[Closed] Rugby thread 2016/2017

Only just got around to watching the game (silly me, was out riding a mountain bike!) - that (like any really) tactic works if you play it occasionally, not every single breakdown - then obviously the opposition can work you out.
Surprised it took England so long really. I remember a youth match I refereed, where I called 'no ruck' and a team scored from that breakdown, one of the lads came over - 'He was offside' nope, not when there's no ruck...It's not like it's a new rule! Fascinating game anyway. Really enjoyed the second half.

Indeed, it's the element of surprise that made it effective. If that happened regularly teams would very quickly come up with a suitable tactic to address it. Once they have I suspect they would cut to pieces any team doing it consistently rather than as an occasional surprise.

EDIT Cross posting there, great minds...

However, as I said earlier, if this tactic gets widely used it will end up getting banned

It is already widely used by many teams worldwide who don't seem to have a problem recognising the differences between rucks and mauls and tackles.

You can't classify a tackled player lying on the ground with four of his team-mates crouching over him and no opposion nearby as a ruck. Even if EJ wants it to be.

But then whinging about that deflects from the fact the England were truly terrible today, doesn't it?

Alternatively, all the controversy overshadows the fact that England have now won, what is it? 17 in a row?

I know there's anyone but England sentiment from certain quarters, but be honest. Wales would have fixed it just like that, would they? They couldn't even work out how to deal with a kick for goal at 3 behind and half an hour to play! Scotland? France?

As I said, people far cleverer than you and I about rugby 'hadn't seen it before' and were scratching heads for a time about dealing with it.

Idle Ventner is their defensive coach, fine player ex Bokker and London Irish/Quinns (?)

If it wasn't that novel & the solution is so blindingly obvious, then why did the Italians try it? C'mon guys I know you are anti-England but at least talk a modicum of sense.

I know there's anyone but England sentiment from certain quarters, but be honest. [b]Wales would have fixed it just like that[/b], would they? They couldn't even work out how to deal with a kick for goal at 3 behind and half an hour to play! Scotland? France?

A similar tactic, occasionally used, is to stand off at mauls, crating a truck and trailer offside.

Works for a bit, as an element of surprise, but once rumbled, it's rumbled.

As mentioned on the last page, England were suckered in to it and didn't react.

Oh, hold on. They did react. Their 7, the ruck specialist position, asked the referee what a ruck was. 🙂

Wales would have fixed it just like that, would they? They couldn't even work out how to deal with a kick for goal at 3 behind and half an hour to play!

C'mon guys I know you are anti-England but at least talk a modicum of sense.

You appear to be mostly arguing with yourself!!

Massive fault with England players not being able to solve the problem on the field.

A massive part of the issue with England ( maybe Northern Hemisphere teams?) is decision making and just being structure d to the n' th degree and unable to look at what is going on and adapt. As above easy to deal with really.

Well done Italy and EJ would not be complaining if his team was using it.

I'm finding most of the back biting pretty funny!
It happened, it was legal and fair play to Italy for trying something. Connor O Shea's interview is pretty spot on.
England are top of the table, still won with a bonus point and are unbeaten so far in this tournament.
Idlejon may say that england were shit today, but they are still playing better rugby than wales (in 4th place are, and I don't remotely fancy their chances against the Irish or the French.

they are still playing better rugby than wales

Yeah but Wales are shit...look at the coaches..Cotter, Jones, Schimdt......and Rob ****ing Howley

Idlejon may say that england were shit today, but they are still playing better rugby than wales (in 4th place are, and I don't remotely fancy their chances against the Irish or the French.

😀 He's a welsh legend! I don't know what the problem is!

I'd take less pleasure laughing at england if they were gracious winners, but they're not.

To be completely honest I think Italian players were offside some of the time - obviously must bow to the knowledge of an International ref ( slightly under the influence of an international coach, he may or may not have been!) but I don't think they can just come past the tackle area until the ball is away from the tackle - some of the time it seemed like they just stood in front of the 9 before the ball had been played - i reckon that's what confused England.
[i](d)
Players on their feet must not charge or obstruct an opponent who is not near the ball[/i]
I mean, what was this 1metre Poit was heard referring to? I'd be interested if someone can show me that in the laws.
I may be wrong, but thats how i wouldve reffed it, and any fool kno, the ref is never wrong. Not until some whinger from the sideline wanders over at the end of the match and tells them they are anyway.

