He didn’t say ” working class people” he said ” working people”
Ok whatever. I know loads of 'well off' working people and I can assure you that none of them can afford private health care or education. Most of them are trying to figure out how to cover the increase in their mortgages and how they're going to pay for their kids university living expenses (no the loans don't cover it) or childcare costs (that goes for me too before anyone asks).
I’d prioritise public services over tax breaks for well off “working people” every time.
Still interested in what 'well off' means. The cuts in NI benefited anyone earning between 12.5k and 50k per year. Is that what you mean? Even at the upper end no one I know earning 50k is sending their kids to private school or paying for private health care.
Yes, I think that earning 50k a year is "well off"... and if the Tories win and "reward" many of us with tax breaks, then the further deterioration of the NHS means you'd better bloody be choosing private health insurance... the number of family and friends (with lower than £50k income) that have had to resort to going private in the last few years is shocking... including life saving cancer treatment in two cases. If I had the means, I'd have health cover... despite hating the idea that anyone should need it at all. A tax break for me (and those earning much more than me) isn't going to fix the NHS. Choosing tax breaks over public services is bonkers right now. Pretending you can easily have both doesn't help with the immediate political choices ahead for the UK.
As toilets are all the the rage in the Tory party, this unrelated story amused me a little.
Women-only museum becomes a toilet to keep men out
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1wpegrnrxo
The UK proposals are all about sinks, aren't they? Not toilets. Your new facility can have as many shared use toilets as you want, with no unisex toilets at all... as long as people don't have to share sinks.
Yes, I think that earning 50k a year is “well off”
Me too but it's nowhere near enough to be paying for private healthcare (aside from emergency one-off elective procedures) and private education. Even the people on 100k+ who I know can't afford those.
Choosing tax breaks over public services is bonkers right now. Pretending you can easily have both doesn’t help with the immediate political choices ahead for the UK.
It's not an either/or though. Funny how we can have tax cuts and spend 10s of billions on arms but not tax cuts and a functioning NHS. And a couple of percent on national insurance or income tax isn't going to fix the NHS, the only thing that will do that is political will. All you're doing is falling into the tories trap of framing everything around whether we can afford it or not.
Here's an idea, how about we give everyone below the top tax rate a meaningful tax cut (or raise the thresholds to where they should be) and hike taxes for everyone on 100k+. I don't hear any centrist types calling for more tax for the rich, which is a bit odd as according to the 'we have no money' narrative we can't afford not to be taxing them more.
I agree it's political will how public money is spent but the message needs to be understood that it is not the government "finding the money" it's the government prioritising how it spends "our money".
We need to make people think of it in those terms to try and get them engaged in politics as a whole.
The next plan for Tory revival... 😉
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/sunak-pins-hopes-on-new-pandemic-20240503247500
I just subscribed to private healthcare through work, it soaked up about the same as one of the tax cuts. I did it because my daughter's not well and the NHS a) wasn't doing well for us and b) someone else needs it more than we do.
Clearly the labour party centrists have swallowed it (apart from spending money on weapons of course) and are going to allow it to prevent them from doing anything useful.
Dazh - did you pay NO ATTENTION to my earlier post at all?
Ok whatever. I know loads of ‘well off’ working people and I can assure you that none of them can afford private health care or education.
You obviously don't know loads of "well off working people" or your definition of well off is, 'well off'.
We put our kids through private education and have also paid for private health - we're still "working".
Anyway my prospective local MP is still tweeting how the locals were a great night for the Tory party
https://twitter.com/Johnny__Luk/status/1787471311289163853
you'd think from his tweet they'd done well
these are the results he's talking about
Im not sure whether its some elaborate tactic to make me give him a pity vote at the GE?
You obviously don’t know loads of “well off working people” or your definition of well off is, ‘well off’.
So you don't agree with Kelvin that 50k is 'well off'?
Anyway my point is that the tax cuts that have happened and are being proposed by the tories are not just cuts for the rich, although I have no doubt the tories would love to cut taxes for the very well off if they could get away with it. What I'm more interested in though is why supposed progressives like Binners and Kelvin (and other labour supporters) aren't supportive of tax cuts which would help a huge number of working people, especially when the money 'spent' on them won't do anything to improve public services if the political will to improve those services doesn't exist. Seems to me that's supporting the age old tory narrative of labour spending other peoples money.
And you seem to be "supporting" the "age old tory narrative" that people's lives will be made better by tax cuts.
In the next few years, the focus needs to be on improving the services that they and others either need or will need, and by running the country in a way that doesn't lead to a deeper and deeper gap between incomes and the cost of living.
And you seem to be “supporting” the “age old tory narrative” that people’s lives will be made better by tax cuts.
