I just found it suprising how much negativity there is surrounding Euro cup. I would have thought that after John Terry's scandal, BBC and British public would be less accusing towards others
I agree. I argued with a guy at work that that film could have been made in lots of countries. I mean, look at the BNP here. Those pr*cks don't speak for England, as I'm sure the pr*cks in the BBC film don't speak for Poland or the Ukraine. The hypocrisy is a bit sickening, particularly given the Terry affair. But let's hope the Euros help in driving any latent or patent racism out of any country they're held in.
Because it's not just a case that people get pissed off as a result of being lectured by sanctimonious Guardian readers concerning what words they can use and what words they can't use
A lot of the people I know who visit the "**** shop" also quite often refer to the "**** in the woodpile". In a carefree, non-racist way of course (?). How does that figure in the lynchinctionary?
lynchinctionary
The language and words I am referring to, is spoken by, and their definition understood by, a huge quantity of people numbering in the millions. They are not words which I have personally invented or personally defined. Despite your obvious attempt to personalise the issue.
I'm getting slightly bored arguing with daft herberts now, so I think I'll probably leave you to get on with congratulating each other on how well you speak and how terribly politically correct you all are.
🙂
They are not words which I have personally invented
I know. I'm asking how you interpret that phrase; do you find it acceptable or not? The zimboictionary says it's a "no".
We white Anglo-Saxons are the only people in the world with a collective guilt about racism; everywhere else in the world racism is alive and kicking. Black Africans dislike anybody not from their own tribe, religion or country and certainly anybody Chinese or Indian. You should have seen the faces on the staff when I took some African visitors into a ****stani restaurant in Manchester last Friday; they scowled and stared at us and we'd have walked out if we hadn't been so hungry. Arabs and Turks against Kurds, Serbs against just about anybody, Afghans against Hazaras, Chinese against Tibetans, you name it, every country, group or race hates somebody else irrationally.
So why do we beat ourselves up about it? I'm not condoning racism, I'm simply asking why we have such a bad conscience about it while the rest of the world carries on blithely.
So why do we beat ourselves up about it?
Because it's wrong? We have to make decisions about how we behave in society and to most people, racism needs to be outlawed. I don't really think the rest of the world "carries on blithely", but I'd agree that it isn't maybe as high up the agenda as it is here. And some of those examples you quote may be politically based, rather than out and out racism.
So why do we beat ourselves up about it? I'm not condoning racism, I'm simply asking why we have such a bad conscience about it while the rest of the world carries on blithely.
Well someone's got to set a benchmark for the foreigners to look up too.
BTW I think that falsely accusing people of racism based on the way they speak is not only unjust but can also be hugely damaging and counterproductive.
You mean like using the word 'monkeys'?
Is it racist to object to racist east European migrants settling in the UK?
You mean like using the word 'monkeys'?
The word monkey was used in a derogatory context to criticise and imply racial ridicule, it doesn't in anyway compared with saying "there's a really good **** shop round the corner that even does takeaway tea", which is very clearly not designed to be derogatory, criticise, or imply racial ridicule.
I can see that it is all a tad too complicated for you to understand SamCooke, but you just keep asking the same question over, and over, and over again, I find your daftness mildly amusing.
Is it racist to object to racist east European migrants settling in the UK?
That's one for Radio 4's Moral Maze. Us plebs on here will never get to the bottom of that!
Just a thought, you're not carpet-muncher yourself, are you, ernie?
So, Junkyard, you knew a particular racial group is very offended when you insult their mum and used that insult against them.
I have no idea what racial group they identified themseleves with- is their some that dont mind you insulting their mum?
If we define racism as descrimination or insult based on racial characteristics you know what you are.
We would need to establish that it is a racial characteristics to be offended when someone insults your mother - have we? Given they were a different colour from me it would not be hard to come up with some racial insult as you yourself managed. As i avoided this I fail to see why mine was racist.
Given that the people you racially insulted were no doubt trying to rob you/forcefully sell you something/get money out of you by some other means because you were white then I suppose you were just countering racism with racism.
