Forum menu
The Tory One Nation group has, somewhat predictably, wet the bed and said they’ll support Sunaks Rwanda bill tomorrow as long as he really promises not to make it even nastier
I’m not sure Cruella, Honest Bob and the ERG/New Conservative headbangers are ready to be as accommodating.
Another fun day in store for Lil Rishi tomorrow
would you want to be on the receiving end of that?
And there's the nub - I agree it sounds morally horrendous, especially with the current clowns in charge, and it would be healthcare staff actually making the ultimate call face to face with patients and their families BUT in a different kind of pandemic or other national crisis how and where do you focus your limited resources in both the short term and the longer term to best rebuild society/the economy afterwards?
While I'm playing devil's advocate here to a degree, part of this inquiry's purpose is to look at lessons to learn in case a more severe event happens - which must include thinking about the unthinkable. There will always be a finite pot of NHS money for an infinite number of patients and conditions - quality of life vs cost decisions are already taken into by NICE, a pandemic makes the choices more public.
Personally - I'm in my 50s, if I had to be left to take my chances/die in order to safeguard the future of my kids and their generation, I'd like to think I could accept having to take that chance. If I had to sacrifice my kids to help save others, I suspect my views would be very different.
The Tory One Nation group has, somewhat predictably, wet the bed and said they’ll support Sunaks Rwanda bill tomorrow as long as he really promises not to make it even nastier
I’m not sure the ERG/New Conservative headbangers are ready to be as accommodating.
I thought I'd heard on the radio that the headbangers wanted the bill scrapping so that a properly watertight version could be introduced - that seemed a way of kicking the ball down the road rather than imploding the party. "We promise to...." in the GE manifesto will read better than "We failed to...."
How many factions are there?
One Nation, ERG, New Conservatives.
What next - the STI (single tory initiative)?
^^ I'd agree with the MCtD devil's advocacy to an extent, but most methodologies to weigh alternative courses of action involve the concept of the quality adjusted life year (QALY). The fact he pronounced it "kway Lee", today when irrelevantly citing an analysis which concluded it was time to end lockdowns, tells me at least that he was reading a line in his briefing. He's the Mr Spreadsheet who's never actually spoken to a health economist. He's the tech bro who genuinely can't back up his WhatsApp or ask anyone to do it for him. He's a tetchier Mr Bean.
as ever its the erg headbangers that pose the threat to sunak
the one more moderate ones don't want to destroy the party, they put up with far worse from Johnson
I’m not sure Cruella, Honest Bob and the ERG/New Conservative headbangers are ready to be as accommodating.
TBH Who knows what they've been offered,Didn't BJ get his oven ready deal thru by saying he'd tear it up later.
MCTD - agree completely that it's morally horrendous but it could strengthen the case for MMT - move away from economic orthodoxy and adopt a heterodox approach.
Move away from concerns about the deficit and hand-wringing about what we can't pay for; invest (even) more in the NHS to significantly increase capacity, replace decrepit infrastructure, ramp up staff recruitment and training.
We can't save that life because of budgetary constraints should never be a consideration.
You wrote
if I had to be left to take my chances/die in order to safeguard the future of my kids and their generation, I’d like to think I could accept having to take that chance. If I had to sacrifice my kids to help save others, I suspect my views would be very different.
My only point of difference would be that, regarding my children/grandchildren, my views would definitely be very different.
For wanting to challenge and ask for “bean counter” analysis, or for not documenting he had challenged it to protect his arse?
The analysis was done with what was known… let’s not pretend it wasn’t to suit his little narrative about being the only one looking for alternatives to lockdown… everyone was looking for them. What he, after the event, was doing there was playing up to the anti-lockdown sentiment in his own party. That he thought at that time that talk of allowing more of the old to die would help him win over his party members shows just how detached he is from them, never mind the rest of us, and how he could not understand what had happened outside his little protected world during the first waves of the pandemic, or appreciate the loss many were still feeling so keenly.
It seems like he's said "eat out to help out" was safe, but also that he didn't seek any scientific advice on it... But he doesn't seem to really have been challenged on that, how the hell can you even have an opinion on safe or not without that advice? I mean, I know he didn't think it was safe, of course but that's not really the point.