EJ was the stroppy one.
The rest of them just seemed grateful to escape without making themselves look more stupid.

Was a fantastic game to watch, and overall the 6N this year has been great

This was also within the rules.

Brilliant tactics or making a mockery of the game for short term gain?

I'm all for a bit of innovation, but if everyone employed this tactic all the time it would basically look like Aussie rules.

It's a good job nobody gives a shit what you think then isn't it?

He's a welsh legend! I don't know what the problem is!

Laugh it up buddy. See how you feel when he's coaching all those English,Scottish and Irish players how to attack with the Lions...at least he cant harm any welsh players then!!!

Laugh it up buddy. See how you feel when he's coaching all those English,Scottish and Irish players how to attack with the Lions...at least he cant harm any welsh players then!!!

@dannyh that cricket example was just what I was thinking

Was a fantastic game to watch,

Hum ??? Paresse's catch was fabulous, Farrell's comedy kicking and the joke tries where less so. I thought it was highly forgettable.

There is no offside line at a tackle. Therfore they can go behind the tackled player. John Hardie uses this a fair amount and other Scots do as well. I am confident Scotland would have sussed it out quickly. the way to counter it is to pick and drive from the SH position.

It shows the inflexibility of thinking from the England side and also the ref was spot on to say he is a ref not a coach - he cannot tell them how to counter it. Nor can they pull folk into the tackle to make it a ruck - that would be tackling a player without the ball. the 1 m zone is the are you cannot encroach into without making it a ruck

I am confident Scotland would have sussed it out quickly

There was never a shred of doubt about that TJ.

Jamba - Glasgow and Scotland use this tactic. Thats why they would have sussed it. John Hardie uses it a fair amount and I have seen Barclay and Dunbar do it as well. Its in the Glasgow / Scotland book of tricks so its not new to the scots.

TJ can't say I have personally ever seen Scotland use it. I will take your word for it.

Well that was pretty awful.

England were poor, really poor. Hughes was a liability; for all of the good stuff that he does for Wasps, he's not an international eight.

Lawes and Launchburry were good though and Itoje looked better at six this week.

Farrell was really bad this week. What a way to mark your 50th cap. Ford did sweet FA really. May was a disaster.

Scotland's visit looks like a foregone conclusion really now as does the visit to Ireland. We won't and don't deserve to win it.

Not apples to apples, but in terms of tactics it's a bit like not committing at a lineout while the attacking team form a maul and get pinged for obstruction. That is even more common yet some teams still seem totally confused by the idea.

The frustration and confusion factor was what worked best today and with hindsight, any team will know now to play the same way as a team not committing men to the breakdown- take it up the middle, as they eventually figured out. I don't think it requires any rule changes or has changed the face of rugby as we know it as the pundits seemed to suggest! Any 7 or 9 should especially know how to make the most of the offside line (or non-line). You see it all the time but the manner and consistency the Italian's did it caused utter confusion! It is worrying when your captain still doesn't know what has happened in the post match interview.

Here's the Chiefs someone mentioned but if anything the Italians probably did it better: http://www.the42.ie/analysis-chiefs-super-rugby-tactics-2013507-Mar2015/

So, we beat Italy with a BP and are s@@t?? Surely we did sort it out, hence we ended up picking and driving through the middle to circumvent it. Also we changed our kickoff returns to avoid the ruck area.

Our issues were more created by missing touch twice, failing to score a couple of clear opportunities, and switching off for the Ita Penalty on half time gifting them 7 points.

We weren't great, but we got a BP, which was all that counted. Plenty of englands last 17 games haven't been world beating, but in each one we ended up with a W. how many times in the last 5 years would Scotland have traded a gutsy upbeat loss for a scrappy win against the tier 1 nations?

Was a fantastic game to watch,

I agree.

