Other battery tech is coming
They seem to be getting better at recharging/discharging, but capacity doesn't seem to be going up that quickly.
Most interesting thing I read about recently was flow batteries for large scale grid storage.
The Teslas look better in the flesh whereas the BMW ithingies are just awful, all angles and intakes for no apparent reason.
Clarkson seemed to like it though.
Most interesting thing I read about recently was flow batteries for large scale grid storage.
Didn't I link you to that? 😉 I certainly like it 🙂
Lithium batteries are quite old tech, but the learning rate/capacity is still growing. I should be busy writing my thesis about this right now, but yeah there's a little more life/growth left in Lithium batteries yet.
The main reason Tesla is doing so well is that it is so big and heavy that it is able to carry a HUGE number of batteries and therefore compete on a more level playing field against large, heavy fast petrol/diesel cars.
A much better way is to go lightweight, you can save .5-.9% fuel for each 1% weight reduction anyway - so an ultra-light weight electric vehicle will be much more efficient again. The issue is overcoming the market's inertia for larger, more feature-packed cars [when you realise that a crossover sells for 50%-100% more than a hatchback but has the same development costs; and the markup for hatchbacks is 5%ish you understand the problem, I think], oh and almost all cars are made of pressed steel which is unbeliveably expensive to tool-for and really heavy. How to compete? DISRUPT 😀
Interestingly, Gordon Murray's new ultra-lightweight production system [ http://www.istreamtechnology.co.uk/1/iSTREAM.html ] is able to level that playing field [production cost], but after a few years trying to get it used for small cars, they just won their first major contract for TVR of all things [ http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/tvr-v8-sports-car-gordon-murray-istream-cosworth-2015-06-03 ] ?!
Anyway, it might well help drive acceptance of this new manufacturing tech, and allow more small manufacturers to create ultra-light vehicles that don't look like suppositories.
As a bonkers alternative - flow cell car* anyone!?
*doesn't actually exist 🙁
Had a ride in one of those Teslas at the end of last year as a Taxi from Monaco to Nice airport.
A fantastic piece of Engineering.. Driver reckoned the 0-60 time was close to 4 seconds, which puts it in supercar territory.
I'd have one tomorrow...
Just use the spent lithium in medication.
I take lithium pills daily.
Loved the i8 I got to drive at the weekend. Did look a bit 'concept car' but was a rocket.
Best hybrid for me lately has been the hybrid buses in Oxford. Most excellent.
I drove one last year, they are awesome and that's from a mega petrol head.
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The latest four wheel drive versions of the Model S (P85D) are 700hp, have a quoted range of 300 miles, spacious (can be specified with 7 seats), luxurious and cost little more than an equivalent AMG/M5 barge.
I also like the fact that Tesla gave up their IP a couple of years ago. Marketing perhaps, but the stated reason was to proliferate BEV tech and hence have a larger market in the future. Forward and unconventional thinking.
1 - we're going to be adding battery storage to the grid fairly soon [internationally] to help with fluctuations in supply from renewables:
We (Northern Powergrid) have already done that - albeit as a trial (Google CLNR if you're interested). It works technically and can be used for voltage support and for supporting demand or soaking up generation. However at present the batteries themselves are a tad expensive. That will probably change at some point.
Personally I prefer attaching batteries to people's homes, which is probably slightly more expensive, but combined with domestic generation and an islanding ability looks pretty good in functionality.
How big a battery would you need? 10-20kWh and about 18kW - I think Tesla are making some units a bit like that now.
freeagent - Member
Had a ride in one of those Teslas at the end of last year as a Taxi from Monaco to Nice airport.
A fantastic piece of Engineering.. Driver reckoned the 0-60 time was close to 4 seconds, which puts it in supercar territory.
I'd have one tomorrow...
The latest high spec, high power one is 0-60 in just over 3sec according to a mate who works for Tesla.
You know, I'd seen all this coming, because I like my RC cars. In the last five years or so, lipo batteries and brushless motors have transformed the RC world. Electric is now faster, quicker accelerating and has more useful run times than nitro or gas had. Plus, they are cleaner, quieter and generally nicer to work on. It's like a microcosm of the real world...
