[Closed] Rugby - 6 nations.

France could happily stuff Wales. England could happily stuff Ireland.

Glitchery

Andy Robinson best start practising his Italian..."cucchiaio di legno"

Much as I'd love to hear the sound of choking coming from the Millennium, there's no earthly way that they can all conspire to get rid of that kind of points differential.

England perhaps to win, but by no more than 6-10, Wales to win by a decent margin.

The French would have to absolutely run amok away from home. Their hearts weren't in it when they were still in with a sniff of the slam, let alone after Sunday.

Super Saturday will be an excellent display of Rugby. There's a lot of talk of 'which French side' will play....but I think it depends on which Welsh team turn up. If the Welsh are fired up and mentally prepared in the sense of 'we deserve to win' instead of handing away the victory (a la South Africa & France in the RWC) then the game will be incredible. England and Ireland both go into their game with points to prove and Scotland v Italy will be a close encounter, with every point of the low scoring game bitterly fought. It will be scrappy, but there will be the flashes of brilliance that both teams are capable of.

My 2p....

wrecker - Member
I'd just settle for someone growing a pair and sorting the scrums out.
It worked perfectly well before and was a far better contest. I used to love seeing scrums. I dread them now. I don't think there's any evidence of the new methods reducing [s]injuries[/s] the possibility of anybody suing their home union for a neck injury.

Posted 2 hours ago #

FTFY
That is why scrums are depowered. Oh and TJ's are meant to mark the offside line, but not alert the ref to it (if we are miked up)allowing the Ref to use us as a guide. (and you lot thought it was just running up and down the line with a flag)

Imagine this: TJ working as a TJ........

morgs - Member
Imagine this: TJ working as a TJ........

Oh no......!

Surely the hit is more dangerous now? Anyone got a good vid of an old style scrum?

[url= http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2012/rugby/story/161047.html ]France change six for Wales game[/url]

Building for next year already?

Duckman, to my uneducated view the hit seems to be the root of almost all evil in the scrum. Can we not get ride and have the old style scrums with no pudhing till the ball comes in? I dont get it.

Ioum those are just changes to the sqaud, apart from Clerc and Dupuy he could pick an unchanged side. Lets just hope Picamoles, Servat and Oeudrago dont start looks like Para will start, will be interesting to see who plays 10.

Tight shirts on fat props means they struggle to bind properly/securely.
Crooked feeds means there is little opportunity to nick one, therefore getting a penalty somehow is the best that can be hoped for.
C/T/P/E is horribly slow, and I hated it, but since neither side is supposed to push until the ball is in, and the ball shouldn't go in until the scrum is steady, in theory it shouldn't be the cause of all the problems.

Can we not get rid and have the old style scrums with no pushing till the ball comes in? I dont get it

Neither do I. A lot of people would like to see a return to this, but apparently the risk of broken necks is higher? I played in the front row before these huge hits came in but I fail to see how they are somehow safer.

Right, the scrum was changed to try and stop spinal injuries and also because there were a number of cases against unions because they had not been seen to do anything about it. One man can't ref a scrum so....No change at junior level, for senior rugby ie, top amateur/pro;

Control the hit, creep forward = straight pen,no reset or warning. Once they hit, any bind above the waist. Other prop pulling you down? fix it yourself. At every level props now go down/up if they do not get an immediate advantage.We have taken away the contest and narrowed down the scrum to the initial hit and the two secs immediately after that. Free bindings would allow props to adjust. Props at senior level are streetwise enough to negate the risk of injury and be able to work their opo's initial advantage to their own benefit.
Just my tuppence.

So in summary the hit is the problem because as you say if you loose it you go down for a reset or you get pinged for not binding? It must be harder to bind if you loose the hit?

and why the **** do refs often give free kicks which arent as good an attacking platform as a solid scrum, its a farce.

progressive binding? take the Hit away entirely?

anyway Tom Croft...show pony this is what your six should be doing:

France's entire back-row is a doubt ahead of the Six Nations clash with Grand Slam-chasing Wales on Saturday.
Captain Thierry Dusautoir (knee), Imanol Harinordoquy (knee) and Julien Bonnaire (elbow) are all concerns.

Mind games? Or real? That's a real loss to the game if any of them are out.