Thing that gets me over and over is these absolute planks who thought you could put the economy above dealing with a pandemic. Like, you know what's really bad for the economy? A pandemic. You know how to look after the economy? Fight the pandemic, don't just surrender to it.
He wasn’t really challenged on anything much at all. Easier ride than previous attendees.
how the hell can you even have an opinion on safe or not without that advice? I mean, I know he didn’t think it was safe, of course but that’s not really the point
Well we now know Rwanda is apparently a safe country because Rishi has signed a treaty saying it is
Maybe he had a similar arrangement with the virus?
How do they get away with the blatant lies regarding Whatsapp messages?
Seems like they may not! https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/john-edwards-cabinet-office-information-commissioner-mps-government-b1085921.html
This could cause a problem for a Tech-Bro trying to go back to America and also for a certain badly stuffed sofa. An unspent criminal conviction will mess ups trips to the States.
The dildo of consequence looms.
That article is dated 6 June so, unless I've missed something, what's new?
If I had to sacrifice my kids to help save others, I suspect my views would be very different.
And if I had to sacrifice your kids my view would be different than yours which is exactly why choices that don't actually need to be made should not be made.
Fruit and nuts with the fruit and nuts for breakfast for Rishi today. Imagine being faced with Mark Francois and Bill Cash first thing in the morning
LOL 😆 The Daily Mail publishing negative (and apparently exclusive) stories about greedy Tory MPs:
https://www.****/news/article-12851673/Tory-MP-charges-taxpayers-6-Pritt-Stick.html
IME when the Daily Mail covers a less than positive story about a Tory MP they usually leave out the bit about them being Tory from the headline, in this case they emphasis it.
Dunno if someone is going to get into trouble or whether the Daily Mail has picked up the mood of the nation and decided to join in.
An unspent criminal conviction will mess ups trips to the States.
Neither of them is ever going to have the slighest difficulty entering the US.
Dunno if someone is going to get into trouble or whether the Daily Mail has picked up the mood of the nation and decided to join in.
Warning shot to some of the tory mps that they need to get behind the heils employee of the month in his come back bid?
IME when the Daily Mail covers a less than positive story about a Tory MP they usually leave out the bit about them being Tory from the headline, in this case they emphasis it.
Probably means they've got some dirt on him.
Today, the story about the Pritt Stick.
Tomorrow, the one with the rent boys and cocaine unless...
And then he'll be forced to jump to the DM tune and do their bidding for a bit.
finite pot of NHS money
As the usual people may post here, that is not really true. What is finite are the resources, human and material, to provide healthcare, which cannot be increased overnight no matter how much money is thrown at the problem. Hence all those Nightingale Hospitals doing very little as there were no extra suitably trained staff to work in them. They would have served as places for people to die with some semblance of care if things had got really bad (ie no lockdown perhaps).
Dunno if someone is going to get into trouble or whether the Daily Mail has picked up the mood of the nation and decided to join in.
Nah, the daily fail believe they are the mood of the nation much like gbeebees think they speak for the "silent majority" 😕
C'mon Rishi, call their bluff and call an election. It's the only thing left to do.
You'd think he'd have had enough by now and going being a tech bro in California would be much more appealing? He's only delaying the inevitable anyway.
Its mad that this absolutely insane policy - shipping a couple of hundred people to Africa - is the hill he's chosen to die on. And the crazy assumption that the headbangers would stop short of anything other than firing all immigrants into the sun?
Absolutely politically clueless!
Did Curella and her stilletto get an invite ?
She was busy on a golf driving range with a 3 wood and a big bag of baby hamsters
Having worked for various Silicon Valley multinationals of various sizes, I feel I have to point out that while “Tech Bro” is a juicy slur, Rishi isn’t one. He’s more like a “Trust Fund ***hole” - arriving with bags of cash to buy opportunities at role-playing in the technology industry.
I shouldn't be suprised but I am actually flabberghasted
And the reason for returning is to vote in this flecking Rwanda nonsense......
GE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It just illustrates what we all already know.
