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You're not still banging on that a bloke being lifted in the air is jumping? FFS let it go! You're the only person in the world who thinks this!
I am not , not looked his old self since coming back . Anonymous for Bath .
And yet he was very good off the bench against Ireland. I saw a bit of him playing for Bath and he was very poor though, like Warburton for The Blues poor...I dont think they try very hard.
It was a tip, he didnt spear him though and the guy landed on his back so it was yellow. Looked accidental to me and the ref and the citing panel.
Just cos I could -
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Sorry that's been photoshopped or sumit 😉
The more I think about it, the reason Scotland didn't show up last week, was they tried the old "hate the English" passion game
Where are you getting that from exactly?
It wasn't a late hit. Brown had no way of knowing if he was being sold a dummy until Daly was less than a metre away.
He hit low and he used his arms. The problem was his arms ended up wrapping around his knees and physics took over.
Had he hit six inches higher it would have just been a big hit. Had he hit six inches lower Daly would have landed on his head and it would have been a straight red.
I don't think there was any intention other than a forward putting in a big intimidating hit on a back and it had nothing to do with the fact he was English. To suggest it was is a bit of a dick move.
Not surprised at the Faletau pick.
Don't think Wales really want him on the lions tour, and this excuses him early.
Reckon big billy s gonna be first choice and Warburton and tips will be there. Better for their national side if he captain's their tour, brings the youngsters along, and leaves the midweek fighting to Hughes or heaslip.
From my days of playing the coaching for the first five minutes was to find your opposite number, put in a big hit, hopefully leave a player shaped dent in the pitch. Ditto for the player or players you've been told to target for tackling practice. For me that was the flyhalf, whether to tackle or run hard at.
You also tried to figure out the invisible line only the ref could see for offside, hands in the ruck, killing the ball, lying on the wrong side, holding the tackled player, holding on to the ball. Delete as appropriate. 😉
Back to the Brown tackle, it was a bit late, he wanted to make a big hit, the red mist descended (he's a hooker, not the most stable of the forwards), it all goes a bit wrong. I don't think there was ever any intention to tip tackle, just make a big hit. He got what he deserved.
If he'd got a red card it would have ruined an otherwise equal and measured game and turned it in to a rout. 😉
(he's a hooker, not the most stable of the forwards),
Oi, watch it!! 😉
Should have been a red, but glad it wasnt. Much better to compare the result against 15 players (albeit not for the full 90)
Shouldn't have been a red, should've been a yellow. Which it was.
And the ref, TMO, and citing commission all agree with me.
The hits on Hogg on the other hand...
dantsw13 - Member
The more I think about it, the reason Scotland didn't show up last week, was they tried the old "hate the English" passion game, which put their heads in the wrong place, losing their new style that has been working so well
That's utter Bollocks.
Should have been a red
Why?
Dangerous simple
Bruce tbc totally accept the decision on the day, my "should have" is for the future. The law as it stands is clearly an ass - the problem with outcome based results
IIRC correctly in both cases the player had to leave the field (might be wrong with Arg, can't be bothered to check) and we a simply finessing between a few inches between neck and shoulder blade which is absurd and does not protect the players' interests in a consistent manner.
But it's ok, the injured party this time has a white shirt on 😉
Bruce tbc totally accept the decision on the day, my "should have" is for the future.
So to summarise it [u]should not[/u] have been a red but you think the law is wrong?
I saw Faletau for Bath before Christmas and he only lasted 20 mins but it was an amazing 20 mins, he was brilliant. Got to really appreciate how good he is as always thought he was just consistently very good, but he's way better than that.
Lets be honest it was as bad as this
How about this, just a pen then a weeks ban later so should have been red
I don't think there was any intention other than a forward putting in a big intimidating hit on a back and it had nothing to do with the fact he was English. To suggest it was is a bit of a dick move.
No. It was so WAYCIST! Evil Nazi tackling! RACIST! RACIST! (Scream along everyone!)
That Daly one is bad. Really bad.
DezB - look at the leg extension between your photos 2 & 3.
Clearly lifting his body creating an upward motion. I agree that his feet haven't left the ground but he is rising. If you prefer flinching (I might flinch in that situation) to jumping then fair enough. But everything that happens after that is physics.
If Brown doesn't wrap the arms it's a "spear", if he does it's a "tip". Once committed to the tackle what should he have done differently?
Brown goes in hard, but fair, Daly flinches at a time he should have been dropping his weight into the tackle, and it's all very unfortunate from there on in.
Daly ends on his back (but given he went past the horizontal someone or something, perhaps Brown who also appears to try not to land on him, must have stopped him landing on his head - or Newton was wrong)
If that is the definition of a foul tackle it was foul. But it's a rough old game and it looked heavy, hard but fair to me.