There's not a huge gulf between the two sides. Anyone who believes differently is kidding themselves

Agreed - and I quite like it actually. Makes it easy to see gameplans and tactics coming to the fore, instead of who makes the fewest handling errors or gives away the least penalties like it has been at times.

Bonnaire? For the life of me I cant work out what he's supposed to be doing cause it surely cannot be that he's asked to just stand back and watch Dusatoir do all the work. I think France were playing two 6.5's and they seemed to scrum just left and right but Bonnaire did sweet FA all game. Picamoles also looks more of a threat ball in hand than Harry Ordinary at the moment.

Check out this gif its great Italian player appears to be punching his team mate, Ian Evans looks most bemused.

The best 6s, of which I was never one but I did play alongside one of the greatest there has ever been at schoolboy level, seemingly never do anything. Much like tighthead props, the work they do is hard to see sometimes, but they really win games.

A-A As I said,in my experience, if teams don't get an immediate advantage, they want to try again. I played during the transition period and that was the idea,if we got a good hit, then play. If not then we will go again,thanks. I think it is the same mentality as there is no time to scrummage because the ball goes in as soon as the props come together,by the time you shift your bind the ball is at the opo 8's feet.

TJ; won't work, second row would fall over/not get a bind, making the props less secure, trying to give S/R a bind at the same times as dealing with their own foot position etc. C-T-P-E is a progressive engage in theory. However it has evolved into ready-aim-fire!
You are prob unaware of this, but at a decent level a ref will spend at least 5 mins with each skipper telling them exactly how they ref a game including the scrum.I set out my stall before a game, I give both front rows the cadence I will bring them together. I don't vary this and if they can't follow this then they will spend a lot of time walking back 10m. Not perfect, but current rules (led by SH) have made the scrum a mess and as said v difficult to police.As I said fewer offences = fewer broken rules. 😀

Nice gif aa got one of the dive from the Ireland game? still haven't seen it

Bonnaire is ****ing world class then because i cant even tell what position he plays!!!

No gifs of other games i' m afraid. I nicked them from gwlad so they only do welsh ones!!

So are you saying Bonnaire is shit and that croft is a show pony?
Do you think lydiate is better than either?

One of my great confusions with the modern game is why the attributes of a balanced back row are so rigidly attributed to particular shirt numbers, as long as you have the ball winning, ball securing and ball carrying covered - does it matter who does what?

You took your time! Wait till Zokes reads it!!!!
Bonnaire i couldnt work out what his role was, not sure he knew either. Maybe it was due to the obvious plan france had to pressure england and kick long went thoroughly tits up and France decided they had to chuck it about.
Hard to compare Croft and Lydiate, they are as different as apples and pears. Croft needs a 6.5 alongside him to flourish whereas Lydiate is a more classical 6. Both very good players both better than Bonnaire but not as good as Dusatoir

Mefty the roles dont matter as much as balance. Croft fits the england back row whereas he wouldnt fit the welsh. Englands lacks a bit of balance due to no out and out 7 whereas for wales Faletau plays more like a flanker which means we lack carriers.

I think England are playing a system I played in for many years which essentially involves using your inside centre as a third flanker - I used to oscillate between the two, albeit in the coarse end of the sport. Once you take that in account, I think they achieve decent balance. It does rely on your 10 being a complete game manager.

You could be right Mefty, for all Croft is amazing in the loose and superb in the lineout, he's not as good at the foraging on the floor. I happen to think that Ireland are really missing BOD in this respect.

Interesting. Wales are playing Spikey as another back row player some times, IMO. Interesting versatility.

Hard to compare Croft and Lydiate, they are as different as apples and pears. Croft needs a 6.5 alongside him to flourish whereas Lydiate is a more classical 6. Both very good players both better than Bonnaire but not as good as Dusatoir

Spot on. I think robshaw is a better 6 than either though. He's actually out of position on 7 but not doing a bad job ( and being crofts 6.5)
Lions back row of warbs, o'brian and robshaw is a mouth watering prospect IMO. 2 englishmen and an irishman 😀

warbs, o'brian and robshaw

Bit short for the tail of the lineout but would be intresting to say the least!!

Just let them have the ball. They wouldn't keep it long!