These lot don't give a toss about anyone or anything other than their own ongoing factional psychodrama
Theres also the small matter of an Asylum Seeker taking their own life on the Bibby Stockholm this morning
And what are these lot doing? Pulling their plums out to make life for asylum seekers even worse
They really are subhuman scum. The sooner they're cast out into the political wilderness, the better
I'm just so sick of the blatant lying, direct to the face of the questioner.
There's no way he 'lost' his WhatsApp messages when he changed phones. Everybody has upgraded a phone and knows that's not how it works.
Cleverly did say that town was a shithole and pretending he was talking about the person is obviously untrue - we all know that phrase is about a place not a person.
Let's not even start on Johnson.
I'm not a Tory voter, but I recognise that it's usually a perfectly valid choice. Now though, anyone who votes for this bunch of liars deserves to be shunned by everyone else. There's no excuse for it.
Theres also the small matter of an Asylum Seeker taking their own life on the Bibby Stockholm this morning
Just read this on the Beeb.
This is the real cost of these sh*t heads. This isn't just politics, this is about real people.
Utter scum.
supernova
There’s no way he ‘lost’ his WhatsApp messages when he changed phones. Everybody has upgraded a phone and knows that’s not how it works.
He started a court action against the order to release them, lost that, and now it turns out he didn't have them in the first place.
Today, the story about the Pritt Stick.
So... I was just scrolling back through this thread and assumed that comment was in relation to some revelation about a former home sec, the bundle of kindness and loving that is Ms P Patel.
Ooof! Anyway, wish I hadn't bothered to read that story... (nearly always the case when I follow a Daily Mail link)... a stationery bill... including a glue stick not bought in the cheapest way (last minute grab at a corner shop, train station or service station probably)... meh... we have MPs openly calling for an end to the division of responsibilities between courts and the executive when it comes to people's rights in law... all government MPs abandoning COP when it most needs leadership to not give into the fossil fuel lobby... who gives a fig about an over priced glue stick?
I recently changed phones and did lose all my WhatsApps, so it is possible if you select the option of never backing them up, as I do.
What is impossible to believe, is that he would accidentally lose them that way if in fact he intended to keep them.
I also lose my whatsapps whenever I change phone because it is just conversation to me and I can live without the old messages.
The thing is it is very obvious that this is going to happen and I get many warnings so if I used them for business or government purposes I would have to be totally incompetent to lose them
the other thing with WhatsApp is it's a massive issue in banking - which is Sunak's background!
Everyone knows WhatsApp is perfect for shiftiness and insider trading. Especially if you then 'lose' your messages. Banks get fined millions for letting staff use it. Many large banks ban it altogether, for compliance reasons. Staff have to use in-house messaging systems that log the chats instead.
It's ludicrous that we - parliament, the media, the public - let politicians go on record and say 'sorry, the dog ate my homework', as though that's a reasonable excuse for the leader of the ****ing country. He wouldn't get away with it at Goldman Sachs, it'd be a massive fine and instant dismissal. As PM he can just shrug it off, pretend he was just really thick, and carry on as normal.
So the DUP cannot support the Rwanda bill but haven't confirmed whether they'll vote against or abstain.
Do they see a further opportunity to extract money from the gov to buy off their opposition - following in Arlene's footsteps?
https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1734628377917563024?t=TBX3YiYrAzpGSssfTkaPsw&s=19
Meanwhile, on the Tory backbenches, bigotry, xenophobia and stupidity reign supreme.
I think I can guess which way this cretinous idiot will be voting on the Rwanda bill.... 🙄
Meanwhile, on the Tory backbenches, bigotry, xenophobia and stupidity reign supreme.
He also said:
Immigration has turned Doncaster into a “ghetto”,
Speaking in the Commons, Don Valley MP Nick Fletcher said: “I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Doncaster is full.”
He added: “We are turning parts of our community into a ghetto.”
Doncaster has been a Ghetto for all of my living memory!
I heard on the News Agents podcast that the 'Rwanda Plan' involves sending tops 200 individuals a year. As that's a drop in the ocean in relation to immigration numbers in general.<br /><br />Morality & legality of it aside it seems a very odd and low impact change hill to die on? <br /><br /><br />
I think I can guess which way this cretinous idiot will be voting on the Rwanda bill…. 🙄
Blokes like this are a bit of an inspiration.