When they were trying to get money out of me it was because i was richer than them rather than my skin colour ...they did the exact same thing to the black people I was with.
As for calling this racism it is both desperate and pathetic as an argument not least because I managed to offend them without mentioning their race unlike you.
as for **** what TM and the dictionary says
Pak·i (pk)
n. pl. Pak·is Chiefly British Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a person of ****stani or South Asian birth or descent.
[Short for ****stani.]
Saying "I'm popping down to the **** shop" is quite different to saying "this **** gave me a parking ticket". It all depends on intent and what the speaker wants to imply. Such subtleties might seem terribly complicated but the whole issue is greatly helped if liberal quantities of commonsense is applied.
its not complicated the term **** is not needed and the meaning is offensive -it why you wont use it to their face some would call this hypocrisy but i am sure you have a "common sense" reason for this. I also hope you would not challenge the second example lest you also manage to fuel the misconception that the BNP are not racist which is off course without doubt the fault of guardian readers everywhere. 🙄
You may use the word **** as you wish but you have what it means , in this country, and it is an offensive term and not just a shortening of a word. In the context of going to the shop the word **** is superfluous so why bother doing it?
I dont understand why ernie thinks that using a derogatory term for an asian is not racist but anyone who uses a derogatory word for a black person is racist. It is even less clear why this is the fault of guardian readers who lead to the rise of the BNP being perceived as non racist.
Once more your dislike of the liberal left has reduced your [ usually superb and well reasoned] argument to an absurdity.
I do agree that people can use words and not be a racist but I struggle to see why you would use derogatory words for races if you are not a racist. Conversely the BNP is very careful to avoid using the terms as it would make it easier to prove they were racist rather than nationalistic. I suspect that is also the fault of the guardianistas that even the BNP know some words are racist and best to avoid them lest they make it obvious they are racist rather than retain the façade that they are nationalistic.
Well said Ian, as a Engilsh '****', I'd like to think we are and that's why we make it such a big issue.
So Earnie gets pissed off when a Polish guy calls black people monkeys by has no qualms calling people ****s, Chinks, Carpet Lickers or whatever else but not to thier faces as that's rude. So there's no difference is there? Why don't do go round to the shop and tell them they're such good ****s for offering take away tea.
The polish guy was speaking white man to white man, I doubt he'd call a black person a monkey to thier face, bit like you. Heres a suggestion, why not just learn the shops name? But I suppose that takes too much effort.
Failing that, I've always found that putting 'no offence' at the end of one of these terms nullifies any offence.
Zimbo, I asked because I was curious. My brother spent a summer in Poland travelling and teaching convorsational English to kids at summer camps, with his then girlfriend (who's white). He said he had a great time, he never mentioned he was treated differently, everyone they met seemed genuinely interested.
Racism does exist all over the world, that is true and we as a country are still in the early stages of dealing with ours. But whilst there's **** shops and chinkys in every town, we still have a long way to go. Because there's nothing wrong with calling them as such is there, it's just normal innit, Earnie?
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unlike you
I didn't resort to insulting anybody unlike you, Junkyard.
It's easy not being racist in countries where racism is disapproved of by the majority and tolerance is the norm. Now visit anywhere in North Africa as an independant traveller where streetwise = racist = safety. I think some people on this thread might realise they are perfectly capable of being racist when the circumstances demand it.
When i replied to this pointing out I had been there and not been racist I made the mistake of assuming you had been there and been streetwise racist and safe. so you have never been and have no personal knowledge of this...thanks for sharing..i have never been to France [ i have off course] can I describe it for you?
If you had not done any of this or ever been racist when the circumstances demand [ I dont think it ever does ] then really what was your point?
Threads on this forum should self-destruct and auto-lock after the first 25 comments or when two or more 'Big Hitters' have contributed, whichever happens first.
I must say, I never knew there were shops where one could go and buy ****s...
So Earnie gets pissed off when a Polish guy calls black people monkeys by has no qualms calling people ****s, Chinks, .......
Why don't you read my posts if you are going to comment on them - that would make sense would it not?