Or a Bill McLaren might have said "that's just a front row welcoming the opposition backs to the game". 😉
Our opinions will differ.
I don't think there was any intention other than a forward putting in a big intimidating hit on a back and it had nothing to do with the fact he was English. To suggest it was is a bit of a dick move.
This.
But it's a rough old game and it looked heavy, hard but fair to me.
Not this - Daly's legs went beyond the horizontal which under the current laws is a no-no.
Since we're all posting videos involving people getting dumped on their heads
I think Fraser Brown should get some credit for not accusing Daly of milking it. And then apologising for saying that Daly milked it to get his ban reduced. And then accusing Daly of milking it again once his ban had been reduced.
Mindmap3 - fair enough on the technicality, but after Daly raised his body (voluntarily or by flinching) as Brown creamed him, and Brown has done nothing wrong at that time, how could Brown avoid either tipping or spearing. I don't think it's possible everything was in motion by that point and anything that happened was unfortunate (and I'm glad there appears to be little damage to either player) but unavoidable.
From my days of playing the coaching for the first five minutes was to find your opposite number, put in a big hit, hopefully leave a player shaped dent in the pitch. Ditto for the player or players you've been told to target for tackling practice. For me that was the flyhalf, whether to tackle or run hard at.
+1, and at school we were whiter than white when it came to dirty play, anyone who was caught was banned and any opposition who were offenders would be dropped from the fixture list. So nowt wrong with Jambas comment, putting in a big first time hit is part of game.
Keet Earls is a serial tip tackler
What this discussion is showing about the modern laws is that everyone has forgotten what a proper spear tackle which is a positive thing. Consistency of tips is a different thing though
I'll just leave this here as another contentious one that is neither a tip nor a spear...
Mefty - the point I was angry about is not that Brown went to make a mark - he did - but that Jamba insinuated that it was a deliberate attempt to injure which it is not. Thats why I was angry along with the co0ntinual anti scots posts from him on other threads.
In rugby nowadays if you lift a man as Brown did you are responsible for putting him down safely - which brown did not do
[i]DezB - look at the leg extension between your photos 2 & 3.
Clearly lifting his body creating an upward motion. [/i]
Er, you said he "Jumped". He doesn't jump. All upward motion (see 1a, 2a, 3a where his body is at the same height) is so bleeding obviously down to the UPWARD motion of the head and shoulders driving into him that I can only deduce you're just arguing for the sake of it. Or you're mental. 😆
[i]Daly ends on his back[/i]
No he doesn't. Look again - he lands on his shoulders, but only because he lifts his head out of self-preservation.
(Landing on the shoulders/neck is just as dangerous as the head- I'd rather one of my rugby lads was KOed for a few seconds than had his neck broken and was paralysed. That's why I think the law is wrong here, but that's another matter.)
The "glasgow handshake" given at the end of tackle - shows that there was no intent and it was just a nice "hello there, how are you..."
putting in a big first time hit is part of game = trying to hurt your opposite number, which is fine if it is within the rules. He said no more/no less.
DezB, thanks for trying, I was going to try and do what you did, got as far as watching the video clip and realised that the picture must have been scrambled on its way to igm's house.
Walk away!!
[i]Walk away!![/i]
Yup! 🙂
I haven't convinced you, nor you me.
I saw it as a big hit, but no malice, no intent to tip, and just an unfortunate outcome. There is leg extension before the hit in your photos indicating he is driving himself upwards (jumping) probably because he is flinching over what is about to happen.
Flinching into contact ends badly.
I retired (from a very low level of rugby) 13 years ago because after a shoulder injury I was flinching going into contact. I knew I'd hurt myself so I quit.
Shall we both walk away?
We can agree on something else another day.
how could Brown avoid either tipping or spearing.
By not flying into the tackle in a way that could endanger a player in that way.
I saw it as a big hit, but no malice, no intent to tip, and just an unfortunate outcome.
I agree. However with this new outcome rather than intent based sanctioning system, the correct course of action would have been to foresee that if you hit him in that way you *might* end up tipping your opponent, that he *might* end up landing badly, and that you *might* end up with a card as a result. And modify your actions to prevent them occurring.
In all seriousness rugby has always been a sport of skill AND physical dominance and in recent times i think the cult of the big hit has become a little too important. Tackling is good, but does it have to be as hard as it is - which really has only one purpose, to intimidate and potentially injure.
For all its faults, soccer outlawed the sliding tackle from behind (Big Ron's classic 'reducer') for the same reason a few seasons back, and it took a few players a while to get their heads around it, but they did and the game is far better as a result.
There are others that disagree, as there will be here, and who won't like the idea that a player needs to factor in safety of his opponent before making a tackle, but the players will work it out.