Italy have never beaten England and all the matches between them have either been England running up a big score or everybody wondering why England failed to run up a big score.

This was different. It was interesting, amusing and enjoyable to watch. So well done to Italy.

I bet Cotter has noted how easily England were confused by what is a well known tactic ad is looking thru the lawbook and his book of tricks right now to find some ways to confuse England.

I bet you Scotland come up with some tricks.

Was on hospital visiting dutiy today so missed 1H. Frankly staggered that it took Eng so long to counter the Italian tactic but happy with result and BP

All credit to Italy's coaching team for trying the tactic. Agree that it should only be a relative one hit wonder as people will know what to do now - not hard. Does support my view from a few pages back that players are relying too much on rote plays and not their brains.

FWIW, I am enjoying this 6N. It's close. Scotland are back and have won 2 matches that they should have lost rather than the other way round. Its still open and places for Lions remain hotly contested with some dark horses emerging.

Bravo

Plus its always great when England underperform - the reactions from other supporters are top drawer!!!

@dantsw13 The problem with that result for England is I think, looking into my crystal ball, not putting a stack of points on Italy may end up costing them the championship. Much as it pains me to say it I think England will beat Scotland and Ireland beat Wales. So it will come down to who wins Eng v Ire, and depending on bonus points maybe points difference.

I bet you Scotland come up with some tricks.

[img] [/img]

I certainly still expect England to win over Scotland. Clearly the best side in the 6N even if rather stuttering this year

CFH - how funny would that be if we got the crowd to do it as well?

[img] ?oh=d1465cb0dd618049b44209f6b4654edf&oe=5934C829[/img]

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39096603 ]I'd pay a lot of money Mr Jones.[/url]
Don't like it up 'em. 😆

Owen Farrell was truly pish today.

I firmly believe he's completely overrated. If he's England's best FH why isn't he playing at 10?

The best 12? He's too slow. He's not a great defender. He's no threat carrying the ball. He does throw a good pass but he's in there for his kicking and when his kicking goes off there isn't too much left in the locker to back it up. As we saw today.

Its what I have said about Farrell for a long time - too slow between the ears. He is a decent club 10. YOu have to look not just at what he doies which he does well but what he doesn't do. He doesn't make space or play heads up rugby

It was great watching Farrell with his head down playing no part in the Care try. Truly crap 😯

He isn't a great international 10 but as we seem to say every season... who in the NH is? Broken Johnny is as close as it gets but has one crucial problem. Farrell is however solid in defence and (normally) kicks points like a machine which is crucial at this level. His scoreboard pressure is what normally gets England over the line and without him/ his points England don't look half as comfortable.

Blimey the anti England circle jerk is in rampant mode tonight. Yes England were awful first half......yes it's hilarious that Haskell was repeatedly asking the ref the rules (and was still none the wiser!)

But, England got the bonus point win, I seem to remember Wales not getting one. Yes Farrell was pish today, but he's been one of the world's form players of late and is a shoe in for a Lions spot, one game doesn't take that away!

Hard to watch at times today, but I'm glad that Italy gave us a decent game-I've been firmly in favour of getting rid of them for Georgia over the past couple of years, hopefully this can kick-start O'Shea's reign and see them become much more competitive on a regular basis.

The problem is England are capable of so much more. You can't judge them by the standards of the other NH sides 😉 🙂

confused by what is a [b]well known[/b] tactic

So how many have seen this in a game before

TJ yes
Me No
...

Farrell wasn't up to his usual standard today to be fair. Ford was shit too. O'Teo was OK and Daly was good. Jonnie May? We need Watson fit again, so he can get back to Glaws.

So how many have seen this in a game before

Me - yes. Including in play about twenty years ago!

So how many have seen this in a game before

Same law as allowing the tackler to do what they want after releasing the player and getting to their feet (since they'll be up before a ruck is formed 99% of the time), no?

Problem today was the confusion factor in the way Italy did it.

Itoje, at the scene of a ruck recently....

[img] [/img]

Never on his feet...

