😯 !
As you say timber, I could see an accreditation system for wood fuel sellers being brought in. IF it were done well it could achieve an improvement. However its done it would likely push prices of wood up a chunk which might reduce the amount burnt by those that have a choice.
Looking at Scandinavian countries they burn loads and have made big strides by education of the user and better stove technology. I'd happily not burn on bad air days if they were well announced.
New stove regs come soon..err 2022? Not quite sure, bit there is something to be said for stopping the sale of older stoves that don't comply, not just leaving it to the user to make an informed choice.
We live on the edge of one of Europe's largest man made forests
It’s pine though.
Squirrel king, what is it you smell from your neighbour? I can smell a distinct smell from 2 or 3 close neighbours burning coal, a smell that makes me think of steam engines. When I burn wood it is usually odourless, other than for a few minutes sometimes after a new log, but then I season my own wood for 2+ years and run my stove hard, very hard. Being a DEFRA approved stove it is hard to run it slow, but I ensure I don't. Perhaps your neighbour doesn't run the stove well.
My view is stoves are great, if run sensibly. I do understand that there are plenty of fools that don't and education can make limited impact, stove design limited impact, regulation limited impact unless backed by enforcement.... Which leaves the blanket ban, that would be a shame in my view.
Yes ..the majority belongs to the Pine family ..Sitka Spruce to be exact ..however there is still a significant area of deciduous woodland with more being given over each year ..
Your point being ?
A bit of myth busting education about softwood Vs hardwood would possibly be good. Soft wood seasons faster, is readily available, and burns hotter and cleaner once dry. Hardwood has its place too but so many uneducated users chasing hardwood combined with sellers without the space to season 2-3 years and we get a lot of damp Oak, Ash etc going in stoves
Yes ..the majority belongs to the Pine family ..Sitka Spruce to be exact ..however there is still a significant area of deciduous woodland with more being given over each year ..
Your point being ?
It’ll take decades for the hardwood to grow, Kielder is about 90% pine if not more. Your comment about being the shortage despite where you live is void, the man-made pine forests are very much one of the main reasons why there's a shortage.
but then I season my own wood for 2+ years and run my stove hard, very hard
I think that is the most pretentious string of words I have EVER had the misfortune to read.
A bit of myth busting education about softwood Vs hardwood would possibly be good. Soft wood seasons faster, is readily available, and burns hotter and cleaner once dry
There's a certain irony in this post. The hardwood vs softwood argument isn't as simple as this. Myth busting education is indeed needed. 😉
environmental idiots
Well this idiot has been working with people who have spent their entire careers ensuring there isn’t horrific chemicals and pollution in rivers and groundwater so you can have clean water, fish in the streams and kids/adults can use that water without becoming ill. One colleague was recognised earlier this year for turning one river from an open septic sewer to a stream which you can canoe down, there’s fish in there now and you can pretty much drink it without treatment.
My work involves me working with companies to make sure they don’t poison the ground and air around them, and spending months building cases to ensure people who commit environmtal crimes are brought to justice. You know, people who will gladly dump toxic chemicals and asbestos where kids play and in the countryside.
You live a healthier and longer life, without chronic respiratory issues or bodies poisoned with lingering environmental problems.
So I might be an “environmental idiot” in your eyes, but at least I’m not a selfish cretin. Keep burning stuff if you want, and wait for me to knock on your door one day, I’ll enjoy every second of it.
Well newrobdob, while I applaud your intent, this:
wait for me to knock on your door one day, I’ll enjoy every second of it.
just makes you sound like someone who flunked police school.
Sorry, but with posts like that you're very unlikely to change people's minds. You'll probably achieve quite the opposite.
Mine is excellent ...
And I look up at all the A380s flying people off to Dubai for the weekend ...
And the cars on the A27 ...
That kind of thinking is why we're screwed as a species.
wrightyson - Member
I only burn tanalised offcuts and peat on mine. I've had it in 8 years or so, so way before the middle class trendiness. Do i also go to hell?
😯
Treated timber, when burnt, let off all sorts of poisonous chemicals. It’s reallt really bad and you should not do it at all.
just makes you sound like someone who flunked police school.Sorry, but with posts like that you're very unlikely to change people's minds. You'll probably achieve quite the opposite.
I probably would flunk it. Never tried though. I just can’t stand people’s attitudes towards the environment, they complain on forums like this one about things like VW and the emissions scandal, only buying locally, buying natural products etc etc but when it comes to making a status symbol like a log burner at risk they suddenly don’t care any more.
One stand out thing at university was when I was studying indoor pollution. The professor who was an expert in it said he’d never have a fire in his house because they were so bad for your health. That’s before the smoke even gets outside!