Walking away implies that both sides are right. Unfortunately you are not. I will try this only once: Firstly look at the video. Ignore the point of contact with your imagined 'jump' or 'flinch'. Look what happens after the contact Notice the way Daly is flipped over, at speed, by Brown. That is what is illegal and dangerous. Secondly, look at the video. There is[b] no [/b]upward movement by Daly. You are imagining it. The upwards move comes as the result of the tackle. There is a split second after he ships the ball until contact, he doesn't get a change to flinch or jump. He just gets hammered. Thirdly, and finally, if you look at the photos: Between 2&3 where you see a 'leg extension' you might have a little look at the background and look at where Daly's head, shoulders and waist are in relation to the background advertising hoardings. The only time they move upwards is after the hit. The 'leg extension' is called running. His right foot goes onto his toes as his left heel goes down on the floor. Everything else is in your imagination and because we live in age where the truth is whatever you want it to be, I accept that you are unikley ever to admit it.
You have already seen players change their behaviour over the tackle in the air and I think on these big hits it will happen as well.
The only time they move upwards is after the hit
I tried that... That he is the only person who is right and everyone else has got it wrong just tells you it's not worth continuing the discussion.
I was not implying that igm was right, merely that one should recognise the point at which you realise that the discussion will never be settled. igm sees one thing, and his head will not be turned. We could all spend days pointing out the errors, but whether he is trolling or not, it is clear that igm is going to stick with his opinion, and therefore to save this dragging on any further, just walk away.
Here have some naked Gavin and some dogs
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The dog is clearly lifting him.
Needs a smiley Dez
Look I know others see it one way and I see it another - not everyone sees everything the same.
But I am happy to stop arguing about it.
Everyone ok with that?
CFH accents are super advanced stuff in my book, way beyond my linguistic skills
Don't be too hard on TJ he got himself wound up on the political threads and just let it get to him here.
Just caught up on this thread after being away for a while...
IGM - I think you're a little confused on the definition of a spear tackle:
igm - MemberDan, either you think it was a spear tackle or you think it was a tip tackle. It's very difficult to lift the legs (tip) without using the arms - practically impossible. So you can't tip and spear. It's the lack of objective observation that makes me pity some on here. (I'll put a smiley in at this point - but it only applies to the last sentence)
A spear tackle doesn't imply not using the arms (that's a shoulder charge or "no arms tackle") it's rather an extension of the tip tackle in that the tackler picks the tackled player up (using his arms!) and spears him head first into the deck, normally also twisting him so he lands on a shoulder or neck; clearly very dangerous and rightly banned.
The tackle in question was not a spear tackle imo but was (just) late and an example of what happens when a bigger player poorly executes a tackle on a smaller player i.e. a penalty and yellow card in todays game or a "good hit" 10 years ago.
TJ - I think you're being a tad over sensitive about Jamba's comment - in many years of playing I don't think I ever made a tackle where I wasn't trying to hurt the other guy ; not maim him or put him off the park but I definitely wanted him to know he'd been hit.
It reminds of the old apocryphal tale:
Son: "Dad I don't want to play rugby I don't want to get hurt"
Dad: "Don't worry son rugby's not about getting hurt, it's about hurting other people..."
According to the Telegraph, the WRU have been impressed with Howley and he's favourite to replace Garland in 2019.
Personally, I think some fresh ideas would be good but I guess they see him as a safe pair of hands.
According to the Telegraph, the WRU have been impressed with Howley and he's favourite to replace Garland in 2019.Personally, I think some fresh ideas would be good but I guess they see him as a safe pair of hands.
Nooooooooooooooooooo
Tallie - Jamba made out it was a deliberate attempt to injure another player and to put him out of the game - but yes I let his constant anti scots bias from other threads get to me. His obvious contempt for scotland and the scots got to me.
😯
Wow, thats some level of misplaced paranoia.
😯
I wasnt even aware Jamba was Scottish.
😉
and once more THM posts directly after me presumably some snide dig at me.
We will probably get reminded of this every week now. . I'm amazed Jambas hasnt been blocked yet with a silly message. The reminder about mine is at lest a week overdue.
And again? I don't see his posts just "teamhurtmore said something stupid" but it rather amuses me how often he posts directly after me.
Yes correcting more lies and unfair/misplaced comments about another forumite, A very poor show at slandering Jambas with unfair criticism. Not unexpected though.
According to the Telegraph, the WRU have been impressed with Howley and he's favourite to replace Garland in 2019.Personally, I think some fresh ideas would be good but I guess they see him as a safe pair of hands.
Dear God no 🙁 if that is true then the WRU are deluded........
