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No way could Henderson play again on saturday.
Agreed but he should have been withdrawn with Lawes to give that option.Kruis could have played midweek if Gats knew he was getting axed.
Yes but his cystal ball didnt see Hendersons display coming which tbf nor did most others and Kruis would have had to back up from Sat to Tuesday also a huge/daft ask.
Clearly a side picked for kick/forwards strategy.
So Gatland picks a second playmaker in midfield as the previous 12 cannot pass and you criticise it as a forwards/kicking strategy. I get you dont like him but just stick to the facts, you are making yourself look stupid, again. There's enough to question/criticise anyway.
TJ me too 😉
Gatland never started Sexton and Farrell, they have only played 23 mins and now that's the favoured line up ?
AWJ being retained highlights the original mistake of not selecting Launchbury. Kruis was out most of the season and has never quite regained the form that would have made him nailed on test starter whereas Launchbury played at or near MoM level most of the year.
Now with AWJ slightly off the pace Launchbury would've been the ideal partner for Itoje - but he's not there.
Farrell at 12? Picked as a 10. Played as a 10 all tour except for injury cover. Now he's at 12. Smacks of desperation to me.
He's not gonna stop SBW. Farrell can't actually tackle very well - in case nobody's noticed.
Whatever Farrell is he is not a 12. Gonna be a stuffing. AWJ should be nowhere near the team given the quality of the locks available. Warburton I have my doubts over but at least when he came on last week he did try to contest the breakdown even if he was ineffective.
If you want a tackler, bring in Tipuric
Brilliant!
I am looking forward to seeing what the rugby forum I am on has to say about this. AA would seem like the voice of reason over there! 😉
So Gatland picks a second playmaker in midfield as the previous 12 cannot pass and you criticise it as a forwards/kicking strategy. I get you dont like him but just stick to the facts, you are making yourself look stupid, again. There's enough to question/criticise anyway.
I really don't know why you and the other can't have a dialogue without throwing insults.
Here's some facts for you. Everyone agrees Teo contained SBW last test who then opened up with Farrell on later; Farrell isn't a go-forward line busting centre, fast in retreat or a huge tackler; yes he's a play maker, but to who? Davies, Williams & Watson most likely which extends the back line outwards into touch in a team thats shown not much invention (than a few glimpses) and passes straight down the line for the most part.
Not sure how you think Farrell poses any more threat than Teo who can at least break the line. So, Farrells there to take the heat from Sexton and the first half is aimed at keeping the AB's pinned back and locked into the set piece. But unless Farrell has a monster game the AB's centres will be licking their lips and come straight down that channel and popping inside or kicking through. Teo can't pass? Well there's been more than evidence of that, not least the fact he hasn't had the opportunity to do so as he hasn't been supported properly during most of his breaks - check your famous video clips thats easy to spot if you can bear to post one that actually evidences my statement rather than highlights how this team should really be the Welsh 15.
SBW will have a field day; he picked Sexton out a couple of times last week and Farrell has a habit of tackling too high / upright so he'll probably get bounced off. Te'o took the game to him a bit and his passing isn't that bad.
Farrell works a centre for England because they play differently and look to use a bit more pace in the centres with JJ. They'd still struggle against tge AB's because the like of SBW would muller Ford.
It seems an odd choice to play Sexton and Farrell given how little game time they've had together.
The harsh reality is that whatever team is picked will probably go down by 15 pts. Lions teams will never be as slick as a well drilled club team or established international side. Hence the favoured more basic tactics.
Gatland never started Sexton and Farrell, they have only played 23 mins and now that's the favoured line up ?
He may have planned to but Faz getting injured stopped it. Who knows.
I really don't know why you and the other can't have a dialogue without throwing insults.
Saying you are making yourself stpid is hardly the insult of the century, its merely a comment on what you write. Its drivel.
yes he's a play maker, but to who? Davies, Williams & Watson most likely which extends the back line outwards into touch in a team thats shown not much invention (than a few glimpses) and passes straight down the line for the most part.
See this makes no actual sense.
AWJ being retained highlights the original mistake of not selecting Launchbury.
Yep
I was unconvinced by Teo from his time at Leinster but for me he has been one of the Lions best backs on tour. Sexton and Farrell both tackle high and I can't see both lasting beyond 50 mins. As we saw last week this is the crucial period of the game.
Farrell's no 12 eh TJ? Really tough on that bloke....first half of his career he was 'no 10' then in recent years, having played at 12, we're told he's 'no 12'. He's hardly won anything as a player at either 10 or 12 has he so maybe everyone is right. Perhaps he needs to move to 15? Or convert to league?!
*I am in no way saying that Farrell is going to mark SBW out of the game in the way O'Teo did.
I think that the changes are about right. Especially Hovis and Itoje coming in. As others have said though, leaving Launchbury at home is starting to look like an even worse idea!
