[Closed] Racism

nealglover - Member
Regarding : "Black Bobs House"

Pointless possibly, but not racist.

(that doesn't mean the people who used that term weren't racist, just that the description itself isn't.)

I will put you down as a don't know so 2 for racist and one don't know?

That's two for "stupid question" and one for "stupid question, but let me explain..."

Wot he said

I can't believe all the negativity on this thread.
Yes, isolated racist incidents happened. But they are not more common than anywhere else. The piss-poor BBC documentary is very misleading and caused considerable grief and disgust in Poland.
I am Polish living in UK and have been a subject to racist insults, got the windscreen of my car smashed, eggs thrown at my windows because I am Polish and allegedly take the jobs away from good British people (I don't I am a PhD student). So should I advocate that Olympics should not be happening in London? That's ridiculous.
Marcin

It's easy not being racist in countries where racism is disapproved of by the majority and tolerance is the norm. Now visit anywhere in North Africa as an independant traveller where streetwise = racist = safety. I think some people on this thread might realise they are perfectly capable of being racist when the circumstances demand it.

Yes, isolated racist incidents happened. But they are not more common than anywhere else

Yeah sorry Marcin, I should have added to my post that I was in Krakow recently, and I saw no signs whatsoever of overt racism. I was referring only to the football-based racism, and I don't for a minute imagine that's representative of most fans, and certainly not of the general population of Poland. Apologies.

Travelled across north Africa about 10 years ago and tbh I am not sure what you mean - not attacking you whatever you think.
I have spoken to people about their behaviour and been really really rude to them and threatening [ insulting their mum gets their attention IME] but never felt the need or urge to be racist.

I think some people on this thread might realise they are perfectly capable of being racist when the circumstances demand it.

I travel the world for work. I go to all manner of places where racism is the "norm". Russia and China as a couple of examples in recent months.

Just because it's the "norm" there, doesn't mean I have to or will stoop to such a low level as to be a racist.

marcinski - Member

That's me he's talking about. 16 times a month though.

zimbo - Member

Yes, isolated racist incidents happened. But they are not more common than anywhere else

Yeah sorry Marcin, I should have added to my post that I was in Krakow recently, and I saw no signs whatsoever of overt racism. I was referring only to the football-based racism, and I don't for a minute imagine that's representative of most fans, and certainly not of the general population of Poland. Apologies.

This site is for the Po faced Liberal middle class

Oh dear. Do you have any idea how wrong you are?

that is true flashy is many things but LIBERAL - yee gods he hates how those ****ers are watering down the tories 😉
and middle class how very dare you belittle him like that. 😀

I love you, Junky. You know that, don't you?

😉

[b]SD-253[/b]

Nice try mate. Finding that chip on your shoulder a bit heavy?

Go on, you've got an axe to grind. Tell us what you think.

Opps look whose bottled out? What is the difference in your words/behaviour and that of a racist?

Have you been eating too much cheese? WTF are you talking about? Your racist delusions are addling your brain, son.

Bullsh*t ernie. What's wrong with "shop"??

Because **** shop is something specific, ie, it's a shop which sells everything, including shoelaces - which is more than poxy Waitrose does, and it's open very late. Yes, people use it between themselves without a shred of racist intent. But no, you wouldn't use it when talking to an asian shop owner as it would be seen as impolite - it's not rocket science, just commonsense.

Likewise I probably wouldn't refer to someone as being "as bent as a nine bob note" when talking to a gay person, because they might feel insulted, despite the fact that I'm not in the least homophobic. Similarly I have never used the term 'carpet muncher' when talking to my lesbian sister, because I don't want to offend her, but it's a term which I otherwise freely use.

Of course if you or JY were to use the term **** then that would be completely unacceptable, because you both very clearly see it as a racist insult, whatever the circumstances. But it can be used without any racist intent, as it was famously in the film East is East when the young boy comes running announcing "the ****s are coming", despite the fact that his father is ****stani.

Some people just speak like that, it doesn't make them racists. And calling them racists really doesn't help. Although I don't expect you to agree of course.

I agree ernie you can use coarse and vulgar and racist language without being any of these things...I am not sure why anyone would choose to but you could.

I note even you would not use the terms to someone who you refer to by those terms....if only you could be polite about them when they cannot hear you but its your choice.

I remember leaving the North and the term love is used by everyone to everyone. It took me some time to stop saying it to female strangers as it was not taken in the way it was meant. I managed to adapt as I was not a sexist and did not want to be viewed as one. I see little way in which **** or carpet muncher can be interpreted as anything other than derogatry terms and I would not want to use them.

ernie_lynch - Member
If a Pole starts whingeing to me about black people then it is highly likely that I will tell them to * off back to Poland. Makes sense after all, doesn't it ?

Really?
First, and more important than what follows, fair play for standing up to it.
But what would you say to a "native" racist? and why respond differently to a Polish racist?