I like the way Tesla are going. Interesting times, providing a massive shake-up for the car world. I mean I like engines of all sorts from ancient locos right through to F1 but the stuff Tesla is doing is the way of the future.
Question for me is whether the infrastructure for pure-electric can be developed or whether we end up going via plug-in hybrids.
Plus are they just shifting the pollution issue from the exhaust gasses when in use to the End-Of-Life recycling part?
Possibly maybe but more likely not quite.
From what I've read, it seems the pollution is (nearly) all moved into production and the electricity generation; mass electricity generation is always more efficient than a carrying a petrol/diesel brick under your bonnet, and the battery production is not as bad as it could be as they're recycled quite well.
Overall, the pollution moves, but becomes smaller, at the same time.
I have no references or links or anything
Got the leaf now, two days and it's fab. Brought it back from the dealer in Bristol to Sussex, 160miles and no fuel costs.. Bargain.
Exterior, fairly dull... but that dash is truly hideous. Not sure a big touch screen is a great idea unless it autonatically locks when driving either.
I must be getting old but give me a set of proper dials any day.
A chap in my town here (Strathaven) has one, black, with the number plate:
"PH07 0NS"
Which is pretty ace really 🙂
And a great car besides!
I do like the Tesla an I like Mr Musk as well.
but this stuff is so 1900s , I have a vague feelin that the first cars were also battery but it got dropped in favour of internal combustion as you could get more range...
we really need to get induction loops in the road to make this stuff fly... you really can't beat electric motors to drive stuff the downers the whole battery thang...
The tesla has a mental battery swap system btw.
(Doing 300kph on the TGV last week it's eye opening this leccy stuff )
I'll wait for Hydrogen thanks!
I've been waiting for it since reading about the hydrogen economy being just around the corner when I was at school. Fifty years ago!
I regularly see a white Tesla around the industrial estate where I work, nicely understated car. Belongs to the boss of a company that does bits and servicing for executive jets, so I guess he can afford it. Given a decent lottery win I'd have the 4x4 version in a flash, as most of my mileage is well under the nominal range.
I was reading a road test of the P85D, its acceleration is apparently terrifying!
This stuff is getting much closer to the mainstream. I've just ordered a Golf GTE, which is a half way house (plug in hybrid with a 150bhp petrol engine and 105bhp electric motor). I very much hope that by the time I choose my next car there will be a fully electric option with 200 mile range for a similar price and this will be my last new internal combustion engine.
I think it will take Tesla a few years to nail the car bit of their proposition. The styling is weak and interior build quality a bit below par. There aren't any with 150k on the clock yet either, so we don't know what kills them. I'm sure they'll get there though, and the rest of the industry certainly needed/needs them as the disruptor.
I like to limit my own environmental impact where I can, but like someone else said, it's the cost benefit that really swings it. I will save about £2k a year over my similar Merc deisel. The Golf GTE actually works out slightly cheaper at purchase than the GTD spec for spec.
This is weird
After this thread appears I've seen a Tesla and an i8, never seen either on the streets before!
Tesla are doijg some amazing things. The game changer is supposed to be coming in 2017 when Tesla launch their affordable model 3 which is supposed to be around $35,000 (about £30k) with a 200 mile range. Taking into account no fuel bills a very little maintenance costs it could shake things up a bit.
There is a really interesting (long) article here:
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/05/elon-musk-the-worlds-raddest-man.html
There's a couple of Teslas and an i8 local to me, do love the Tesla, all i see with the i8 is the Porsche it's trying to 'poop' out.
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That's amazing.
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Here's the i8 for comparison.
I think the Tesla is likely to be more reliable in the long term, just because there's less to it.
Problem is a 200 mile range is rubbish for anyone outside of the main areas of the UK. For me range has to be around what you'd get out of a petrol (e.g. ~400 miles), especially as they aren't a 5 minute job to refill like petrol.
That's a pretty big generalisation - lot of people need to drive >200 miles, yes, but then they may well be able to find a supercharger and stop for an hour either at the end or along the way. Further, when there's charging points at most businesses, then it's nearly a non-issue. Tesla is working on the latter.