Wales are playing Spikey as another back row player some times

Spikey and Faletau are the reasons for Wales excellent defence IMO, both tackle like flankers and slow down opposition ball. Compare that to the classic role of the 9 as sweeper or the role that Parisse, Harry Ordinary and Morgan have compared to Faletau. Faletau never drops deep to return kicks, I guess Wales assume that North and Cuthbert are capable of doing kick returns into traffic which means Wales have an extra man in the defensive line.

Although he had an outstanding game, to be fair Croft has been jogging along at a comfortable 6 out of 10 for the last season or two.

The point I was making is there is too much orthodoxy in six nations rugby - the french used to be kings at this - wings throwing in - hookers acting as scrum half - my own theory which I would love to see tried out is using blind and open side wingers in attack - I would have loved seeing Jason Robinson playing blind side winger.

Croft was one of the stand out players of the 2009 Lions, and I reckon that was one of his best days since then. He's often at that level for Leicester, however that's not against a full international team obviously. I don't think you're wrong about the inside centre, and I reckon that's why croft is so often in the outside centre position, well, that and the fact he used to be faster than all but one Leicester winger so he's not a bad bloke to go into the backs! Just glad to see him play that well for England, now all we need is Floody back to form.
Intersting that Martin Johnson had no idea how to play to get the individual performances like that. Lancaster must be doing something right

Croft is a very un Martin Johnson sort of a player though depending on what you want from your 6 he is either uniquely gifted or a pointless waste of space. World class lineout work, ability to defend wide out and running given space but his close in contact work is fine but he lacks the physique to do anything destructive. Played for the Lions with Wallace at 7 did he not? Wallace is a typical 6.5

I know, the poor little bloke is one 6'5 and 16.5st. Just like Neil Back, simply too small for international rugby

tu farsand tu undred

Glitcheroo

being 6foot five is a distinct disadvantage when trying to slow/steal opposition ball, if being tall and fast was a help Shingler would have done a better job against scotland

A_a is correct. I've never understood why croft doesn't play 7. His speed and brain would be a real asset there in both defence and attack. Just like Neil back.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
You took your time! Wait till Zokes reads it!!!!

Show pony or not, he's still a very good player.

I cant cope with wrecker agreeing with me i'm off to bed to dream of grand slams!!!

Any Lions back row would benefit from Ferriss.
He's the most balanced player - tackling, winning ball , securing ball, carrying, passing.
And the Aussies are sh1t scared of him.
Gotta agree Croft had his best international game in years though.

The scrum half / back row point was perfectly illustrated in the Ireland Scotland game. Connor Murray does a similar job, and made a load of tackles in the French game, but Reddan's more suited to covering behind for kicks thriough and the like.
They didn't change the system, and ended up with a defensive line with Reddan (5'9") against Gray ( 8' ish). Didn't really work.

defensive line with Reddan (5'9") against Gray ([b] 8' ish[/b]). Didn't really work.

😀

So Warbs, Ferris and Robshaw loam?
Can Ferris play 8?

Robshaw? No chance, in fact I would go as far as to say he will not even be in the England team this time next year.

I bet he is. I'll also bet he goes on the Lions tour.
He's been groomed.

Apparently he can do (Ferris), but I've not seen it myself. Think I'd rather he was at 6, I reckon he's the best blindside there is. At the moment I see the back row as Warbs, Ferris +1 other.
The +1 could be O'Brien, Faletau, Robshaw, Denton, Rennie, Lydiate, Heaslip, Haskell, Croft, Barclay. In something like that order (ish).
I do think its that open - and those players are all good enough. It depends on the gameplan/shape that they decide to play and the balance with the locks they chose (and how much we need a lineout jumper too) If its up front, then SOB is a beast and plays well at 6,7 &8 ; but robshaw's fine too. If its wider then Faletau or even Croft.
A-a talked above about Faletau playing almost as a flanker defesively, but I've been really impressed with him as a ball carrier. He takes a lot of ball in the centres area, with JDavies running off him, and nearly always makes good yards. But the team that defended him best was England, with Robshaw.
Think we've loads of good options for 6/8 but Warbs stands out at 7, mainly to stop Pocock being first to the ball every time. Problem is he doesn't seem to play or finnish every match, and there needs to be cover for his pace either on the bench or elsewhere in the back row. I think Rennie's the best bet for cover on the bench because of this pace, but if pushed Faletau could be quick enough too (starting at 8 but move to 7 if/when warbs injured), allowing room on the bench for a real wildcard like Denton.