Proof you can be a pig-thick ****ing plank and still ascend to high office.
Looks like the thick-as-mince, racist Brexiteers are going all misty-eyed for the days when the electoral maths gave their particular monkey a machine gun
It looks like it’ll be like May and the Northern Ireland protocol all over again, but now Jenrick and Cruella are squabbling over who gets to play the Boris role
it seems a very odd and low impact change hill to die on?
Absolute political cluelessness of epic proportions to expend so much capital (financial and political) on something that is ultimately totally pointless
the ‘Rwanda Plan’ involves sending tops 200 individuals a year.
I heard that in a BBC interview, for once the interviewer was doing their job well. As the interviewer pointed out the Rwanda plan would deport the same number in a year as entered in a weekend. Total maddness.
If there are 57 or more abstentions the bill will fail.
I don't know how many are represented by the 'five families' - sounds like the mafia - and the DUP with 8 MPs have said they cannot support the bill.
This could be very tight.
One way forward for the tory antis to show their opposition without sinking the bill would be to split their opposition between votes against and abstentions.
very odd and low impact change hill to die on?
Very expensive and very low impact, even if you take the moral/humanitarian aspect out of it, and look at it purely as a business decision, there is no metric I can think of that makes it look anything other than completely stupid and a total waste of money.
Very expensive
Good point. Chatting to a friend and former colleague who now works for border force, he has been very candid about the good that money could do if invested in the existing agencies that manage immigration. I'd expect more from technocrats, but seems they can't technocrat very well, the mind boggles.
I heard on the News Agents podcast that the ‘Rwanda Plan’ involves sending tops 200 individuals a year.
Thats the current max Rwanda says they can take. I am sure if we bung them another 300 million or so we might get it up to 500.
However will need to subtract the at risk refugees sent the other way.
Morality & legality of it aside it seems a very odd and low impact change hill to die on?
It does seem to be a distraction tactic which has got out of hand. Was handy for Johnson since could be used to explain the total failure of their strategy by blaming the courts etc for blocking this tactic.
Now though the "five families" seem to have brought into the deception fully and so if he doesnt go for it they will launch their palace coup.
I'll laugh long and heartily if this is the hill that Rishi chooses to die on. Surely even the most ardent anti immigration supporter would agree that the Rwanda plan is complete nonsense.
I don't see how it could even work as a deterrent.
People Smuggler: Hey, I can get you to the UK for only $5000
Desperate Refugee: I've heard that they don't let you in and send you to Rwanda?
PS: Oh no, that's only for some people, doesn't affect you in your situation.
DR: Really?
PS: Yes, really. This way to the boat..
I mean, people smugglers aren't exactly the most conscientious of people are they?
Well, thank goodness the referendum finally stopped the squabbling within the Tory party and they are finally united and able to move on.
Oh.
The drama carries on into next year!
Bugger
he has been very candid about the good that money could do if invested in the existing agencies that manage immigration.
Well, exactly... if we want to protect our borders, surely the border force would be a good place to start, why are we paying 100's of millions to Rwanda, when we could employ more people in the UK to manage the situation in a faster and more fair way, and create some jobs at the same time?
molgrips
Free Member
I don’t see how it could even work as a deterrent
Yep, utter madness. For it to be a deterrent, Rwanda would have to be an awful prospect, worse than starving or dodging bullets in their own country.
Yet the government are saying Rwanda is amazeballs, so where is the deterrent?
It's all just expensive lunacy and all being done whilst the country burns.
Well, exactly… if we want to protect our borders, surely the border force would be a good place to start, why are we paying 100’s of millions to Rwanda, when we could employ more people in the UK to manage the situation in a faster and more fair way, and create some jobs at the same time?
Your guess is as good as mine, my mate is slightly befuddled by the whole debacle.
It is great example of the good ideas club running rampant, then arrogantly and bloody mindedly sticking to the plan.
Not really supprising I guess.
But just because a bunch of MP's say its safe, doesn't make it so, or even legal.