Problem is a 200 mile range is rubbish for anyone outside of the main areas of the UK.
That's not a problem with the car, it's a potential problem with your ownership of the car. A huge number of people never do trips that long in their second car.
The biggest issue currently is that the second car is usually a cheap runabout, and electric cars ain't cheap. If a Leaf cost £8k they'd be flying off the shelves.
Further, when there's charging points at most businesses, then it's nearly a non-issue. Tesla is working on the latter.
Announcing all the recharge points is lovely and all, but this is what I just don't see happening - are we expecting super charging points spread across the back end of nowhere to appear overnight? That kind of infrastructure takes time and money, and a lot of it.
TBH the plug in hybrid model seems like the far-more-likely-to-succeed route to make a car that works for long distance as well as around town; plug in for low cost round town or commute drives, smallish diesel block to do the mile munching.
If a Leaf cost £8k they'd be flying off the shelves.
That isn't realistic as a Leaf is more Golf / Astra sized so you're more likely looking at a minimum of £18k assuming Nissan can reduce their costs, and that's for a car that does ~100 miles. And their lies the Leafs problem it isn't sized like a 2nd car e.g. Hyundai i10, Fiat 500 VW Up/Polo, Ford Ka/Fiesta, and it is these kind of cars that routinely get bought for short journeys and are less than half the Leaf's price.
Now an electric i10 or Up with a 100 mile range at a lowish price would be a goer, but the fact it hasn't happened tells you something about where the tech is right now.
That isn't realistic
I know, that's been my point all along. That's why I said it cost was the biggest issue.
the fact it hasn't happened tells you something about where the tech is right now
No, it doesn't, go back and read my posts.
It tells you two things:
1 - There's a huge vested interest in maintaining the status quo of car manufacture [steel bodywork, far too heavy for EV's]
2 - Marketing has stunted the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1 ]development[/url] too many times to mention
"While customer reaction to the EV1 was positive, GM believed that electric cars occupied an unprofitable niche of the automobile market, and ended up crushing all their electric cars, regardless of protesting customers."
Not convinced, gfs. Lots of manufacturers are putting money into making electric cars(which they wouldn't if they thought there was no interest) but consumer takeup is slow, due to cost and/or range
They are expensive because batteries are expensive, and you need a lot. That's going to be really hard to change.
OK, I'm probably not being very clear because I'm still trying to make sense of the data myself.
The TL;DR is that price is the most important factor, yes, but...
Two points back atcha:
The lead time for developing a car is around 6-10 years, so they're [main auto manufacturers] lagging. Mass acceptance is driven slowly, so it's taken other companies to come along and grab the market in that time, and kick start it.
Did you read the report* that says battery prices are much cheaper than expected? Within a couple of years there going to be full cost parity, and in some cases there already is (such as the case with Audi in Germany)
I guess what I am saying is the time is very near, and part of this delay was due to the cars manufacturers own choices, NOT because the tech wasn't there.
To the future!
*Paywalled - here's a summary:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/04/13/3646004/electric-car-batteries-price/
I guess what I am saying is the time is very near, and part of this delay was due to the cars manufacturers own choices, NOT because the tech wasn't there.
Ok, fair enough. It sounded like you were playing the conspiracy card. Perhapas the falling cost of batteries is one reason the manufacturers are putting their money in?
On the bottom of that (interesting and encouraging) article though:
Last year, UBS, a leading Investment bank, found “the 3-year total cost of ownership (TCO) of a Tesla S model is similar to that of a comparable petrol combustion engine car such as an Audi A7,” in places like Germany
This is where Tesla have been a little sneaky, I think. High cost of batteries meant that they could only make an expensive car of significant range, so they decided to pitch the car at that price point making it a luxury car. It's easy to make an electric car go fast if you stick enough batteries in it - more cells = more current after all. So all that performance has convinced the market that it's a luxury car, which means they can pitch it against an Audi A7.
Plus that comparison compares to the petrol one with poor fuel economy - but then they'll say 'ah but it's like for like, a high performance saloon'. Fair enough, but it hasn't really done anything for the industry beyond helping its image a lot. Which is no bad thing of course. But a technological innovation it aint.