I was unconvinced by Teo from his time at Leinster but for me he has been one of the Lions best backs on tour
TBF to him he has played at his best and been decent, but like Jamie Roberts for all his positives he does limit the backline especially if the 10's on tour are Sexton, Faz and Biggar. He may look better outside a Ford or Russell.
Faz certainly looked like a 12 when he helped shred the Scottish midfield this season, he also looked good passing to put Daly beyond Cuthbert.
None of this really matters if the pack dont turn it on this week.
Its drivel.
But apparently many people agreed, see above for starters. Perhaps you're unable to communicate or believe anyone other you knows anything about rugby, or perhaps you're too egotistical to admit you are wrong. Either way, why not keep the piece and desensitise your vocabulary?
Have a good day AA.
Agreed Tom on Farrell, hes played at the highest level as a 10 and 12, yet all he gets from 'fans' is criticism. Oddly the coaches, players and pundits all seem to rate him as one of the best players in the world.
Tom - I already said I would have Farrell at 10 as he has played the best of the 3 on tour IMO
He was only shoehorned into 12 for England as Jones didn't trust Fords kicking.
NZ by 25 points. Farrell to be smashed by SBW
or perhaps you're too egotistical to admit you are wrong.
or perhaps YOU are so egotistical you believe you know better than the Lion coach whilst writing stuff that is complete and utter bobbins.
check your famous video clips thats easy to spot if you can bear to post one that actually evidences my statement rather than highlights how this team should really be the Welsh 15.
Firstly feel free to provide video evidence of Teo's fine passing game, secondly Faz was English last time I looked and I'm presenting the case in favour of an English player, I'd love to have him available to Wales but he isnt.
I guess the plan is to try and play on the front foot. Can't say I expect much from the Lions in defence though, Farrell's tackling is pants.
Tom - I already said I would have Farrell at 10 as he has played the best of the 3 on tour IMOHe was only shoehorned into 12 for England as Jones didn't trust Fords kicking.
But you still think he's poo despite what he's won at a young age and how he's rated by many.
He's certainly won me over but I do worry about him against SBW who offers more than just being a lump, especially outside a 10 he's not played against much.
I guess the plan is to try and play on the front foot.
I would guess every team in the history of rugby has wanted this.
Faz's tackling is OK but he has a tendency to shoot out of the line which NZ will look to exploit.
AA - you do come over as very antagonistic at times - toning it down a bit would help the debate being civilised 😉
Yeah he does run out of the line quickly in defence a_a....England have played this way as a whole under Jones...guess it's McCall's input as defence coach. I think Farrell does it a lot of the time to minimise the risk of much bigger ball carriers getting any momentum and running through him-he's always usually into double figures for tackles when playing for England (as any inside centre would be I guess)
AA - you do come over as very antagonistic at times
I am!!
toning it down a bit would help the debate being civilised
Maybe but exchanging pleasantries with people who clearly are letting their prejudice get in the way of common sense is not for me..
And yes I do see the irony, but I am also happy to admit my errors of judgement. Too many on here seem hell bent on being critical of Gatland because he's Gatland which is fine but dont try to dress it up as anything else. Trying to make out that picking Faz at 12 is evidence of a forwards dominated strategy is bonkers frankly and I reserve the right to point this out, (as would be picking Henderson to play on saturday after playing on Tuesday). Kryton is critical of trying to bring Davies, Watson, Daly and Williams into play more (despite them being Wales best attacking threats last week) whilst at the same time saying its indicative of a kick and clap policy, I'll say again, its drivel.
Lets criticise him for picking AWJ again and question Warburton or dropping a top performer like Teo but not try to make out something thats not there.
anagallis_arvensis - MemberA
A - you do come over as very antagonistic at times
I am!!
Well please try to be civilised you leek munching sheep molester. 😉
Yeah he does run out of the line quickly in defence a_a....England have played this way as a whole under Jones...guess it's McCall's input as defence coach.
Wales and the Lions so far have tried, successfully apart from the first test, to funnel everything down the 12 channel by having Davies at 13 blitz out. Obviously Wales have Roberts waiting and the Lions have had Teo. It will be interesting to see if they change this. When Sexton and Faz came on last week it was noticeable that Davies was used on the crash more so the attack was spread wider, I wonder if the defence will change too. Its certainly a gamble but it looks like Gatland is at least being positive our back 3 and Davies have looked threatening so it makes sense to try and bring them into the game more.
Of course it could all go tits up (and liekly will) but at least they wont go home having not thrown the kitchen sink at it.
Well please try to be civilised you leek munching sheep molester.
How dare you!! 😆
AA or Hanson could read the ploy and find a counter as Jones did against Scotland leading to JJ running riot
eah he does run out of the line quickly in defence a_a....England have played this way as a whole under Jones...guess it's McCall's input as defence coach.
