I listened to a talk by Ian Marchant (ex head of SSE). One of the things he said would be the next challenge is storage. It's going to require a huge rethink. There is a figure for how much energy is currently stored in petrol tanks of private cars. It exceeds the rest of the uk energy storage capacity combined!
Lots of options are being looked at. Green hydrogen is an area of interest. Using renewables to produce it when production is high and then storing it. It fits nicely into current areas of technology but has limitations.
I was involved in the offshore renewables catapult briefly and a few industry groups. Someone higher up said that tidal was inefficient and small scale. It is, it was, as is wave. But so was wind. It's just that the money has been invested in wind. Look at where we were 10 years ago and compare to the Turbines going up at Dogger Bank and the difference is phenomenal in terms of scale and efficiency. There are some interesting projects going on in other renewable areas. Two I remember were and Orbital Marine Power. Mostly based in Wales and Ireland as there are huge tidal ranges in that area.
You've also got to remember that the UK is meteorologically diverse. Between Moray in the North and London Array in the south one could be calm and the other generating. This situation is getting better with farms all down the east coast. There are also plans for farms in the Celtic Sea.
There isn't one answer, you can pick holes in any one solution or idea. It isn't about everything being perfect but is about putting the pieces together to create a better system than the one we have now. It's an exciting industry to be involved in. Lots of ambition, lots of big engineering challenges, lots of opportunities.
By the time the 8 nuclear reactors ever get built (which I severely doubt they will)
Its not '8 nuclear reactors' its 'up to 8 nuclear reactors' - 'up to' can of course mean 'non'.
This is fascinating.
Very sincerely, thanks for the replies👍
This situation is getting better with farms all down the east coast. There are also plans for farms in the Celtic Sea.
And also around Iceland where a 10GW farm has been proposed.
What surprises me is the low transmission loss for high voltage DC which is reported to be around 3% per 1000km. This makes schemes like Iceland and Morocco very much viable options.
One of the interesting conumndrums with hydrogen storage is it's leak rate. Probably less of an issue in big storage chambers but for typical on storage it has a leak rate of about 1% a day! The molecules are tiny so they gradually just diffuse through the steel cylinders. Some of the ways of working with it are significantly different to natural gas so we've all got plenty of learning to do.
Long term we may end up with other options. There's a lot of work going into synthesising hydrocarbons out of atmospheric CO2. This uses energy clearly, but if you were to use renewable energy you could potentially use this as energy storage.
This thread so far has focused on energy production.
Yet it is so important to reduce consumption. The benefits of reduced bills for consumers, and less need to generate, distribute and store energy, are in tandem.
IMO, there needs to be a huge, and I mean huge, national effort to reduce heating (space and water) and cooling loads. No house should be left without improvements, let alone our offices, schools and more.
The reality is that wind on it’s own is not the answer.
Absolutely no one is saying it is. The next ten years will be all about storage.
Absolutely no one is saying it is. The next ten years will be all about storage.
And reduction or efficiency in use.
IMO, there needs to be a huge, and I mean huge, national effort to reduce heating (space and water) and cooling loads. No house should be left without improvements, let alone our offices, schools and more.
You are completely right. My gut feeling is that it is going to take more stick than carrot. Currently gas is around 25% of the cost per kWh of electricity. If it was 100% then people would begin to act much faster in terms of insulation and more efficient electric heating i.e. heat pumps. I think it is quite conceivable that the gap between electricity and gas narrows going in the future.
Just a small note on heat pumps. Air-to-water heat pumps are typically touted in the press as a gas boiler alternative. Install cost is around £10k+ efficiency around 300%
For many air-to-air heat pumps i.e. air conditioning units are much more suitable. A A+++ 4kw unit can be installed for around £1500. Efficincy is around 400% (higher because you are heating air to 20 odd degrees rather than water to 40 odd degrees).
Two such units could be sufficient for a well insulated house. You wouldn't need to remove the boiler so you can transition away from gas.
Finally, the good news in the budget that everyone seems to have missed. They are now eligible for VAT free status - previously it was just air to water systems.
“In 2020 the UK obtained 21.5% of its primary energy from low carbon sources, with 37% of
this from bioenergy, 31% from nuclear, and 18% from wind.”
This is a good point as those figures include heating and fuel in addition to electricity.
However, remember that ICE engines are ludicrously inefficient - only something like 20% of the energy goes into traction. Therefore the energy use will be 5x higher than electric cars. Likewise, the energy use for gas heating is 4x higher than a heat pump (see my post above).
So going forward total electricity consumption will be higher but total energy use is likely to be much lower as we transition to electric cars and heat pumps.
For many air-to-air heat pumps i.e. air conditioning units are much more suitable. A A+++ 4kw unit can be installed for around £1500.
Interesting - but wouldn't we need air ducts all around our house for that?
ICE engines are ludicrously inefficient – only something like 20% of the energy goes into traction
It's about 40% at best, now. But if you want to get technical, you also have to factor in that petrol and diesel are by products of crude oil refinement, so part of the cost of extraction and refining is met by the sale of other things. It's a fairly complex business. Of course the opposite is also true and if we weren't paying for petrol the price of refining other chemicals and fuels would go up....
Now I'm interested in air-to-air heat pumps. If anyone knows how domestic installations work and what can be done, DM me.
I'm wondering if the ducting can be used to circulate air within a house - the upstairs in ours is really hot in the summer but the downstairs stays cool. I don't need aircon in the summer, all I want is to be able to circulate the cooler air from downstairs to up. Likewise, in cooler but sunny weather the upstairs is fairly warm when the downstairs is still cold.
Now I’m interested in air-to-air heat pumps. If anyone knows how domestic installations work and what can be done, DM me.
Here is link to my recent experience:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6341294/help-sizing-an-air-to-air-heat-pump/p1
Our house is EPC rated C demi-detached - loft insulation, double glazing cavity wall installation. I reckon if we put a send unit in the lounge that would be sufficient to replace the gas heating for the house. You can either have a separate complete system or you could have a single outdoor unit that feeds multiple indoor units. It depends on bit on the external pipe runs as to which is the cheapest and most aesthetic. For us, it will be simplest to add a second unit with a back-to-back install to limit the pipe run.
Will electric cars become a mainstream method of local energy storage?
Where an electric car is plugged in and expected usage is a short 5 mile trip on weekdays, and full range use at the weekend, will we see the spare battery capacity being used to store and release power over the week with the car ensuring it tops up for its expected weekend trips?
The downside of course is additional wear and tear on the battery but you'd like to think there would be a small financial incentive for import and export through your smart meter, although ideally the car would charge during low demand/high supply and then release power for your own household when demand rises/supply falls.
Will electric cars become a mainstream method of local energy storage?
Very much so. It is known as vehicle-to-grid. There have been a number of trials in the UK mainly with Nissan Leaf's which support it. The life of batteries is determined by a number of factors:
- Physical age
- Number of cycles
- Battery management (depth of discharge, preventing over charging, temperature control etc.)
It is becoming apparent that the third factor is likely to be at least as important as the other two. So the additional wear and tear is likely to be of only minor significance to its life.