Jamba - my missus who is a cricket fan not a rugby fan but watches the pro 12 and Scotland with me recognised it straight away and also recognised that Scotland and Glasgow do it. ( I was at work - she watched the game on her own). Aus did it against Ireland. Pocock does it a fair amount. Barclay does it, Hardie does it. Dunbar does it

Maybe if you watched a bit more rugby outside of the aP / England you would see a bit more variation.

DanW - true. Sexton is decent, Russell goes from sublime to ridiculous in every match, Farrell is limited as is Biggar, Ford has his weaknesses as well. I'd rank them Sexton / Biggar ( for his kick chase) Russell, ford / Farrell. Mind you anyone outside of Scotland know Weir - the scots backup? Barely competent club player

I think Russell could mature into a great FH but also he may always remain flawed like Townsend did. Russell is NOT ready for the lions tho and is not the right sort of player anyway. Remember how young and inexperienced he is.

CPN, I think you should be looking a lot closer to home for problems at the breakdown!! 😉

Well seeing as there weren't any rucks today he did well to levitate as he did

Maybe if you watched a bit more rugby outside of the aP / England you would see a bit more variation.

I don't recall seeing Australia do it either. I don't recall Glasgow doing it against Racing

I don't really watch any AP rugby including when I'm in the UK (last game was 2015 Premiership Final). Top 14, ERC and Internationals.

Look at the pic a page or two back explaining how Aus did it. I have seen it done a fair amount. Glasgow didn't do it against Racing. they attacked the rucks but every now and then they do it. Been doing it for years as an occasional surprise

Yes Farrell was pish today, but he's been one of the world's form players of late and is a shoe in for a Lions spot, one game doesn't take that away!

Yeah but if you take his kicking out of the equation what exactly does he bring to the party?

If Ford's goalkicking was as good as Farrell's then would we need him at 12? All those pundits picked Farrell in a world XV last year but I couldn't see why, except for his kicking.

If you picked a 7s team from the England squad you might have Ford in it but not Farrell.

As TJ says he's a good club player (behind an awesome pack) but all this talk of him being world-class and being as good as JW is nonsense.

Russel got more for nothing but goal kicking!
I think Farrell brings plenty to the table, and id prefer him at 10 to Ford.

England were shite yesterday. However those providing the critique should remember that this team has now won 17 matches in a row, against some quality opposition, as well as Wales & Italy.

For me an interesting sub plot was Haskell asking the questions - not Hartley who on the second occasion walked over in support. Supposedly Hartley was there for his leadership - where was it?

IT'S NOT FAIR!!!
[img] [/img]
😆

Indeed. World class whinging from the england camp and fans

Italy tactics a ‘joke’, says furious Jones | The Times

The Aussies using it last year,sorry it is behind a paywall. I have seen Glasgow use it and Leicester as well. I can't understand how England didn't get a message on from the side,it is fairly easy to work around,but I am sure O'Shea would have prepped for that. Very clever; O'Shea has gone up in my estimation.

This is the classic "but they didn't let us play our gameplan". It's also why I think Scotland should tour developing nations. To remember how to play off the cuff rugby.
Eddy Jones knows both he and his players were out thought. He's angry because he knows it and he no reply. Imagine if ABs had done it.

I don't really understand it - after about 8 minutes I thought, "Why don't England just carry it straight up the middle if there's no ruck?"

So why didn't England figure that out until nearly half time?

I fear it's because successive generations of English players have been coached as to exactly what to do in any given situation and are therefore incapable of thinking for themselves.

EJ has stressed he's trying to get the players to make their own decisions but you can't undo a lifetime of learned behaviour overnight - or at all.

CFH - sorry - but Itoje stays on his feet really well and clamps on.

The difference yesterday was the constancy of the tactic. Every time the 9 tried to pass he had 2 defenders blocking the pass. Most other times you see it as a one-off.

But, England got the bonus point win, I seem to remember Wales not getting one.

YEAH BUT WE BEAT WALES WE BEAT WALES...WALES WE BEAT YOU!!!

Oh and as an aside. Itoje is going to get pinged off the park for going off his feet at some point, I just hope its after the Lions tour.