Edit: coming off the fence - Ferris, Warburton, O'Brien. With Faletau as the bench cover.

C Healy
R Ford
A Jones
R Gray
P O’Connell
S Ferris
S Warburton
S O'Brien

M Phillips
J Sexton
G North
J Roberts
B O’Driscoll
M Tuilagi
R Kearney

D cole/ G Jenkins
D Hartley/ R Best
A W Jones/ D Ryan
T faletau
C Murray
O Farrell
L Halfpenny

Faletau very rarely breaks the gain line. Solid tackler but lacks something. Rennie, although a good player is nowhere near the other players mentioned in your post.
Opensides; Warbs/Barclay(?)
8s; O'brien/Denton
Blinds; Robshaw/Ferris
It took a bit of thinking to come up with an alternative to warbs. Wales aside, we aren't exactly rich in quality 7s at the moment.
I reckon robshaw will be moved to 6 when wood is fit as croft blows hot and cold.

I like the look of the team Loum has picked, my one plus would be Barclay as cover. He is playing out of position for Scotland to allow Rennie easier passage into International rugby,despite this I think he has adapted well and can cover both 6 and 7 and looks like an international even out of position.Rennie does not have the ground game (yet) but it will come. We will need an out and out ferret to negate Pocock who is right up there with Smith as a 7 imo. I also feel Denton needs another couple of seasons on int rugby before he is the finished article.

C Healy
R Best
A Jones
R Gray
C Lawes
C Robshaw
S Warburton
S O'Brien

M Phillips
O Farrell
G North
J Roberts
M Tuilagi
T Bowe
R Kearney

D Cole/ G Jenkins
D Hartley/ Rees
Charteris/ P O'Connor
S Ferris
J Davies
J Sexton
J Hook
Both of our selections betray our allegiences (just a bit!).
No Tommy Bowe loam? madness!

Maybe Barclay is the man to cover after all, I'd be fine with that.
Like I said, covering the openside position seams key to me.
If Barclay's already on for a Warb injury , D Ryan can always play 6 well.

It was sad to see Tom Rees retire last week, one of the few pure 7s to emerge in English rugby.

[i]No Tommy Bowe loam? madness!
[/i]
Hardest call I ever made. 🙁

But the midweek team would have 15 tommy Bowes 😆

Ireland team announced.
SOB's back in.

[i]Ireland side:

R Kearney (Leinster); T Bowe (Ospreys), K Earls (Munster), G D'Arcy (Leinster), A Trimble (Ulster); J Sexton (Leinster), E Reddan (Leinster); C Healy (Leinster), R Best (Ulster, capt), M Ross (Leinster), D O'Callaghan (Munster), D Ryan (Munster), S Ferris (Ulster), S O'Brien (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster)

Replacements: S Cronin (Leinster), T Court (Ulster), M McCarthy (Connacht), P O'Mahony (Munster), T O'Leary (Munster), R O'Gara (Munster), F McFadden (Leinster)[/i]

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2012/rugby/story/161095.html

SOB's back in.

A-a talked above about Faletau playing almost as a flanker defesively, but I've been really impressed with him as a ball carrier. He takes a lot of ball in the centres area, with JDavies running off him, and nearly always makes good yards.

He does pick some lovely angles but doesnt make the hard yards as well but then he is only about 12. His tackling and rucking and overall workrate are astonishing, he's got a massive engine..Kind of the polar oposite to ben Morgan. I think his carrying close to ruck and maul will improve as he gets stronger.

Lions 15 thus far on form I would say is:

Kearney
Bowe
Tuilagi
12.erm Roberts maybe (he only has to be better than the others not at his best)
North
Farral
Phillips
Denton
Rennie
Ferris
Grey
POC
Adam
Ford
Gethin

Bench is itresting as you will need someone who is ambipropsous and the top candiates Adam, Gethin, Healy, Cole arent as far as I know so people like The Fat Baby Coke head or Paul James come into the equation without being near the top of the tree as do Hook and 1/2p or Ryan Jones. In fact Ryan Jones woul be the first in any squad I would pick this year, has played brilliantly in any position he's asked to cover and would make the perfect mid week captain.

by next year I would imagine we could see:

Foden
Cuthert
Tuilagi
Roberts
North
Farrel
Phillips
Faletau/Denton
Warburton
Ferris
Grey
Bradley Davis
Adam
Ford
Healey

Just how bad would darcey have to be and for how long before he got dropped?

