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Cips/Faz could be interesting.
I'm in São Paulo this weekend for the match - found an Irish bar to watch in. For added interest I believe it also has a strip club!!
Cips/Faz could be interesting.
I hope thats not in a Lions context?!?!
Connor Murray out - big loss for Ireland
Ireland team: Payne; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Marmion; McGrath, Best, Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip.
Replacements: N Scannell, Healy, J Ryan, Toner, O'Mahony, L McGrath, Jackson, Conway.
Taille - you are correct that I have taken a no arms tackle to be a spear. Happy to be corrected.
And your assessment of the rest of what I was saying isn't far off.
By the way given nipple high or above is now a high tackle and the Brown-Daly tackle showed us what happens when a big lad hits a smaller one around the bottom of the rib cage (and wraps with the arms), it must be getting very hard for big lads to tackle small ones without being blown up.
Connor Murray out - big loss for Ireland
Yes thats a big factor, worse if the Irish scrum goes backward. I'm not too confident of the Irish backs vs England although I can earls/brown having an argument. The Irish pack needs to play well IMO.
it must be getting very hard for big lads to tackle small ones without being blown up
basically they can't just fly in with a big hit anymore, they need to be careful with timing, and add a bit of finesse.
And the game will actually be better for it in the long run, despite us all loving watching a man-mountain batter one of the pretty boys.
[i]nipple high or above is now a high tackle[/i]
It's still shoulder level - height of a high tackle hasn't changed.
Problem with Brown (ugh please no more! 😆 ) was he hit the ribcage and drove upwards. I still see nice big hits from the big lads and they drive straight and back, or down. And all is groovy.
Dez - (and I am really not trying to start a fight) perhaps it's because that two planted feet, hit and drive up and through is exactly how I was taught to tackle that I find it strange.
Maybe I just qualified as an official "old fart" (copyright WCarling)
It's not the hit which is the problem. It's the fact he lifted his legs, which is how you get someone beyond the horizontal and what they want to stop - for good reason!
If Brown had just wrapped his arms around Daly, he wouldn't have ended up upside down. He'd still have bloody well felt it, but the tackle would have been legit. I've have never been taught or seen or even heard of anyone else being taught to lift a tacklees legs, because it's illegal, not within the conduct of the sport and ****ing dangerous!
Payne at 15 is good, at least he can tackle unlike Karney. Still got 2 non tackling wings though!
Yeah, I see Payne as an upgrade over Kearney
Wrecker - if you hit at the height Brown did, and assuming you're not double jointed, your arms will naturally wrap around the other guy's legs.
And yes I was taught to take the legs because then they can't run and can't stay on their feet to try and wait for support (which I admit is a moot point if you've already passed the ball).
I'm really not trying to argue for the sake of it - it really did look like a beautifully crafted tackle with an unfortunate outcome to me.
Didn't Daly rather jump into the tackle? 😉
Wrecker - if you hit at the height Brown did, and assuming you're not double jointed, your arms will naturally wrap around the other guy's legs.
It's the tacklers responsibility to make sure they don't. I'm certainly not after a row here! It is pretty clear, it matters not if your arms or whatever would naturally do something, you HAVE to make sure they don't. Even if they would naturally go there, lifting the thighs, which brown unquestionably did is not natural.
It's not really a big deal, Daly id fit again so no lasting harm done but it was clearly a bad tackle, whether intentional or not he was responsible for the safety of the tacklee.
And yes I was taught to take the legs because then they can't run and can't stay on their feet to try and wait for support
We all were! But that's very different to lifting the legs, I very much hope that you weren't taught that.
Don't tempt me. You know I think that he jumps/starts moving upwards and I think that the leg extension and indeed the level of his head relative to the advertising hoardings (the resolution's poor, but concentrate on his ears relative to the board) show that.
But no one else does, so we agreed to leave it.
Didn't we.
Troublemakers
Edit: Wrecker - we're not going to fight, but I don't agree it's clear he lifted the legs - I think the shoulder in the guts and a good leg drive probably provided additional (cos I'm blaming the victim in the first instance 😉 ) upward momentum, yes, but the arms round the legs are almost incidental compared to that shoulder, except that if he hadn't put his arms round the legs it would have been a foul tackle. We can I assume agree that last point?
Lions coaches then : Borthwick, Rowntee, Jenkins, Farrell, Howley.
The top 3 I get. With the allegations surrounding the prior England mess why Farrell? And Howley...?
It's a case of who's left once the others turned it down.
Although i never quite understood what Shaun Edwards did to not be involved.