I would also add that the deference in the two's defence may have been what contributed to English players like Nowel not being on the same page in defence in some of the early games, Davies is well used to his role at 13 and is generally good at picking when to blitz and when to drift, I'm not sure Nowel knew in that first game when the 13 was going to do one or the other.
I don't think anyone is saying Farrell is rubbish. Its just he works well for England as is. What EJ is most likely learning for the RWC is to play Farrell at 10 and Teo at 12.
I know that there were 13 other players on the pitch, but that combination didn't come up with the goods last weekend against NZ. Safe to say England are going to have to beat NZ to win the next rwc!
What the Lions need is a ton of Scots and their interceptions and a Welsh 15 man line out or two to win... it is the only logical solution....
... probably as construction as the rest of these comments 😉 🙂
I'm not unhappy with the starting team. We are unlikely to win and it is a gamble for a few reasons but not awful. Pack will get turned inside out and NZ will use their brains to play what's in front of them so a few selections here or there are a bit academic. They are more betterer
If Ford keeps kicking any playing like he did for England against Arg, by the next world cup it'll be Ford with Farrel / Daley / Tuilagi / Teo in the England mix.
And two of those are actually English so that's an improvement!
Teo was decent last week, but was/is a poundshop SBW, what is the point of playing somebody who [b]nearly[/b] does the same job as a better player but is conceding a position before the game? I suppose Gatland has a plan for this week,and it will be even less Gatlandball. I think Farrell is a clever player,but I don't think for a minute playing him in the centre against NZ will have any impact on the result, as others have said SBW is far more than a door opener. Another week of fitness and training for Kaino and Read as well which bearing in mind how Read played is a bit scary.. Though I expect Warburton to make a difference.
to shift the focus a bit. It looks like the pro 12 is going to be the pro 14 with 2 SA teams. Now as they have dropped the nation based qualification for the european cup and made it the top 7 teams in the pro 12 / 14 then could we have SA teams in the european cup?
does anyone understand this?
Now as they have dropped the nation based qualification for the european cup
Have they? Thats going to make Glasgiw take it seriously!!
Are the SA teams confirmed?
Didnt Zebre go bankrupt will they be in it?
If Ford keeps kicking any playing like he did for England against Arg, by the next world cup it'll be Ford with Farrel / Daley / Tuilagi / Teo in the England mix.
And two of those are actually English so that's an improvement!
Arf, arf. Because England are the only one who pick foreign players...
Manu needs a good season this year with Tigers before he can even think about resurrecting his international career. There is no guarantee that he'll waltz back into the side either. On his day he's brill, but I'm not sure how much he's been missed since JJ offers something a bit different and is probably more reliable defensively. Some of the young guns coming through look pretty good too.
Like many modern day things - too much thinking perhaps???
Starting point: AB are better than us, they are 1-2% better than us in most aspects of play esp offloading. Compound that up and we will always be under pressure, hence likely to give away more pens etc....sound familiar?
IIRC we had basic parity in set pieces for most of the early game including 100% LO with George and POM on the field. We switched off for the one penalty and then had the nightmare scrum which led to the other try. We also failed to take advantage of our slim chances, which you simply can't do if you expect to win.
I can't remember but wasn't the bad scrum after the first set of changes??
AWJ is 12-15m past his best and should be #5-6 in the current pecking order of candidates (including the man left at home). Bizarre to have him starting IMO, even on the bench. T'eo seems unlucky as does POM (they just have a better back row, period) albeit to a lesser extent.
Who knows with 12!?!?
Still enjoyed the first test, fingers crossed for Sat.
AA - no formal announcement yet but an SA journalist has said its happening. Rumour is that both Italians will stay in some form and 2 SA teams will join. Qualification is now a straight top 7 teams - glasgow always take it seriously and its been a while since they didn't finish in the top 6 IIRC
could be no welsh teams get into the european cup 🙂 Edinburgh are going to be a team to watch this year!
I'm not sure how a Glasgow taking it seriously could have finished below Scarlets and Ospreys considering how they went in europe.
because they were knackerd by the end of the season having played all those tough games. Squad a bit thin
In order to bring some positivity and in advance of tomorrows inevitable depression and spite, how about we nominate a few Lions from other countries who have for at least the next few weeks won over your support.
First of all I'll go with Faz, squinty eyed kicking aside I've grown to really like his attitude, he's a tough ****er too. Next Dan Cole who has given everything for the mid week team and never taken a backwards step in the face of much provocation. Finally I have always liked Nowel as a player but I have a new respect for the way he has fought back from his first game nightmare..
Two of your boys who carry the ever present threat of a yellow card - Nutty Liam and Rhys Webb. Otherwise most confirmed what we already knew.