Not been at his best, but Declan Kidney's a pretty loyal coach.
Who would you play instead? Downey?

There must be a way to avoid the Fat baby coke head. He can't go.
This profile suggests we may have a candidate :
http://www.rfu.com/SquadsAndPlayers/EnglandElite/AlexCorbisiero

I'd not look further than the welsh centres at present. Still think Tuilagi has too many question marks against him.

Please can some take Robinson aside and give him a bottle of whisky and a pistol!

Peter Murchie - uncapped Glasgow Centre, Alex Cuthbert (fullback) - barely able to make it into the Bath team and Alex Grove called up.

Hello - Jim Thompson is the best full back that is Scotland qualified IMO and there are other candidates in Tom Brown.

Grove is another good pick we have been crying out for for months!

Arrggghhhhhhhhh

a-a, the darcy thing -
Edit: TBH, Darcy's probably safe 'cos of the youngster's round him : they're keeping one old head. Murray, Sexton, Earls, McFadden all need to build some international experience - and with BOD out, he won't get dropped. It's been Ronan, Darcy, BOD for a long time now but I think BOD will be the only one starting next year.
Problem is, most of the strength coming through is from outside centre outwards.
There's talk of Tommy Bowe playing centre next year too, but I'd see him more as an outside C. One of him or BOD may have to move inside, and might surprise us. Someone's needed at inside C for sure.

TJ, I thought you favoured greater gun control. 😉
The one exception?
Maybe he still has his house down Bath, otherwise that's some commitment for a scouting trip.

Scamper, I reckon they'll all go- but Roberts & BOD to start.

BOD can easily play 12 with Bowe outside I would imagine. Lot of miles on BOD's clock now though and I wonder if he will be as effective when he returns, he hasnt been at is best for a while now.

Loum, if Corbisero can cover both to a decent levels he's in the squad IMO. Gethin used to but hasnt some quite a few years now.

Backrow choices you'd imagine 6 from Ferris, SOB, Hisplip, Warburton, Lydiate, Faletau, Ryan Jones, Croft, Denton and Rennie, some tough choices.

Dear God! Not Cuthbert. If he is in the squad,he might make the bench...or somebody might get injured and...no,it's too horrible to think about 🙁

, Alex Cuthbert (fullback)

Do you get the feeling Robinson has been frantically searching Scottish clubs for anyone called Roberts, North, Davies, Williams, etc?

😉

Dopplegangerpost.

Tom Brown can't be international 15.

I dropped him 4 times in one season. Here on that form maybe i can get AR's(e) job.

loum funny you mention Bowe at 13, with Ulster just having signed him, we are well covered on the wing but are quite thin at 13 with really only the injury prone Darren Cave, IRFU might be up to something here.

As for Darcy he has been living on reputation for about 3 seasons now and its time for a change. Just not many options out there.

I think that there will be many twists in the lions selections but here is my effort

Healy
Best
Jones
Gray
Jones
Ferris
Warb
Denton
Murray
Farrell
North
Tuilagi
Bod
Bowe
Kearney/Foden

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17359782 ]Top player nominations - no England[/url]

[img] [/img]
He doesn't look too bothered 😀

Some strange choices and omissions, without going into the balance from each nation, they've not alway's picked the most impressive players from each side.
Wales - no North
France - no Fofana
Scotland - no Gray
Ireland - no Bowe
(England - no Tuilagi ? )

Missed my guitar lesson last week due to this lot recording for scrum[v]

"They're bad losers and hopefully they'll be bad losers on Saturday."

They're bad losers

A bit rich coming from the team who got stroppy because they drew only a couple of weeks ago. I expect all professional teams to be bad losers to a degree. Look at wales after the France game in the RWC. It's natural and shows passion. I'd rather that than behavior like Easters; "well there's £30k down the drain" etc.

It's this that does it for me...

"They come with bit of a tag about being arrogant and if you asked any team they'd probably say the same thing."

Team, fans and commentators 🙄