I've reflected on it more overnight and irrespective of if you think England should have responded more quickly and adapted it's still a pretty negative tactic. To not compete for the ball when you have the opportunity to but merely surround the play to cut off options is really the act of a capitulating team trying to limit the size of the loss. Once opposition teams are 'programmed' to know what to do when they see it to nullify it there becomes much less point. So it's a tactic for losers and very few teams enter a match with that as there mindset so it will fade away quickly. The only time I could see it as a viable option would be if one team gained a sizeable lead at the beginning of a match and there was a momentum swing(maybe injury to key players for a team with a mediocre bench) and they were hanging on at the end.

I think the most telling comments are that Jones wanted to deflect from his teams poor performance. Ford and Farrell both kicked poorly from hand.
Farrell missed a lot of goals, but most were sideline conversions.
After the first 2 scrums (Cole unfairly pinged IMHO - -Italian went under him) we were in complete control over the set piece. Our line out defence was top class and I think we were 100% on our own ball.
The Campo try was the only time we missed tackles - we withheld a lot of pressure without looking troubled.
Daly had another good game, Brown did very well under the high ball, Itoje was everywhere and........ WE WON. Again.With a BP.

Italy beat SA. Could've beaten Wales. Next match I'm looking forward to all the criticism of what England can't do, hopefully after another under-par win.

For me the strangest thing was changing scrum half when Care had worked it out as was a threat with his pace.

Yes spoiling, nothing wrong with it, England slow to react, Jones maybe at fault for this as easier to see when removed from the action, but ultimately the players should recognise much quicker how to counter the tactic.

Think back to Wales failed exit that cost them the game and they should have gone through another phase as that is their standard practice, rugby is so structured that anything outside of that often causes a problem. Englands structure was thrown out of the window they didn't react well at all.

Hard to comment on the performance of the backs in a game like that as not much ball made it out of the contact area.

Itoje doesn't go off his feet otherwise refs would penalise him, as they don't then he's legal.

So it's a tactic for losers

Well the Chiefs have deployed it frequently in Super Rugby and they've consistently been one of the top sides in recent years, winning the title twice.

True he was deflecting criticism and usually like his straightforward responses but I felt he was a bit sour yesterday. He should have left it at the "well done Italy's coaching team" bit. The rest was overly sour grapes

Still keep the flak coming because it's crap being the side who is 3:3 and with a BP and who has the ability to turn a poor iH around rather than being one that dominates the 1H then manages to lose with poor decision making thrown in 😉

Itoje doesn't go off his feet otherwise refs would penalise him, as they don't then he's legal.

He does and sooner or later it will start to be looked at by refs. My worry is that the pressure will be ramped up by the Kiwis prior to the fisrt Lions test and the refs will go looking.
He's a great player and will be key for the Lions but I can see the problems coming. Can he adapt?

I suspect Itoje is smart enough to adapt McCaw style - push the ref, get pinged, scale it back a bit.

That's what all good players do - either that or yap at the ref/plead for the whistle 😉

lol at "tactic for losers"

Haven't the SH been saying that about England's (well, NH's) 9 man rugby for years? 😉 🙂

If you watch carefully, he's very attuned to the ref, and let's go instantly he gets told to.

If you watch carefully, he's very attuned to the ref, and let's go instantly he gets told to.

True, its more his superman dives into rucks and not supporting his weight when going for the ball

Nothing well done about it. As I said Ventner should be ashamed. All this on a weekend when England stood up for Italy being part of the 6N despite being ranked lower than Georgia. Maybe the last team should be relegated.

True, its more his superman dives into rucks and not supporting his weight when going for the ball

Shades of O'Driscoll

Sour grapes and whinging much? From people who don't understand the game and from a team without enough brains to work it out?

Nothing well done about it.

Was it OK when Aus did it to Ireland. Gustard said they planned for it.

On relegation - I would be happy for the team finishing last to play a playoff with the team top of the 2nd tier european comp which has been Georgia for a while - so long as they were financially looked after. Not straight relegation tho.

The IRB should insist that the Georgians get decent amounts of AIs - like italy did for the decade before they entered the 5N. In that decade Italy won a few games to show they were worth a place.