I'm also surprised you chose to use Eastern Europeans in construction as a example. IME (London construction), they suffer far more racist abuse in this country than other groups. And not just talk and attitude but actual discrimination that causes their lives to be harder than they would be otherwise.
Really sh1te jobs on site are solved with "[i]Get an '[b]Ian[/b] on it.[/i]" - Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Albanian, Ukrainian, Pole. Doesn't matter where they come from, "They're all the same" is a common attitude.
And if they object they get told: "If you don't like it, * off back to Poland?"
So the chances are, they've heard your quip before. Could that be reinforcing racism?

Going on to your "**** point". You're right there. In two years on site in Stratford, I heard it on a daily basis. Between three ****stani lads from Newham as a term of endearment. It's as if its been "reclaimed", a little like N in America. If you got on with them they'd call you **** too. A little weird at first to a suburban white boy, but it takes all the aggression out of the term.

When Australia beat ****stan in 1990 I was surprised that the sports headline was "we bash the ****s."
Seems it's just an abbreviation in Australia.
My friend always calls it going down the 'Stani's when referring to the local shop. To be honest it's a foregone conclusion that any corner shop will be run by Asians.
From what I can see of this thread no one is saying racism is a good thing , yet we still seem to be able to have a good barney whilst not actually disagreeing.

It was only 1988 when I went to a Wolves match and the home fans all chanted 'Bruno' when Floyd Wright took to the pitch.... not exactly champions of the cause here

Junkyard - Member

I agree ernie you can use coarse and vulgar and racist language without being any of these things...I am not sure why anyone would choose to but you could.

I note even you would not use the terms to someone who you refer to by those terms....if only you could be polite about them when they cannot hear you but its your choice.

I remember leaving the North and the term love is used by everyone to everyone. It took me some time to stop saying it to female strangers as it was not taken in the way it was meant. I managed to adapt as I was not a sexist and did not want to be viewed as one. I see little way in which **** or carpet muncher can be interpreted as anything other than derogatry terms and I would not want to use them.

Well that's where we differ JY. I would say something along the lines of [i]"that guy over there next to the fat bastard",[/i] but I wouldn't dream of calling the bloke a fat bastard to his face, not necessarily because I might get a smack in the teeth, but because to do so would be clearly very rude.

I've got to say JK, you must be a nightmare to hold a conversation with in real life, if you pull people up or get offended so easily by the innocent use of words. Talking to you must be like walking on eggshells 😐

IME (London construction), they suffer far more racist abuse in this country than other groups.

Hahaha, what a load of bollox. Racism is pretty much non-existent on London building sites. It would be total chaos if there was.

I've read all 5 pages of this post and have a few questions.

@zimbo, you went to Krakov and didn't see any racism. Can I ask what colour your skin is?

@earnie
What if there's more than one '****' shop, how do you further distinguish?

If your local shop was owned by an african/west Indian would you say **** shop?

But offence is taken when a foreigner (of the same race as you) Caucasian I'm guessing, refers to black people as monkeys. Maybe like you he was using the term 'monkeys' as a descriptive term.

If your local shop was owned by an african/west Indian would you say **** shop?

No I wouldn't. Does that surprise you then ?

I never use the word **** under any circumstances. It is pretty much always used with racist intent by some white people.

I'm starting to think that either I live on another planet to some of the people on this thread, or they want to play silly bollox by pretending that they don't understand commonsense.

I will put you down as a don't know so 2 for racist and one don't know?

🙄 was my answer not clear enough for you ?

Not sure I could have made it any clearer.

However ......

zimbo -
That's two for "stupid question" and one for [b]"stupid question, but let me explain..."[/b]

What Zimbo said.

If that's clear enough for you ?

the only difference between "us" and "you" is we dont use the offensive terms even when the people are not there.
None of us do when they are.

You talking to me JY ?.......who's "us" and "you" ?

Why is it ok for you to use the term **** when speaking to fellow whites, but not ok for someone else to use the term monkey when speaking to you?maybe he sees it as harmlees as you see the term ****

But that question has already been answered. OK, I'm guessing that you don't like the answer, but what exactly is the point of asking the same question again ? Do you think that if you keep asking the question you will eventually get an answer that you actually like ? I don't.....because you are going to get the same answer and you clearly don't like that answer.

The term **** shop is used many people in a complete non-derogatory way with no intended racism. You might not like that, but that's the way it is.

Terms such as ****, coon, jungle bunny, golliwog, etc, are highly offensive, and are used as insults by racists precisely because they are so offensive.

Someone who uses the term **** shop is not necessarily racist, someone who uses those other words is.

And there ends your lesson for today in colloquial english. I hope you go away having learnt something. Although I can see that it is terribly complicated for you.

On the subject of ****... I'm probably a bit behind the times and didn't realise it'd lost its venom in some circles, til a mate said "I'm just nipping to the **** shop" Now a, he's not a racist, and he'd be offended if you said he was, but b, the "**** shop" in question here was owned and run by an irish protestant. But to Stu, it's still a **** shop regardless.

When Australia beat ****stan in 1990 I was surprised that the sports headline was "we bash the ****s."
Seems it's just an abbreviation in Australia.

My mate (born in ****stan, lived in the US, then went home to start a tech company) views **** as a shortening of ****stani and until 9/11 when people started using it as a term of abuse he never knew it could be anything other than that. Even since then, he is only bothered by use of it when it's INTENDED as an insult.