If you had read them then you would have seen that I clearly state that the word **** used as a general term is unacceptable as it is almost always intended to be insult. I don't mention anything at all about "chinks" .......you just made that up to embellish your criticism of me.
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....you wont use it to their face some would call this hypocrisy....
🙂 Yes, tailoring your language to suite those present is hypocrisy and has nothing to do with good manners.
In acts of unparalleled hypocrisy I, like millions of others, am constantly changing the words I use depending on the target audience. You on the other hand JY, undoubtedly always use exactly the same polite words whatever the circumstances and whoever the audience - hypocrisy is not for you. Conversations with you is no doubt like enjoying a chat and cup of tea with the vicar.
However in much of the rest of Britain things are rather different and people often use language and words which they, very hypocritically, wouldn't use if talking in front of certain other people.
A classic example of this, and one which I regularly experience, is how many people working in construction will use the F word and C word with gay abandon, and no one, including management, bats an eyelid. However if a lady appears on site, maybe as the client or potential buyer or sales lady, whatever, such talk tends to suddenly stop, failure to do so can result in a serious reprimand from management.
Yes, the extremely sexist "not in front of ladies" attitude is still very widespread, to the disgust of politically correct Guardian readers no doubt. Strangely enough though there is generally a slightly more relaxed attitude to the "not in front of ladies" rule in the case of canteen ladies, I guess that rather 'hypocritically' a social class consideration is applied.
You might also be horrified to learn JY, that there is also a great deal of lighthearted banter in these morally decadent environments which is based on sexual orientation and ethnicity. With much talk of "don't be such a poof" or the example of the Nigerian labour who would amuse me by responding to my requests with "you can kiss my black arse mate, the colonial days are over".
Yes, millions of people use words and expressions which they would never repeat at the vicarage tea party, call that hypocrisy if you will, but it doesn't automatically translate into meaning that they are intended to be insulting and derogatory.
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Some of the words used in this post may not mean you are a racist, but the level of ignorance here is amazing.
The N word is no different to the P' word - as they are both disgusting.
I'm going to the local shop and it is run by a person/human.
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I've read every post on this thread, excuse me for not remembering them all verbatim.
I was just assuming you'd use the word chink as liberally as you do ****, I mean why don't you, it's only a word. After all words mean nothing, they're just descriptive nouns aren't they?
****, **** shop are both racist terms - even tho **** shop is used innocently by many - but rather low down the scale of these things - IMO
I was just assuming you'd use the word chink as liberally as you do ****
You're probably not too far off the mark. Most people who refer to "****" shops also get their tea in the "chinky". I don't buy that "it's just a word" argument either, Eye. There are plenty of other words, so I can't understand why people don't find a different, better one, and use it.
**** shop is used innocently by many
Innocently? Lazily.
Innocently - people simply do not realise that it can be construed as racist
people simply do not realise that it can be construed as racist
I doubt that very much. They may not use it with racist intent, but they must be aware that in other contexts it's a term of vile abuse. Like ernie says, a lot of people would say "**** shop" but would never say just "****". So they know.
I've read every post on this thread, excuse me for not remembering them all verbatim.I was just assuming you'd use the word chink as liberally as you do ****......
Sorry mate, there's no excuse for that - you're still not paying a blind bit of notice to what I'm saying, preferring instead to claim that I am saying what you think I should be saying.
I have just responded to your first post by pointing out "I clearly state that the word **** used as a general term is unacceptable as it is almost always intended to be insult". But you choose to completely ignore that claiming that I use the word "liberally".
I don't know why you think making stuff up about me and then demanding an explanation is somehow a worthwhile exercise.
I tell you what, perhaps if we go back to the beginning and start all over again, and go round in full circles a few more times, then we'll all get to the bottom of this. I don't think we've discussed it enough. So here goes :
zimbo - MemberI know a lot of people who think nothing of using the words "**** shop" and "darky" and see nothing untoward in it.
ernie_lynch - MemberThat's probably because there is no racist intent, and it's just the way they speak.
