There are other comics about cats if that's more to your liking?
So, you still don't get that it is not the subject matter which Is the issue? Never mind. Next time pay more attention.
Westboro Baptist Church.
But the Westboro Baptist Church are a group of a few seriously misguided individuals whose beliefs would be unrecognisable to any other christians. They are not even an extreme, they are not part of the same continuum. Nevertheless they get cited as an example of religious extremes, no other groups are even similar. It's no use citing outliers as examples
But the Westboro Baptist Church are a group of a few seriously misguided individuals whose beliefs would be unrecognisable to any other christians
I'd say that their core belief (that homosexuality is an abhorrent sin because their god says so) is shared by many American conservative Christians. Rick Santorum compared homosexuality to bestiality and paedophilia, Michele Bachmann said being gay is "personal bondage, personal despair and personal enslavement", and many Republicans are still promoting the Defence of Marriage act (banning same sex marriage, which was actually signed into law by Bill Clinton) and want to repeal the recent lifting of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell', allowing soldiers who happen to be gay not to have to hide their sexuality.
Where they differ is their method of expressing their displeasure, which is more extreme than most.
STW has really gone downhill, some of you boys are proper weird 😯
STW has really gone downhill, some of you boys are proper weird
Just the boys? 🙁
I'd say that their core belief (that homosexuality is an abhorrent sin because their god says so) is shared by many American conservative Christians
So you don't think they are extremists?
They are not even an extreme, they are not part of the same continuum. Nevertheless they get cited as an example of religious extremes, no other groups are even similar. It's no use citing outliers as examples
If they aren't part of the same continuum, how can they be outliers?
Don't worry Mrs T, I think you're weird in the nicest possible way of course 😉
Most religious people seem to want to interfere with me and my gf's life. so I don't think they are extreme.
"STW has really gone downhill, some of you boys are proper weird"
For me that is STW's USP
Westboro baptists are the extreme end of a spectrum. Many Christians consider homosexuality to be wrong hence the furore over gay priests
If they aren't part of the same continuum, how can they be outliers?
By deviating greatly from other christians. What? Is this going to turn into a discussion about statistical definitions?
Most religious people seem to want to interfere with me and my gf's life. so I don't think they are extreme.
Isn't that a selective sample? There may be lots of christians who don't have any issue with yours and your gf's lives and so you never encounter them
If they are "outliers" wrt christian beliefs then they are christians. Granted christians with extreme views but christians nonetheless.
...a few seriously misguided individuals whose beliefs would be unrecognisable to any other christians
By the way, that's dangerously close to the one true scotsman logical fallacy.
Emsz, maybe they are just curious 😉
So you don't think they are extremists?
Whether they're extremists or not is irrelevant, the point being made here is that your assertion that no-one hold the beliefs mentioned in the cartoon is erroneous. Clearly they do, are we gaining anything by arguing over what to call them?
If we say instead that the cartoon is satirising extremist religious beliefs (which it ostensibly is, it's not targeting religion, it's targeting intolerance), does that mean we can all agree and have a big group hug?
I'm not sure we can, I don't think even Westboro believe that the eating of the fruit was the bad thing
There may be lots of christians who don't have any issue with yours and your gf's lives and so you never encounter them
Sam, listen to yourself, you are now admitting that some people do actually hold these beliefs, but that they are wrong and there are lots of nice religionists who are entirely tolerant.
WHICH. IS. THE. ENTIRE. POINT. OF. THE. COMIC!
Those people. The ones with the extreme or intolerant views. Those are the ones that "suck at religion". Y'see?
If they are "outliers" wrt christian beliefs then they are christians. Granted christians with extreme views but christians nonetheless.
but everyone holds some beliefs which Christians hold, does that make us all Christians?
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Sam, listen to yourself, you are now admitting that some people do actually hold these beliefs
Which beliefs in particular are you referring to?