Drac
I would hardly call the planting of in excess of 100k+ of hardwood trees each year insignificant ..but despite this there is still a considerable area of mature deciduous woodland ...
Conceding to your point that there is currently in excess of 90% ( 98% ) pine..this still means that there is 5 square miles of hardwood trees within the forest..eventually this will increase to 8% of the total forest
The point I was making was that even the supplier who has access to this timber is finding it difficult and more expensive to source and supply ..
I really hadn't envisaged having to justify in such great detail my original comment .
Fortunately my pops has his own private woodland to go at.. 😀
The point I was making was that even the supplier who has access to this timber is finding it difficult and more expensive to source and supply ..
Which is very valid and makes more sense.
I use to get my wood for free just had to seek it and cut, now the wood I buy often comes from the same sources I was wood from.
Squirrel king, what is it you smell from your neighbour? I can smell a distinct smell from 2 or 3 close neighbours burning coal, a smell that makes me think of steam engines. When I burn wood it is usually odourless, other than for a few minutes sometimes after a new log, but then I season my own wood for 2+ years and run my stove hard, very hard. Being a DEFRA approved stove it is hard to run it slow, but I ensure I don't. Perhaps your neighbour doesn't run the stove well.
Definitely wood, they have it laid out in their front porch thing (50's quarter villa/mews flat depending where you live) plus no sulphur as per coal. As you say though they could be running it badly.
Pollution like that there radioactive stuff that the only solution for is too bury in a big hole...yeah that nuclear fission doesnt produce any of that.
I didn't say waste free, I said pollution free.
pollution
p??lu??(?)n/
noun
the presence in or introduction into the environment of a substance which has harmful or poisonous effects.
If radioactive waste got introduced into the environment then we'd be in big trouble. FWIW burning coal releases several times more radioisotopes than a nuclear station would ever be allowed to before being shut down.
but when it comes to making a status symbol like a log burner at risk they suddenly don’t care any more.
That's it for me. Burners are fine when used sustainably but as soon as they become status symbols for people who don't really know how to use them or need them they should be regulated.
I just can’t stand people’s attitudes towards the environment
Sure, very noble (and fwiw I agree where there's a sensible alternative source of heat and it's a built up area), but surely you must understand that saying things like that will just antagonise people, rather than engender them.
This thread needs more edukator.
The middleclasstrackworld angst is strong here. We'll have to prise their stoves from their cold dead hands!
Wood Stove Taxation is the solution. Just need to elevate the victimhood status before targeting the evil overlords.
Rural west Wales here, good luck....just about every home around me has an open fire or stove...including us.
Nobody is on the gas mains, some people have kerosene tanks for their boilers and a crappy form of central heating running but a log burner still seems the most cost efficient around here.
Built up areas, yeah sure, I understand....still don't like the regulation and the finger wagging though.
derek_starship - Member
but then I season my own wood for 2+ years and run my stove hard, very hard
Bell
EndI think that is the most pretentious string of words I have EVER had the misfortune to read.
That's a shame as it wasn't what I was trying to do. There's no need to be sweary.
If radioactive waste got introduced into the environment then we'd be in big trouble.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster ]Yup[/url]
Okay, you're either deliberately misinterpreting my point or just being obtuse for the sake of it. Either way I'm not bothering with this one.
Sorry. That was way too strong.
Just a little!
derek_starship - Member
@neilnevillSorry. That was way too strong.
Happy Christmas / holidays
Thanks for the apology, I'm very impressed, it's not the stw way! happy Christmas to you too.
Old tennis shoes, I'd be keen to read whatever your hinting at. From reading I've done there are 2 phases of the burn cycle that polute, the start-cold log and cold air leads to incomplete combustion of the volatiles, and the end - cooling charcoal doesn't burn completely and carbon particles are emitted. In between, a hot stove with good secondary air, is pretty clean. My assumption (it is an assumption so I'm keen to learn if I'm wrong) is that since softwood ignited and emits heat faster than hard, due to its higher lignin content, the 1st polluting phase should be shorter, unless the volatiles emitted are huge and outweigh the shorter warm up. and since it's lower cellulose content leads to less charcoal the second phase is also less. If there's more to it, or I've got it wrong, I'd be keen to know. What wood pollutes most and least?
Okay, you're either deliberately misinterpreting my point or just being obtuse for the sake of it. Either way I'm not bothering with this one.
As for how electricity is generated, in the main we seem to be using the decay heat of uranium fission and hydro power up here mainly, care to guess how much pollution that generates?.
I was addressing your insinuation that nuclear and hydro power don't generate any 'pollution'.
You wanted to argue semantics over the dictionary definition of words, I provided you an example of where waste became a 'pollutant' (and will be 'polluting' for the next 20 000 years).