And it does seem a bit weird to need two forwards coaches, unless one knows fa about lineouts and the other knows fa about scrums
we're not going to fight
Quite right mate. It's an interesting discussion.
except that if he hadn't put his arms round the legs it would have been a foul tackle. We can I assume agree that last point?
He's entitled to grab the legs. He's only allowed to lift them if he puts the player back down, which is nonsense really, it's not possible to control a player's fall no matter how strong you are. The insinuation is don't lift beyond the horizontal. The tackle was shoulder to chest, he could have wrapped the torso without too much effort (IMHO of course 😉 ) and it still would have been a devastating tackle, he just wouldn't have got binned and we wouldn't be having this little chat.
And Howley...?
Sleeper agent designed to **** up Englands new exciting back line!
Wrecker - looking at it I think relative to Daly, Brown is much lower than shoulder to chest - perhaps shoulder to belly (do backs have bellies or is that just old school forwards?) and maybe even looking at Dez's photo three (page 103) shoulder to the waist band of Daly's shorts. Given the arms will always wrap below the tackler's shoulder they wrap the legs - only place to go.
So a well planted, driven tackle becomes dangerous (by definition of the rotation of Daly).
But I still struggle with the idea that Brown "flew in" - the photos show an approach and drop of his body by Brown that he then drives up and out of. That is a fairly skilled and deliberate move and I doubt anyone would say there's anything wrong In that on its own.
He then wraps the arms - quite correctly I think most would agree.
The upward movement is definitely shoulder driven, though I think (and others don't) that Daly contributes (remembering that even a slight movement by Daly at this point will raise Brown's shoulder magnifying Brown's upward drive).
The legs are not flipped or tipped but held to Brown's chest until it all starts to go wrong where Brown appears to let go trying not to compound the situation by landing on Daly.
Now if the definition of a dangerous tackle is legs passed horizontal and not restored before landing (and give or take it is) then the result is a dangerous tackle.
But it really looks like a good tackle that ended badly and a yellow, though perhaps inevitable, was harsh.
And it does seem a bit weird to need two forwards coaches, unless one knows fa about lineouts and the other knows fa about scrums
Well you could try looking on the positive side.
One knows everything about lineouts and the other knows everything about scrums.......
Oh right . I'll have to remember that.
With the allegations surrounding the prior England mess why Farrell?
I don't think Gatland chose him.
He just turned up and told Gatland he was on the team.
But it really looks like a good tackle that ended badly
The problem with outcome vs intent based decisions/sanctions.
But the nett result is that players will have to consider how things *might* turn out *if* things go wrong and mitigate further for it.
(I'm also aware, having referee'd - albeit in soccer - for several years that judging intent is virtually impossible, and potentially more so in rugby where intent is actually to hurt your opponent, albeit legally and in the 'spirit' of the game. When intent is genuinely to hit someone hard and put them on their back seeing stars and waiting for breath to re-enter their body, telling that from intent to actually damage someone properly is even harder)
So tomorrow
England to beat Ireland by5-10
France to beat Wales by similar.
Scotland to get a bonus point win v Italy.
That might put Scotland 2nd? Depending on points difference?
Anyone see the U20 game?
Trying to see positives from an Ireland loss tomorrow - maybe a few of them will put themselves out of Lions contention. 🙂
Wales will beat France by a score.
Scotland to beat Italy easily enough.
England to beat Ireland by 10-15.
This blokes son just scored for u20's v France...will we send out Beefies grandson to get him!!!
If anyone's interested, the Irish are giving the Roses the first decent fight of the tournament.
SHowing live on the RFU site or you tube now
Just finished watching the France v Wales U20.
Wales turning France over at will in the first 20 minutes. Dominant, positive rugby. Then Wales's set piece imploded and The French lads turned on the Galic flair and Wales chase ghosts for 59 minutes.
France ran in 6 try's with 2 disallowed. Hope it isn't a precursor for tomorrow.
🙁
'Slam for the Red Roses, and what a good game that was - you don't often see a hoooker run in a 50m Try. Watching them over the last few weeks and its interesting to observe they seem much faster to react to a situation than the mens team and individuals take responsibility much quicker yet with immediate team support. The men could learn a thinng or too - if our Elites were that effective the really would be challenging the AB's strongly.
Scotland women won a game!
Anyone see the U20 game?
Indeed. Stirring stuff!
I've watched all of England's games and they really had to fight for this one. Unlike some of the hammerings they've dished out.
Two phenomenal goal line stands kept out a very dogged Irish side who'd hauled themselves back from the brink. That last five minutes was exhausting to watch!
Two Grand Slams down - one to go! 😀
The Curry twins are going to be in the senior squad sooner rather than later as well.