Sam is right. I'd assert that, in this and many other countries, the percentage of people holding religious beliefs who find homosexuality abhorrent doesn't differ much from the percentage of non believers holding the same views.
To denigrate the intersection of religious + gay bashers, for example, by mocking all believers does no-one any favours.
It seems to me that the irony here is that stw is constrained by the narrowmindness it says it sees in others. 🙂
Most religious people seem to want to interfere with me and my gf's life. so I don't think they are extreme.
No they don't. Maybe one or two that you've spoken to, that's all. There's millions who've made no judgement, applaud you, or don't really give a ****.
🙂
Most religious people seem to want to interfere with me and my gf's life.
Most? It might seem like most, but you don't know about the millions of Christians who don't care either way.
[b][i]Most religious people seem to want to interfere with me and my gf's life. so I don't think they are extreme[/i][/b].
No they don't. Maybe one or two that you've spoken to, that's all. There's millions who've made no judgement, applaud you, or don't really give a ****.
They may not share your orientation and prefer to remain tight lipped
So, you still don't get that it is not the subject matter which Is the issue? Never mind. Next time pay more attention.
You just struck me as a cat person.
I haven't met them all obviously 😛 , the ones I've met, or have come to my door to early on Sunday seem have an issue with it.
I'll bet money if you like that the ones I've met aren't that extreme.(in their views of gays)
As G says the comic's about intolerence, not really about definitions
Which beliefs in particular are you referring to?
The ones that are berated in the comic.
I'd assert that, in this and many other countries, the percentage of people holding religious beliefs who find homosexuality abhorrent doesn't differ much from the percentage of non believers holding the same views
I'd assert you're wrong. But I'd be interested in your figures...
Either way it doesn't really change the thrust of the satire. Of course, atheists can be intolerant, judgemental and have hang ups about sex, but that's not because they "suck at religion" - it's just because they suck.
They may not share your orientation and prefer to remain [b]tight lipped [/b]
*s*****
But seriously, what's the concern if they don't share Emz' orientation? I don't share it, and I have no problem with her getting married to her girlfriend, and don't expect her to hide her relationship away. Just as I wouldn't expect her to be all frowny and disappointed because a straight person was in a relationship with or wanted to marry their partner.
But seriously, what's the concern if they don't share Emz' orientation? I don't share it, and I have no problem with her getting married to her girlfriend, and don't expect her to hide her relationship away.
and in that respect, you are like many Christians
I don't think even Westboro believe that the eating of the fruit was the bad thing
Ok, I'll bite, because it seems to be important to you. Tell me about the apple.
My understanding of the story is that mankind ate the apple (which probably wasn't an apple at all but a fig or something IIRC), gained "knowledge" and became self aware in a Skynet sort of way.
Catholicism takes this a step further with original sin; what makes us human rather than godly is Adam & Eve's disobedience of god.
Whether this was a good or bad thing overall is probably a much longer discussion; I'm not convinced that a species doomed to (mostly) think for themselves is all that terrible an outcome. Regardless, it doesn't seem to be a huge leap to summarise this with 'people ate fruit, which was bad' as a throwaway comment in a humorous story. In the grand scheme of things it does seem to be a minor point, and given that it's mentioned in the same sentence as zombie Jesus I don't think it's intended to be a wholly serious critique.
The ones that are berated in the comic
Well, some are commonly held, others such as the fruit one i refered to, are not.
I haven't met them all obviously , the ones I've met, or have come to my door to early on Sunday seem have an issue with it.
A lot of people you meet are probably religious, but don't say anything about it so you never find out.
I'd assert that, in this and many other countries, the percentage of people holding religious beliefs who find homosexuality abhorrent doesn't differ much from the percentage of non believers holding the same views.
I'd like to see the data upon which you base this assertion.
To denigrate the intersection of religious + gay bashers, for example, by mocking all believers does no-one any favours.
Which is not what the original cartoon does by the way so is a strawman argument.
Maybe one or two that you've spoken to, that's all.