The sad thing is making insinuations about another forumite that several have also noted are misplaced. That is really sad, if typical. Anyway I am out of this, don't want to spilt the thread responding to your paranoia.
TJ & THM - Could you take it offline - there are many of us that would quite like this Rugby thread to remain open.
Thanks for your understanding.
Yes apologies and have done. Your joke was a much better deflection !
Anywat rugby, THM I'm still waiting for you to tell me which 2 outstanding players I missed from a Lions suggestion.
Kryton - no problem from me - I have him blocked. I just find it amusing that he continues to post after virtually every post I make despite the fact I don't see his posts
I wasnt even aware Jamba was Scottish.
Is he?
Well that would explain his lack of knowledge about rugby then.....
😆
😉
Le XV de départ tricolore :
Dulin - Nakaitaci, Fickou, Lamerat, Vakatawa - Lopez, Serin - Gourdon, Picamoles, Sanconnie - Maestri, Vahaamahina - Slimani, Guirado, Baille.
Les remplaçants : Chat, Atonio, Ben Arous, Le Devedec, Chouly, Trinh-Duc, Dupont, Huget
Some real quality throughout.
Billy and Watson to start for England on Saturday with Hughes and Nowell on the bench (with the usual lot).
Some real quality throughout.
Some Frenchmen as well!
🙂
I just find it amusing that he continues to post after virtually every post I make
You are paranoid. Happened once in the past 6 pages (some of which you've posted on a lot) and that was referring to someone else's post.
You are paranoid.
FFS can we get back to arguing about rugby......
Watson in for Nowell? Is Daley ok then, Jones really has a hard on for Daly doesnt he. When will we see him at 13 or 15 I wonder.
Daly in on the wing having passed the tests.
Nowells obviously coming on for impact later. So we have Billy coming off the back straight at 9/10 that'll be interesting for him, and will keep the flankers busy no doubt.
I'm both excited and scared at the same time, especially as I'll be in the theatre watching a family show and will need to try to avoid the result until I can watch it at 8pm.
[i]FFS can we get back to arguing about rugby.....[/i]
😆 I'm flying to France on Saturday, so gonna miss the game!
[i]When will we see him at 13 or 15 I wonder.[/i]
We need a new 15. I've always liked Brown, but he's been rubbish this 6N.
Interesting that Watson is in for Nowell....both were good last week. Just shows the strength that we have now. As for Billy V....well, I'm glad he's playing for us rather than against us. On for he really is world class. Should be a good game, can't wait!
I'm flying to France on Saturday, so gonna miss the game!
I'm flying back from Hong Kong and so am going to miss it all. I usually hate the idea of WiFi on planes, would have loved it for this one!
Oops
well, I'm glad he's playing for us rather than against us.
You mean like....
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🙂
Squad or coach or both?
Look at this team versus team that Wales beat in RWC 15
Brown - starter
Watson - starter
Joseph
Farrell - starter
Daly
Ford - bench
Youngs - starter
Marler - starter
Hartley - 🙂
Cole - starter
Launchbury - bench
Lawes - starter
Itoje
Haskell - bench
B Vunipola - starter
Totally different centre partnership after the Barritt/Burgess [s]debacle[/s] experiment, but largely the same team
I always said that that RWC came 2 years too early. Look at how many caps the teams that were in the semi's had....and look at how many we now have. That combined with Farrell senior pissing everyone off/picking Burgess and Barritt ffs/Lancaster not recognising that Ford and Farrell at 10 and 12 was they way forward were the main issues!
By the time 2019 comes around l we should be looking very good....hopefully Daly or Watson will have replaced Brown at 15 and have a decent number of games under their belt there. George starting at 2, couple of backrowers wouldn't go amiss....hopefully Cole will still be on top of his game at tighthead in 2 years as that's a potential area of weakness too.
Mostly coach, the game has also been moved towards them by the refs..much less jackling going on which England without a real 7 struggled with. The emphasis now is on big carriers more because of this and England have always had them and a set piece. The coach has improved the fire power behind a lot though.
+ Put "[b]two outstanding players[/b]" together consistently in the same place, unlike his predecessor, releasing the rest of the back line (good forwards help there too admittedly!) 😉
Other 1 is Ford? Not convinced by him TBH. Gets a lot of protection in defence and his hand held by Faz. Good player does well at what he's asked to do but any competant 10 would look good behind that pack.
Giving them the run they have held obviosly helps though.
Got it!! Bravo.
I am not convinced either - especially with his defence - but people with greater experience, Sir C, Geeks and EJ seem to know better than both of us... 😉
I will save you the clip of their beautiful passing at Cardiff!!
He's maybe the best option at 10 for England, especially with Faz at 12 but not sure I'd want him for the Lions...could well tour though.