No the tory tax cut mantra is that people are better at spending their own money than the govt is. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the specific and desperately needed support people need right now to cope with the cost of living (and higher interest rates due to BoE incompetence) and tax cuts are the best way of achieving that. There's no reason a labour govt should be against lower taxes for working people. They should be addressing the inequality in tax between working people and the very rich.
and by running the country in a way that doesn’t lead to a deeper and deeper gap between incomes and the cost of living.
How does keeping taxes high reduce the gap between wages and the cost of living? Tax cuts are the most direct and impactful thing a govt can do to put money into the pockets of working people. As long as those tax cuts don't fuel inflation (they won't in this case) then there's very little downside.
So you don’t agree with Kelvin that 50k is ‘well off’?
I don't GAS what he said, I was replying to your post - but as usually you didn't respond.
And no, £50k isn't "well off" - in fact it's barely twice the Minimum/Living Wage.
And no, £50k isn’t “well off” – in fact it’s barely twice the Minimum/Living Wage.
Which supports my point that the tax cuts proposed by the tories are not a giveaway to the better off as Kelvin is arguing. I'd be the last person to support a tax cut for those who don't need one but that's not the case here. Anyway, given Reeves and Starmer are terrified of anything that might differentiate them from the tories I have no doubt that they will keep any tax cuts brought in by them so it's probably a moot point.
And I reckon 50k is well off BTW. It's not a huge amount by any means but I know many professionally qualified people who will never earn that much. It nicely illustrates the difference though between the expectations of the wealthy and the non-wealthy.
And I reckon 50k is well off BTW.
depends on context, it wont get you far if youre mortgage has been Trussed or youre paying off a lot of debt, likewise if you are the single earner of a family then its a very different proposition from being a single bloke with no commitments!
A reminder that most full-time workers in the UK earn less than £35k a year.
If you're on £50k, you're in the top 5% of all earners if you include full and part time workers. You are well off. If you think you're not, have a think about the other 95% of workers... and how failing services are effecting them even more than they do you. This country needs renewal, not right wing low taxation smaller government nonsense. Tax cuts need to wait. And when/if they do come, should be targeted at the bottom half of society first... and, to be clear, if you're on £50k a year... that's not you.
Anyway my prospective local MP is still tweeting how the locals were a great night for the Tory party
One of the Independents standing on an anti-LTN / anti-15 minute neighbourhoods platform (this was in London) did something similar, tweeting that the anti-LTN manifesto had increased its share of the vote by 50% from previously, an indication of how unpopular they were, blah blah.
The candidate had come dead last with about 2000 votes overall.
I’d prioritise public services over tax breaks for well off “working people” every time. Because the working class relying on those services and can’t afford the private provisions, like private health care and eduction, that those well off “working people” will spend their tax breaks on.
Private health care provision isn't expensive through a business. The small company I work for provides it for all staff if we want it and it costs us a small benefit in kind payment. It costs them a few hundred per person which they consider a small price to pay to minimise disruption and get us back to work quicker.
Private health care provision isn’t expensive through a business. The small company I work for provides it for all staff if we want it and it costs us a small benefit in kind payment. It costs them a few hundred per person which they consider a small price to pay to minimise disruption and get us back to work quicker.
Which is very true, but is not tne same as people being able to afford private treatment for themselves and their family themselves. I'm guessing it's not available to Tesco shelf stackers either.
Point of order: there is nothing to say you can't have targeted tax cuts at the lower income levels and public spending at the same time.
The Tories are obsessed with growth via tax cuts - yeah it doesn't work. But tax cuts for lower percentile earners would be a logical direction as lower earners spend a larger share of income on things that count rather than yachts (resource heavy) etc.
People need to grapple with the idea is that public services are miles behind and they need a huge swing in the other direction.
Labour will have had several years to wait and draw up a plan so let's not be looking for stalling excuses - no one really wants more flat-lining economic data.
But tax cuts for lower percentile earners would be a logical direction as lower earners spend a larger share of income on things that count rather than yachts (resource heavy) etc.
Absolutely. And you should also look at income for those that wouldn’t benefit from tax cuts. The current “Tory narrative” is tax cuts for those who think they’re “middle income” but are in fact higher earners, paired with attacks on those in receipt of need based benefits.
At least even the Conservatives have recognised that a half decent minimum wage level is needed. Still so far to go to help those on low or no income though. Plenty that can and should be done before aiming any tax cuts at anyone in the top half of earners.
Just looked in to see if there was anything new, interesting or relevant in recent posts.
There isn't so...back to campaigning, fundraising, data collection and all the other stuff required to make a Labour government a reality.
My MP is jenrick; Reform have confirmed their PPC in the constituency so...what will honest bob, poster boy for the right wing, do? Move towards the centre, lose right wing votes to Reform; move even further to the right, lose votes of 'moderate conservatives' (pinching Andy Street's description) to any of Lab/LDs/Greens//Independents.
The concern is that a fracturing of centrist support will allow jenrick to retain his seat.