Alex Shaw was saying last night that "they were a force of nature,ripping up props like they were 12 stone scrum halfs".
Very glad Sale got them on 5yr contracts recently.
Nobody watching the Scotland v Italy game? It's been dire! Hard to remember Italy playing worse.
Hopefully the other games will be better. I think Scotland could get past 40 here.
Weir is on!!!! 🙂
Damn good game from Scotland. Italy look rather where Scotland were 5 years ago - no belief
I hope everyone saw the appreciation big Vern got from the crowd. A good 6N from Scotland and its been a while. Record number of points scored, record number of tries, 3 wins - the first time we have won more than two games in 11 years, first time we have beaten teams ranked above us for a good few years.
Big up to Big Vern!
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Just in case anyone was wondering..... Yes, this brass band are shite! 😯
Thanks for the confirmation TB.
Sometimes I have these random strong feelings about games that should be neutral to me. This is one of them.
I hope the frogs stuff the welsh.
A good tournament for Scotland despite last weeks humping. Today's performance was only run of the mill. Perhaps last week was still on a few players minds. Well done Vern
Excellent Scotland game. 4 tries, shut out the Italians, job done.
Could yet finish second in the 6N which would be one more small step back to where we should be - not there yet of course, but getting there.
I'm currently supporting Wales for a boring kick based win.
0-10 already ... it is going to need a lot of kicks and some defence 😉
Scotland must be kicking themselves not to have beaten France. The England game the wheels came off but French game could/should have been won.
Barnes is going to have to difficult game. The Welsh are more offside than on! 😉
Jamba - at least this year its only one game that got aay - last year it was 3!
Jamba - now this doesn't happen often, but I find myself agreeing with you on a rugby thread.
Or one consonant TJ
10-9 going your way now ...
The Welsh are more offside than on
There are no Welsh players in the ruck.
That could be a big mistake, take 13-9
13-18 with 5 minutes. Come on Wales.
He's getting booed but the Ref's handling this very well IMHO
(not getting much help from his fourth official though)
Farcical injury/replacement shenanigans.
What a poor match. I'm at the point where I'd rather Wales came fifth and then had a meaningful change in coaching style and structure.
I dare him to blow for a not straight feed
(hit post just as the commentator said it)
I hope Samson didn't hit the showers.
Farcical.
God the whole 'Ireland we are Special and we deserve two anthems' thing is tiresome. When Ireland play New Zealand we now get three anthems and a ****ing dance before kick off. Get on with it!
Allons enfants de la patrie! Now for England to do a number on Ireland and the weekend will be set fair......
Marvellous 🙂
My god that was intense.
This will be analysed forever. Bizarre end to a dreadful match.
That looks like third not second for Scotland then. Disgraceful.
That was some game. I didn't think france were going to do it .
Very very good reffing from Barnes for that last passage. Made sure it was not his deciusion that decided the match. Wales very lucky to keep so many men on the park. If there had been another Pen two were going in the bin - tighthead and 10
I have just - like two minutes ago - woken up. What on earth was going on there?
😆 😀
God the whole 'Ireland we are Special and we deserve two anthems' thing is tiresome. When Ireland play New Zealand we now get three anthems and a **** dance before kick off. Get on with it!
You owe me a beer!
Barnes will be pleased that French try was grounded and he didn't have to give a penalty try against Wales under the posts instead. A horrible game to ref. Barnes right to get the doctor to confirm to camera his decision. Ref cannot overrule doctor request for hia. Imagine the legal liability if he made the wrong call? Upto irb/French doctor to argue the toss about that one.
I have just - like two minutes ago - woken up. What on earth was going on there?
There was a scrum that lasted 20 minutes.
Nothing unusual then
Lets just say my Welsh friends are very quiet on Facebook.
Very very good reffing from Barnes for that last passage.
Brian Moore would beg to differ...he says Barnes totally lost control (I didn't see it so can't comment but I tend to trust his judgement)
Thought it was Martyn Williams who said that?
Barnes did alright. Rob Evans going off blew it for Wales.
Good try for Ireland!!
I thought he remained in control, unflustered, wasn't going to be rushed into a wrong decision no matter what the clock said. The game was bizarre by that point but in the end it was decided by rugby and not the officials.
Exactly. He followed the laws meticulously. Conscious that the armchair lawyers in the commentary box would be making up laws on the hoof no doubt. Not to mention not being swayed by 50,000 Frenchman whistling at you too
Do England not know how to use their arms in the tackle?
Lawes doesnt and Itoje is lucky 2 highs have been missed to go with the late on 10 and taking out the 9 at a ruck.
Totally AA