Compare the Tesla to another 4 door car designed for economy, a Mondeo ecoboost say, and it doesn't look so good.
Only because we're used to such heavy, fast cars..... as I said - marketing.
The power (and therefore weight), features and size expected by the public (manipulated over the years by the advertising) make the Tesla Roadster the only way for the BEV to break-through into the public conciseness.
Check this out:
The speeds, weight and size needed for an Urban car are *tiny*. The smallest/lightest thing you can buy at the moment is pretty-much an Up!, or, a Twizy.
The Twizy has great difficulty selling due mainly to comparisons with cars 1,000 Kg heavier, and an infrastructure dominated by the classic [heavy, steel, internal combustion] car.
This was a result of the continuation of the value/styling/aspiration concept that has been exported from the US, and all dates back to the arms/features/power race that comes hand in hand with the life-cycle of the modern automobile.
If such cars had been developed for, uhh, the last 30+ years [like the EV1, above] we'd be in a greatly better place. So, leaving oil money out of it, YES, there has been a kind of conspiracy - by the car manufacturers - to flog us a super-engineered and yet generally inappropriate product.
You'll note the Japanese, less in the thrall of the US marketing lifestyle are into small/kei cars. They have a classless appeal, and sell in big numbers there.
Here's some info from London RE mean speeds:
http://democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/documents/s22224/
TL;DR - 22 MPH Average.
Conclusion - the Ultra-light vehicle, especially the battery one is perfect for a great number of users and should be selling in huge numbers....but it isn't.
We're in a corner, though the cracks are just appearing....
Only because we're used to such heavy, fast cars..... as I said - marketing.
Not generally - why do small city cars sell so well? And they are pretty heavily marketed.
The speeds, weight and size needed for an Urban car are *tiny*
Hmm yes but I still don't think there is a marketing conspiracy. Yes, average speeds and journey times in London are good for electric cars, but when pepole buy small cars they want and/or need them to be cheap. I don't think that's marketing - the inherent concept of value for money that goes way beyond cars will tell people that a small car should be cheaper. So people don't want to spend £18k on a supermini and it's not because of marketing.
YES, there has been a kind of conspiracy - by the car manufacturers - to flog us a super-engineered and yet generally inappropriate product.
I still don't see this. Yes, an Audi A7 is over engineered, but a Hyundai i10 isn't, and that's the kind of car that's positioned as a city car.
You'll note the Japanese, less in the thrall of the US marketing lifestyle are into small/kei cars.
That's because of legislation, isn't it? And a very long cultural tradition of liking small things which I do not for one minute believe is marketing led!
There is a small section of society in London that is rich enough to afford a small electric car, high minded enough to cough up for a tiny two seater instead of a big comfy car, and doesn't need or want a car for long journeys. Which is why you see way more of them in London than anywhere else.
I still don't see this. Yes, an Audi A7 is over engineered, but a Hyundai i10 isn't, and that's the kind of car that's positioned as a city car.
Hyundai i10:
Weight: 930-960 Kg
Power: 48-64kw
Dimensions 3.6*1.7*1.5m
Max speed circa 150 KMh
Example technology:
"Era: Immobilizer, chrome radiator grille, dual-color interior, electric power steering, manual AC with heater, power windows and bumpers.
Magna: Central locking, front fog lamps, standard keyless entry, interior illumination, seat back pockets, vanity mirror, rear AC Vents and battery saver.
Sportz: Tilt steering, push button start/stop, cooled glove box, electrically adjustable mirrors, 2-DIN integrated radio+CD+MP3 player, front & rear speakers, aux-in & USB ports and chrome finish.
Asta: Rear defogger, optional driver & passenger airbags, optional ABS, rear spoiler, alloy wheels, leather wrapped steering wheel, 1 GB internal memory for audio, driver seat height adjuster, adjustable rear seat headrests and steering wheel mounted controls"
Looks pretty over-the-top to me for personal transport in a city.
As a comparison, the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy ]Twizy[/url] an L7e [the absolute heaviest a Quadracycle can be] category is <450 kg <15 KW, AND THAT'S FIRST GENERATION!