Seriously!! Did you actually read that before pressing post? Seldom have I read anything so patronising. I'm surprised you didn't end it with "my dear".
Ok, I'll bite, because it seems to be important to you
oh no, not at all. it was just an example
To denigrate the intersection of religious + gay bashers, for example, by mocking all believers does no-one any favours.
Sure. Who's doing that? *looks around*
As GrahamS (I think) said: it's not religion (generally or specifically) that's being mocked; it's the views of those people, and only those people, who use religion as an excuse for prejudice and hate. The cartoon [i]very specifically[/i] makes this clear.
Which is not what the original cartoon does by the way so is a strawman argument.
No, but it does seem to be the most commonly presented view on STW.
Hi! Just clocking in, a bit late. Did I miss anything? 😀
*ducks*
others such as the fruit one i refered to, are not.
If you read the comic you'll see that the character saying "a naked couple ate some fruit which was bad" is one of those people that "suck at religion".
If he has summarised the Garden of Eden story incorrectly then all the better - not only does he mock other religions for believing crazy things, he hasn't even got his own "crazy s..t" correct.
Likewise I don't think the Christian church officially recognises the terms "zombie" or "magic no-touchy sex" - so he's wrong there too 🙄
oh no, not at all. it was just an example
Fair enough. You'd mentioned it a couple of times, is all.
How did I do, incidentally? Anywhere near the mark?
well, see the thing is that prior to eating the fruit Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, to the extent that even disobeying God could not have been good or bad. so, eating the apple was not a bad thing, because there was no such thing as a bad thing.
I daresay that the "Church of England's" mealy-mouthed, thin lipped prevarication over women bishops and gay marriages is preferable to the Westboro Baptossers shouty demonstration hate stuff in the eyes of some.
It's still moronic and stupid, though, and no less weird for all it's typically English hypocrisy.
I daresay that the "Church of England's" mealy-mouthed, thin lipped prevarication over women bishops and gay marriages is preferable to the Westboro Baptossers shouty demonstration hate stuff in the eyes of some.
How did they prevaricate?
Which is not what the original cartoon does by the way so is a strawman argument.
Precisely, so why is the tone of this thread trending to anti christian, and the denigration of their beliefs, rather than anti (bigoted christians)?
I'd like to see the data upon which you base this assertion.
Data? You're on the wrong noticeboard. 🙂
I did think before putting that up, but my reasoning was that there's a lot of countries where the prejudice is culturally informed, rather than religious, and there's a lot of adherents of religions (specially eastern ones) which don't make prescriptive judgement on people, or have 'right and wrong' lists of rules.
There's still a fair bit of anti-gay feeling in this country, and judging by Friday nights in the pub, a fair bit of politically correct behaviour which doesn't extend far from the work place.
well, see the thing is that prior to eating the fruit Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, to the extent that even disobeying God could not have been good or bad. so, eating the apple was not a bad thing, because there was no such thing as a bad thing.
Surely something that has bad consequences would be termed a bad thing? The absence of a pre-judgement on something does not mean it can't be bad.
The link was funny - job done
🙂
Precisely, so why is the tone of this thread trending to anti christian, and the denigration of their beliefs, rather than anti (bigoted christians)?
Where?
We've got someone popping up saying [i]"[s]no one actually thinks like that[/s] sensible Christians don't think like that"[/i] and the rest of us saying [i]"we know - that's what the comic is about: the non-sensible ones"[/i].
Not sure why all the focus is on Christianity either - since the comic is about general "religion" fuelled-beliefs and clearly identifies some other religions as well.
Surely something that has bad consequences would be termed a bad thing? The absence of a pre-judgement on something does not mean it can't be bad.
but they were in no position to know that what they did was wrong. In he same way a 1 year old flipping food out of their palte wouldn't know that was bad.
Not sure why all the focus is on Christianity either - since the comic is about general "religion" fuelled-beliefs and clearly identifies some other religions as well.
well, there are a few jesus / beardy god references in there