With regard to nuclear 'waste' - lets hope it stays where it's meant to over the next billion years or so until it decays.
Anyone who preaches about the environment really needs to make sure they are squeaky clean first. I bet a look around the home of some of the above would reveal some uncomfortable truths.
The title of this thread is a bit Daily Mail isn't it? There's nothing saying "goodbye to wood stoves" in that article. But then, some people don't like letting their hearts be ruled by facts.
The professor who was an expert in it said he’d never have a fire in his house because they were so bad for your health. That’s before the smoke even gets outside!
Hmmm, my late mother sat by an open fire most evenings for most of her life, I wonder if that's what did for her? She was only 96 when we lost her...
Anyway, [s]as it's quite warm tonight[/s] now I've read this thread, I won't light our log burner.
Anyone who preaches about the environment really needs to make sure they are squeaky clean first.
I could spend all day burning diesel-soaked mattresses in my front garden, and yet still be completely correct in saying that wood burning stoves pollute the air.
🙄Hmmm, my late mother sat by an open fire most evenings for most of her life, I wonder if that's what did for her? She was only 96 when we lost her.
My nan died in her late 80's. Smoked all her life. See what I did there...
I bet a look around the home of some of the above would reveal some uncomfortable truths.
Some probably still drive diesels.
Three_Fish - Member
Anyone who preaches about the environment really needs to make sure they are squeaky clean first.
I could spend all day burning diesel-soaked mattresses in my front garden, and yet still be completely correct in saying that wood burning stoves pollute the air.POSTED 42 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
But they're not preaching that they are correct. They are preaching that they are RIGHT. Subtle but massive difference!
Does burning wood create pollution? Does burning lots of wood create lots of pollution? What is the correlation between the amount of wood burned and the amount of pollution produced? Do any of those answers change because somebody also burns a diesel-soaked mattress?
You need to read the OPs posts again instead of asking pointless questions.
I'm talking to you. You said that "anyone who preaches about the environment really needs to make sure they are squeaky clean first.". I disagree.
that reminds me - the missus wants a nice fire tonight.
But this is Norway and almost everyone has a wood burner
Ok, you've bored me with your semantics.
Anyway, just for the OP. I know it's mild, but this one's for you. The boiler is still running to heat the rest of the house, but as we live in a smokeless zone in a fairly busy town, and got a stove for the fun of it, I might as well...
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But this is Norway and almost everyone has a wood burner
Oh god!! Won't somebody please think of the children!!
[send kids out to shed to split logs and polish the coal]
Old tennis shoes, I'd be keen to read whatever your hinting at.
Soft wood seasons faster, is readily available, and burns hotter and cleaner once dry
This is a sweeping generalisation. Birch will dry quicker and burn as hot as larch, cedar etc. Softwoods such as Yew and Box take as long as Beech and longer than Ash and Poplar to season.
My point is that if you want to educate people, you need to consider individual species, not just choose soft or hardwood species.
It's not difficult to see why folk are confused, there's myriad conflicting, incomplete and confusing material published on the subject - much of it to support individual producers marketing strategies.
My experience is from 15 years, cutting, splitting, stacking, seasoning and burning firewood to heat our previous home. IME a mix of quicker and slower burning wood provides the best heat. Oh and NEVER shut a stove down to try and keep it in overnight - poor combusion = tar = eventual chimney fire.
Thankfully our new gaf is on mains gas and I'm happy (for now) to have a break from all that work. 🙂
I'm pretty rural and have two stoves. Gas is not an option. Oil takes care of most of the heating, but normally just run one stove to save on oil.
I make a point of not burning any shite, just a mix of various dry wood.
Ah yes, i did make a sweeping generalisation there, you're right it is very species dependant, drying and burning, i agree
What does this mean?
NEVER shut a stove down to try and keep it in overnight - poor combusion = tar = eventual chimney fire.
Some folk advocate closing all the vents in a bid to try to keep a stove smouldering all night so that you can simply add more fuel and open the vents to get it going again in the morning.
You reallu shouldn't do it as the lower smouldering temperatures mean that combustion is incomplete and tar is deposited as it cools on the sides of the flue.
Let the tar build up by repeatedly doing it and then have a hot fire which increases heat in the flue to a point where the tar can catch fire and set the flue alight - not good.
This is a sweeping assertion, but I suspect that the OP and everyone else on this thread is failing to focus on what really matters, which is not what sources of energy we should be using for heat etc., and in what proportions, but rather that as a society we need to reduce consumption of all energy sources and vastly improve improve the energy efficiency of our homes and workplaces.
Unfortunately that is potentially much more difficult to achieve than installing a new woodburner or any other form of heating.