- have you seen the [url= http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/nissan/two-millionth-nissan-qashqai-built-in-record-time/ ]sales[/url] for crossovers recently? Car manufacturers don't want to sell small hatchbacks, there's no profit in them.why do small city cars sell so well
I do not for one minute believe is marketing led!
Each year, cars are getting larger, stronger and quicker. This is due to the continuation of the use of one car as suitable for all forms of personal transport, over all distances, across all types of roads/speeds for all journey types mixing/colliding with all sorts of vehicles along the way.
Take a look at small car adverts - this one picked at random:
What has that got to do with actual city transport?
The reality is this is aspirational marketing, playing on power and speed to justify the continuation of the status-quo.
Many many years ago it became apparent that the car as we know it was headed to a dead end. The huge companies have continued along that path and refused to invest in alternative technology that could have meant the common car could be very different.
Lastly - 18 grand is hugely expensive, of course. As I have said [and cited] many times it is the most important factor. The Twizy [the only Quadracycle that actually sells in this country) is £8k [plus £45/mo battery lease]. Only now that there's actually investment in BEVs are the battery prices going down.
Last word about the Twizy - Top Gear likes it [now] - as I said, finally these actually [i]small[/i] cars are getting market acceptance. Finally.
It could all have been so different.....
Tesla have a shop in the Westfield shopping centre in Shepherd's Bush. Walked past one lots, but never really spent the time to have a proper look around it.
Saw a moving one at Ascot on Saturday. Nice enough but somewhat lost against the Rolls Royces and Ferraris....
Each year, cars are getting larger, stronger and quicker.
Each model of each car does - then they bring in a new smaller one.
Toyota iQ anyone? Smart? Etc etc etc etc. If car manufacturers really didn't want us to buy small cars they'd push the prices up and stop marketing them.
What has that got to do with actual city transport?
Why keep banging on about city transport? Most people go outside their cities from time to time, and don't want the faff of hiring cars. If there's anyone who can afford an electric car and never drives outside the city, then great. But in a city you have public transport anyway (especially in London) and distances are small so the committed eco person will be cycling or taking the bus/tube.
It's not as simple as you are making out.. you really are waving the conspiracy card now. If I wanted cheap local only personal transport, and didn't wantt to cycle, I'd be on a scooter. A Twizy still doens't make sense for a lot of people.
And finally, most people who want the option of travelling decent distances, which is why range is the thing that almost everyone cites when electric cars come up.
Do you own a Twizy, gfs?
What has that got to do with actual city transport?
Why keep banging on about city transport? Most people go outside their cities from time to time, and don't want the faff of hiring cars.
Up in the north a lot of 'city' journeys actually involve an amount of faster roads, as the cities are small and its all inter-town/city journeys. In my office of 90 over half the staff have a section of their commute on dual carriageway or motorway, so they mostly own bigger cars, despite the total journey often being less than 10miles.
Its the way most of the UK has been built, suburbs, out-of-town locations etc. People dont want to be driving lightweight 'flimsy' cars on even short sections of 70mph road. And its the same reason electric cars are slow to catch, 10mile each way to work, 10mile to drop/pickup kids somewhere, nip to the big supermarket on other side of town is another 7. Thats half your range gone and people worry that if they forget to charge then they will be stuck. Ranges are going up, but people need to see other people managing before they move over themselves.
Agreed. The argument for Twizys in London would make sense if it didn't already have such a fantastic public transport network and many people still have nowhere to park even a Twizy.
Thats half your range gone
More, maybe even most of it, if you factor in the drop in range when it's cold.
I wanted a twizy but a low mileage secondhand smart convertible made a much more cheaper an practical proposition...
Twizy got a battery lease that worked out the same as the petrol I'd use and no bike rack and if feeling brave I could actually drive the smart down a motorway 🙂
you really are waving the conspiracy card now
I don't quite see what's odd about this. "Conspiracy" might be too strong a word, but, it is huge corporations protecting their interests. There's nothing unusual about that. What I am saying is that the marketing and the infrastructure have, hand in hand, developed a totally car-centric society, with the car sold as the lifestyle accessory that enables everything.