Next thing on the agenda will be - get rid of the jurisdiction of the ECHR, and the Human rights act, what could possibly go wrong?
The Tories are just disintegrating before our eyes.
There could genuinely be another Tory leader before the next GE. It's just incredible that this is even a prospect. Incredible.
The original sin, Brexit, will corrupt and pollute all that touch it. It was always going to tear the Tories and the country apart and it's not even close to being done with us yet.
And the Opposition is where...precisely??
And the Opposition is where…precisely??
And therein lies part of the problem. The Tories are in a position with the absence of any credible opposition where they could be shooting fish in a barrel, but it speaks to their incompetence they're ****ing that up.
There's a bitter irony with us criticising the US for the shiite candidates they have to choose from for president, when we don't seem to fare much better with our political parties.
Is there a party brakedown of votes available?
It would be interesting to see how many Labour MPs abstained or voted with the conservatives...
Rajiv Menon: "Was Lee Cain right when he said the gov's resistance in 2020 for free meals for children was a huge blunder? Was he right?"
Rishi Sunak: "I can't remember the decisions around that."
RM: "Are you saying it was somebody else who was opposed to funding this, rather than you, the Chancellor?"
RS: "I can't recall."
RM: "What was your view initially?"
RS: "I can't recall."
RM: "In June 2021, did you personally oppose free meals for children during the school holidays?"
RS: "I can't remember."
RM: "You told Hugo Keith that you didn't say: 'good working people pay for their children to eat and you don't want freeloaders.' Do you recall any meeting where anbody expressed the sentiment?"
RS: "No."
RM: "Can we agree, if anybody did, that that would be reprehensible thing to say?"
RS: "Support was in place to help the most vulnerable."
No Labour or any other party joined the tories in their hour of darkness, let's hope this gets sunk when it comes back.
Is there a party brakedown of votes available?
It would be interesting to see how many Labour MPs abstained or voted with the conservatives…
I managed to find this, which is to be expected I guess...
No Tory MPs vote against Rwanda Bill<br />There were, however, 38 Tories that are recorded not to have voted.
But what about Labour?
And the Opposition is where…precisely??
Starmer gave a speech this morning basically mocking them for indulging themselves in this ridiculous infightimg while the country burns and pointing out the fact that they've burned 300 million quid of taxpayers money for absolutely * all (I'm paraphrasing slightly). Yvette Cooper made mincemeat out of Cleverly as she has done with all of his predecessors (Cruella would do anything to avoid facing her over the despatch box, Patel just sat there with a face like a smacked arse as she was shredded by her)
It all got zero media coverage because the media are (understandably) focussed on the Tory party tearing itself apart instead.
But to quote Napoleon (again I'm paraphrasing) ... never interrupt your enemy while they're in the the process of a monumental * up
As an aside: the Tory right calling themselves 'The Five Families' to intone some form of New York Italian mafia menace and then they send forth as their spokesman .... Mark Francois
They really are utterly pathetic
But what about Labour?
Ah, it's ok.. I found this...
We really need a GE.. the conservatives are running roughshod, and this vote wil emboleden them even more... The are gonna put off a GE until the 11th hour, aren't they, gives them plenty of time to burn the house to the ground with the current majority.
The are gonna put off a GE until the 11th hour, aren’t they, gives them plenty of time to burn the house to the ground with the current majority.
Thankfully they're all far too buy scrapping with each other to actually do anything serious. Just look at them FFS! They're having a massive existential crisis over what? Sending a couple of hundred people to Africa? This will tie them up in knots until they're voted out. And this whole farce is entirely of their own making
I suppose we should all be thankful for that. Imagine the damage they'd do if they were focussed on doing what they usually do so well... ****ing us all over
In the meantime, we'll just shake our heads in bemusement as they carry on with this nonsense until they inevitably lose the next election
It was the guy who started Conservative Home who was on Five Live earlier saying that the longer this Rwanda nonsense goes on for, the more ridiculous they look, the more seats they lose.
Lets hope so
Is that from the Covid enquiry?
Sunak has a terrible memory it appears, he needs to see someone about that.