[ insulting their mum gets their attention IME]

So, Junkyard, you knew a particular racial group is very offended when you insult their mum and used that insult against them. If we define racism as descrimination or insult based on racial characteristics you know what you are.

Given that the people you racially insulted were no doubt trying to rob you/forcefully sell you something/get money out of you by some other means because you were white then I suppose you were just countering racism with racism.

@zimbo, you went to Krakov and didn't see any racism. Can I ask what colour your skin is?

So, Junkyard, you knew a particular racial group is very offended when you insult their mum and used that insult against them

Understanding a culture is not racism. Believing in the superiority of your race over another is racism.

I've experienced racism first hand at the Notting Hill Carnival when the Nation of Islam float wouldn't give me one of the leaflets they were handing out to anyone who didn't have white skin, and I watched them get angrier when I happily tried putting a donation in their coffers. It really boiled their racist piss.

I'm starting to think that either I live on another planet to some of the people on this thread, or they want to play silly bollox by pretending that they don't understand commonsense

Has someone been swapping ernie's Morning Star for the Daily Mail?

there shouldn't be anything more sinister about the word **** than there is with the word aussie, if it is used to describe people from ****stan.

but it isn't is it ? it's used as a generic term for anyone with brown skin that looks like they're from asia - indians, iraqis, sri lankans.

i lived amongst sikh and hindu communities in birmingham and i can guarantee anyone that the word **** was considered offensive and racist.

so i don't use it.

ernie:

Similarly I have never used the term 'carpet muncher' when talking to my lesbian sister, because I don't want to offend her, but it's a term which I otherwise freely use.

Of course if you or JY were to use the term **** then that would be completely unacceptable, because you both very clearly see it as a racist insult, whatever the circumstances.

So, racism baaaad, sexism gooood, eh?

When I moved to London and first started working with black people I was surprised to learn that the caribbeans didn't like the Africans ( due to the Africans selling them to the slavers apparently).
Also the hierarchy that existed due to skin tone. (lightest at the top)
There were adverts on the radio for skin lightening creams.

Terms such as ****, coon, jungle bunny, golliwog, etc, are highly offensive, and are used as insults by racists precisely because they are so offensive.

But maybe this Poiish guy was using the term 'monkey' in a non-racist way and he wasn't aware that it is offensive. I find it strange, but i also find it strange that you think **** isn't offensive, even if followed by the word 'shop'. I wasn'l looking for an answer i liked, i just wasn't clear. I mean the answer is clearly 'yes'. I just found it hard to believe.

I suppose this is aimed at ernie but I'm also making a general point. I physically flinch whenever I hear someone use the term **** or **** shop or going down the chinkys. Not because I'm a sensitive flower but because the terms are abhorrent - they are no longer acceptable, on a building site or anywhere else. I'm a quarter Chinese and have worked in loads of crappy jobs but wouldn't expect to hear phrases like that bandied about by either friends or colleagues.

zimbo - Member
Yeah sorry Marcin, I should have added to my post that I was in Krakow recently, and I saw no signs whatsoever of overt racism. I was referring only to the football-based racism, and I don't for a minute imagine that's representative of most fans, and certainly not of the general population of Poland. Apologies.

Glitchaki

til a mate said "I'm just nipping to the **** shop" Now a, he's not a racist, and he'd be offended if you said he was, but b, the "**** shop" in question here was owned and run by an irish protestant. But to Stu, it's still a **** shop regardless.

I can well believe that, as for many people it describes a type of shop rather than provide an accurate statement of the shopkeeper, it's replaced the term corner shop which was often used even if the shop wasn't on a corner. I don't know of any late opening convenience stores which are white owned so haven't experienced that anomaly.

It reminds how many years ago when I first started working on building sites and the overwhelming majority of groundworkers were Irish, it was perfectly normal and acceptable to call a groundworker a "paddy", even if they weren't actually Irish, or even vaguely Irish.

It might be worth pointing out that imo using the word **** in a general sense is quite different to using it in the context of a shop, and all my points refer to it in that context of a shop. Saying "I'm popping down to the **** shop" is quite different to saying "this **** gave me a parking ticket". It all depends on intent and what the speaker wants to imply. Such subtleties might seem terribly complicated but the whole issue is greatly helped if liberal quantities of commonsense is applied.

BTW I think that falsely accusing people of racism based on the way they speak is not only unjust but can also be hugely damaging and counterproductive. Because it's not just a case that people get pissed off as a result of being lectured by sanctimonious Guardian readers concerning what words they can use and what words they can't use, but because it also plays right into the hands of racist organisations such as the BNP.

The BNP vehemently and absurdly denies that they are racists. And a surprising amount of people accept this truly absurd claim by the BNP. The fact that the PC brigade goes around accusing people willy nilly of being racist undoubtedly contributes to this misconception about the BNP. People think "I've been accused of being racist but I'm not, I don't believe them when they say the BNP is really racist".

Racism is a very real issue which needs to be seriously tackled, looking for it where it doesn't exist helps no one other than racists.