Can't make my mind up about Henderson.
There are the four Scots that have shone though too..... 😉
I see thm cannot bring himself to be positive, not a surprise.
?? Two Welsh players have won my support - how is that not positive??
how about we nominate a few Lions from other countries who have for at least the next few weeks won over your support.
Henderson has performed well although I initially didn't think him worth a place. Unlucky to not be on the bench for the 2nd test.
I thought Jiffy Jnr shouldn't have got in over Ringrose or been in the test team over JJ but he's been consistently good.
Laidlaw? Always thought he was pish but he's given his all and I thought he was OK against The Hurricanes.
Te'o - he's not English so I can comment. Didn't think he should play for England or be selected for the tour but he's played well. No debate there.
Lions from other countries
Ok, I'll admit Teo is growing on me. 🙂
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40448854 ]tis confirmed[/url]
Didn't think he should play for England or be selected for the tour but he's played well. No debate there.
Yep.
I've been impressed with Seymour and love watching L Williams running with the ball. Tipuric has played really well and I'd like to see him closer to the 23. Conversely I think Stander looks cooked, whereas originally he was in my 15.
I think this tour has been great. Whilst very tough, I think all involved will become better players for it. The Aus/SA Lions series seem better, because we have a realistic chance of winning.
The Aus/SA Lions series seem better, because we have a realistic chance of winning.
My propposed future tour schedule for the Lions
2021 SA
2025 Aus
2029 Argentina
2033 SA
2037 Aus
2041 Argentina
And so on.....
Two Lions tours no missed tackles, guess who (ps no idea if correct)
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Tipuric?
what is the point of playing somebody who nearly does the same job as a better player
Im not suggesting Teo is the 2nd best centre in the World, but IMO there isnt anyone else who doesnt play in NZ thats any better than "nearly" as good as SBW at 12.
Tipuric?
Indeed.
IMO there isnt anyone else who doesnt play in NZ thats any better than "nearly" as good as SBW at 12.
Firstly I dont think anyone said Teo is nearly as good as SBW. Secondly Fofana or Fickou or both.
Well Hogg and wee Johnny are out for 4-5 months so Glasgow squad is going to be stretched again.
AA - implied by Duckman on the previous page, but yes he didnt say it directly about Teo.
Impressive stats by Tipuric. As I said - I'd have him in my 15
Ickle Jonny and Hoggba both missing until the 6N? All my optimism has just evaporated
We're doomed I tell you - doomed!
No crystal ball needed to see that Henderson performance coming, he was the best player on the pitch the week before too.
Got to give some credit to rowntree 'cos he's really brought him on as an international standard lock, was appearing a bit lost between positions with Les kiss playing him at 6 so much.
But on the other hand, it's total mismanagement that he's had to put 80 minutes in midweek before a test.
Same for players like Best and Cole .
Covering the extra workload of the geography call ups has effectively cost them their shot at being test lions.
Feels like it's compromised the chance to throw everything at the all blacks while the series is still live .
But on the other hand, it's total mismanagement that he's had to put 80 minutes in midweek before a test.
Same for players like Best and Cole .
? How big would you want the squad?
Got to give some credit to rowntree 'cos he's really brought him on as an international standard lock,
But obvviously no credit to the Head Coach?
Would have someone like launcbury / gray / Ryan over Cory hill, so they could play half each not 80 midweek.
Likewise with Dacey the hooker. Wasted spot.
Not bigger squad, just different on merit.
Credit where it's due with rowntree
God NZ's anthem is awful.....sounds like a GCSE music student has done it for their composition coursework.
Hoping Barret has forgotten how to run a loop tonight/this morning.
Looks greasy out there
Sexton & Farrell linking well so far.
Don't be daft, Farrell's shit. Everyone on here says so.
About to say SFSG and then the first error 🙁
Is the let off and omen - lets hope so.
Hats off to the supporters
Is that SBW off?
With the last years rules, I think that is correct. They've been flying in far too long imho.
Yep. And right too, with the laws as they are.
Absolutely correct.
Cripes.
Jerome: "I think it's a red."
The rest of them: "But Jerome, he's an All
black!" 🙂
Pretty awful shoulder straight into the face.
In the days of TV it was one of those that looked worse every time it was replayed. Been a much better lions all the way so far.
Bloody big call though - glad the ref stepped up. SBW may well be a lovely bloke, but that was a nasty challenge. It would be red in the AP/P12, so you have to do it in the big showpiece.
Jerome/ "I think it's a red."The rest of them: "But Jerome, he's an All
black!"Pretty awful shoulder straight into the face.
That was rather the tone of it wasn't it?
Clear red. Head shot, intent, no arms.
Yep. And right too, with the laws as they are.
It should have nothing to do with the "laws as they are": It's dangerous play, end of story.