@crazy-legs Apart from some odd results in Oxford, I don’t know of anyone who stood on an overt anti-LTN/anti-active travel platform and did well as a result.
@crazy-legs Apart from some odd results in Oxford, I don’t know of anyone who stood on an overt anti-LTN/anti-active travel platform and did well as a result.
Correct - someone added up all the votes for all the London candidates (including Susan Hall) who had "scrap ULEZ / remove LTNs" and so on in their manifesto and worked out that their combined total was about 100,000 votes less that Sadiq Khan received on his own.
It's consistently been shown at local elections that standing on an anti-ULEZ / anti-LTN platform is not a vote winner, in fact it's very much the opposite.
Which makes Sunak's "Plan for Drivers" even more daft. It's like he's literally throwing a net out at random for more votes, more popularity. Nope, that catch is dud, throw it back, we'll cast again. Come on, there must be some remaining gammon we can appeal to, where are they all?
Tories: constantly on the wrong side of the argument.
@crazy-legs Problem is that the opposition parties are also quite capable of being disappointing on active travel, when apparently every councillor’s surgery is full of people complaining about poor driving/traffic volumes…
Can I please ask the question again?
What do we think the chances are now that Tice will revert to type and stand down Reform candidates in Tory marginals before the GE?
Presumably in return for something vile in the Tory manifesto.
Tice will not stand candidates down - anywhere.
He won't stand them down. He knows that in the post election blood letting the remaining tories will be reform in all but name. He has very little to do to help that happen. Standing candidates down would be stupid
frankconway
Full Member
Tice will not stand candidates down – anywhere.
I do agree but I'm slightly concerned that Reforms London mayoral candidate said on a panel interview that he would have considered standing down if Halls team had held discussions with him after he initially contacted them.
That does concern me a little as Tice must have authorised him to to say that.
I'm hoping that was a aberration though.
That does concern me a little as Tice must have authorised him to to say that.
I wouldn't bank on that. I don't think party discipline is big in far-right circles. The only local council that UKIP ever controlled was Thanet and within months they lost control due to infighting and mega flounces.
A city in which 41% of its residents were born overseas was never going to be Reform UK territory they only managed to get 3% in the mayoral election, which even if it had all gone to Susan Hall she would still have not won.
So I'm not sure why their man thinks it's a point worth making.
What do we think the chances are now that Tice will revert to type and stand down Reform candidates in Tory marginals before the GE?
Presumably in return for something vile in the Tory manifesto.
Highly likely I think. Tice is not in charge - Farage is.
Whatever serves the future Lord Nigel of Brexitshire best...
What do we think the chances are now that Tice will revert to type and stand down Reform candidates in Tory marginals before the GE?
Presumably in return for something vile in the Tory manifesto.
It's still a possibility. But if you were Farage viewing the current collapse in Conservative support, would you want some manifesto input from a party that is going to be nowhere near power for the next five years, or would you see a devastated Tory party as ripe for a takeover and power grab?
There is a moment of opportunity for Tice and Farage, but only after an historic Conservative defeat.
There is a moment of opportunity for Tice and Farage
Farage has been quoted recently eyeing up the US instead. As a typical right wing "patriot" personal gain is always going to come first.
Farage is a grifter. He has zero interest in the tedious day-to-day business of party politics, as his disappearing act while an MEP showed.
He’s the living embodiment of the old adage ‘politics is show business for ugly people’.
The more the Tory party faithful want him, the less likely he is to want them. Why constrain himself?
He’ll just keep popping up on TV like the irritating gobshite he is and keep leading the Tory party around by the nose. He’s been their de facto leader since 2026 anyway as he basically sets their policy without having to own any responsibility for the consequences
It’s a lucrative win/win for him and not one he’s likely to want to change
Highly likely I think. Tice is not in charge – Farage is.
Nope, he's the Monkey not the Organ Grinder.
reform is a company not a political party and Farage is the major shareholder. whatever Farage wants to happen is what will happen. thats my understanding. Its to pressure the tories to go further right
Its to pressure the tories to go further right
it’s worked an absolute treat for him too, hasn’t it, he’s had them running scared for a decade now and they’re even more terrified of him now than they’ve ever been.
You could argue that the man-frog has been the most influential politician of the last 15 - 20 years and he’s never even been elected as an MP, never mind held high office
Anyway… PMQ’s should be good fun today, seeing as the little fella has been locked in his bedroom sulking since Friday
He’ll know that most of those behind him want him gone. They’d rather have Farage. What a damning indictment that is
reform is a company not a political party
The two are not mutually exclusive. It's set up like that to get around electoral rules about donating AFAIK. It may have started out as a pressure group, although I don't think they regard themselves as anything other than an independent political party. Given the self destruction the Tories are experiencing, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they end up with MP(s) in the GE.
Labour should throw her back - vile person.
"take the hint"