Why keep banging on about city transport
Because the point I am making is that the reason the Tesla is the first BEV to sell well is because it can compete against the huge and heavy cars most people use. Humans weigh around 50-100 kg and we're using vehicles of 800-2000 kg to transport them - this has happened through the continuation of the design requirements for totally unnecessary specifications (based on how most people actually use their cars)
All capable of speeds greatly in excess of anything needed in a city, weighing around 2x the amount needed for transporting people over the distances and speeds common in cities. And those are the smallest cars sold and sold as city cars!Toyota iQ anyone? Smart?
Most people take the tube because because London is overcrowded and the alternatives are slower. If cars were smaller and or electric this wouldn't be as much of a problem.But in a city you have public transport anyway (especially in London) and distances are small so the committed eco person will be cycling or taking the bus/tube.
And if we had a developed public transportation ecosystem with good prices and such that wouldn't be an issue. The obsession with cars has made it all very uncompetitive and difficult.don't want the faff of hiring cars
I'd be on a scooter.
And how many adults do you see on them despite being a largely more appropriate form of transport for one person and a bag of documents/food for a day's work? Not so many, they're not as safe as an enclosed vehicle or as dry or warm etc.
Further - what do most 17y/o males want for their birthday - driving lessons! Why would that be I wonder?
What is the most popular form of transport in less wealthy countries? The scooter/bemo. Why is this - less exposure to aspirational marketing and the fact that small vehicles make more sense.
And if the car was not central to our transport, then this would be much less of an issue. After all, people park at airports all the time - it's just a matter of the status quo.And finally, most people who want the option of travelling decent distances, which is why range is the thing that almost everyone cites when electric cars come up.
If we had developed a diverse transport system, if we hadn't placed all the demands on the car then it would work so much better, for everyone.
AND/OR
If the development of the electric car had been anywhere near as concerted as that of the ICE car, we'd have solved these issues years ago.
Here's a electric Porsche from 1898!
Here's a hybrid one from a year or so later:
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I'm not saying that there was a conspiracy, but that we have spent the last 120 years developing the wrong technology, and we've also applied it to every form of personal transport to the great detriment of society in general. And I am saying that this has changed our entire cognitive map [eg US road casualties circa 30,000/year - seen as normal]. So now, trying to introduce electric cars is a PITA!
It's all going out of the window anyway.
[img] 
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http://orfe.princeton.edu/~alaink/SmartDrivingCars/PDFs/MorganStanley%20040715ReportJonas.pdf
http://jalopnik.com/understand-this-chart-and-understand-the-future-of-the-1696224233
Lastly I'm saying that modern cars have grown in complexity, power and size because of the system that has been created [above] and the best way to justify/market that has been "power and speed is good" and "you need all these gizmos"
I'm going to have to bow out of this - as you can see I have written lots.
I'll get back to you when I have it all organised as my thesis.
No I don't own a Twizy, I'm trying to [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/2010-renault-twingo-12-freeway-23k-towballelectrics-bike-rack-3500-ono ]sell[/url] our car at the moment and it's a Twingo Mk.2
OK One last EDIT - warming the batteries up isn't hard. It's just bad design, like the US-centric bike designs that die in the mud.
Molgrips - you seem good at pointing out the negatives of EVs but what's the alternative? Carry on burning oil and destroying the environment? There are challenges to be overcome with electric cars, but if Elon Musk can put rockets in space and win contracts from NASA I have trust that he's the man to do it. The US already has a vast number of charging points and they're coming to the UK too. For too long we've been investing in the wrong technology that's unsustainable and dirty. The example of the Ford Ecoboost above is the culmination of over 100 years of refinement. Teslas have only been around for a few years and they already blow most cars out of the water, so with a more mature charging infrastructure just think what's possible. And of course the automotive industry is trying to protect it's own interests and profit, that's normal for big business.
I'm not anti electric car, I'm just pointing out gfs's JHJ levels of rigorous argument 🙂 too many holes in that lot to respond to on my phone.
The solution is well integrated and subsidised public transport and a readjustment of attitude, not a different kind of personal private transport. Electric cars could fill the remaining rural journeys, or maybe hydrogen
