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Out of interest OP what waterproof membrane does it have, is it eVent? That stuff should have been subject to an industry wide recall.
What's up with eVent? I think that's what my North Face jacket is and that's been my daily winter coat for (ahem) north of ten years.
Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but outside of bikes, I've not heard of a 'lifetime' warranty being limited to an arbitrary lifespan that the company dreams up before today. I don't think it's reasonable to accept that consumers should know that "lifetime doesn't mean lifetime".
What’s up with eVent?
I think there have been durability issues. Just stuff I have picked up on other forums when looking at new gear that has backed up personal experience. Possibly related to construction method and the membrane not being adequately protected.
Right. I'll go check mine.
My mistake, it's HyVent. Whatever the hell that is.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to accept that consumers should know that “lifetime doesn’t mean lifetime”.
Do you think that the aftershave/car/hair shampoo/phone makes you more attractive to women? It's marketing guff to get you to feel better about parting with your hard earned. That's why it says lifetime, because as some-one pointed out on the first? page, it has no legal standing.
It's fascinating, it's compartmentalised thinking. You know that none of those things make you more attractive, so it's easily dismissed as obviously crap, but here's this other guff that's equally far-fetched but you really want to believe in it, so much so it becomes an article of faith, even though with a bit of critical thinking (and googling) you surely must know there's no way they'll honour such a thing?
I'm pretty sure manufacturers aren't allowed to state outright lies, though, which is why they don't make claims about shampoo making you more attractive. They just heavily imply it.
It might not have legal standing, but that's the bit I take issue with. It shouldn't be that way. I understand if there are ambiguous terms, when a statement is open to interpretation - cosmetics marketing people have been exploiting this since forever. But when wording is pretty clear, there's no ambiguity, so I don't understand why it's OK to say "Ah yes, but you should have known this outwardly factual statement was a lie on our part".
Or, to put it another way: If it's obvious that something shouldn't have a lifetime guarantee, don't claim that it has a lifetime guarantee.
It shouldn’t be that way
Yep, I should be cut like a Greek God...them's the breaks, eh? If something sounds too good to be true....
Putting 'Lifetime Warranty' in large print and then loads of disclaimer in small print hidden away is more attractive than 'Limited Lifetime Warranty' with disclaimer in small print. The latter is more truthful and would certainly make people pay attention.
I’d expect a top end road bike to outlive me.
Why? This is a classic example of people not correctly attributing value to the performance of a product. If you bought an F1 car would you expect it to last 100k miles? High end road bikes are usually performance/race orientated which means they sacrifice durability for performance. If you want a rugged long lasting road bike then don’t look at ‘high end’. You’re more likely to find it at the lower end of the product range.
I think there have been durability issues. Just stuff I have picked up on other forums when looking at new gear that has backed up personal experience. Possibly related to construction method and the membrane not being adequately protected.
It's much more sensitive to poor maintenance - eg: infrequent cleaning and DWR restoration -than, say, Gore-Tex, but brands don't relaly tell you that because it makes it sound like a high maintenance fabric, which it sort of is. Also when it was launched, it had significant edge over GTX when it came to breathability / moisture vapour transfer, but that's not really the case these days. It all comes down to the structure of the membrane's protection against contamination I think, but I'm not a micro-membrane engineer or owt.
I have visited Gore's testing and development facility in Germany and seen the amount of research they put into product development, which is one of the reasons the stuff is so expensive. They also have a 'Guaranteed to keep you dry' warranty that applies for the 'useful life of your garment' and is in addition to the brand's own warranty. If you're interested:
https://www.gore-tex.com/en_uk/support/guarantee-and-returns
I was meaning as presented, a "high end road bike" rather than a "high end racing bike." Quality rather than weight weenie performance.
A poor analogy perhaps.
I'm amazed anyone thinks anything is designed to last a lifetime btw. Our whole consumerist economic model is founded on a cycle of endless uprading, replacing, complementing etc. We won't stop until we've totally destroyed the planet by making into cars, bikes, disposable fashion and Rab jackets.
It all comes down to the structure of the membrane’s protection against contamination
That was my understanding too. I hear Gore have strict construction standards that manufacturers have to follow. It sounds like the makers of eVent didn't have the same standards or the standards they had were not up to scratch. It has virtually disappeared now so read into that what you will.
is it eVent? That stuff should have been subject to an industry wide recall.
Couldn’t disagree more; I’ve got an eVent Rab Bergen that has had a right battering and is still going strong. Had it about 6 years now and though it needs a regular wash it’s spot on; certainly a damn sight better than the berghaus Cheviot it replaced. Of note is that the zip is a quite chunky two way affair & uses a storm flap; proper British hillwalking jacket.
Speaking to a couple of industry insiders and apparently the only reason Rab swapped to Goretex from eVent is that Gore’s marketing has been so succesful that it has become synonymous with outdoor waterproof clothing, meaning they were losing market share.
That said, I run hot and though eVent was ok it still didn’t cope with my sweaty arse; My Paramo Helki is about the best I’ve had for staying dry whatever the weather.
I effectively killed a Rab Latok eVent jacket in one 10 day trip. Membrane got so gunked up with varying proportions of sweat, sun cream and midge repellent that I could never salvage it, no amount of washing or re-proofing ever got it back.
In fairness Tiso sort of grudgingly agreed to return it but I think I had lost the reciept or something. Either way was the last eVent I ever purchased...
This guy offers a 30 year guarantee on clothing.
The interesting thing would be to see whether repairs actually get done or whether you just get sent a new one. You can sensibly re-stitch a seam on a sweatshirt as a satisfactory repair but if you wear a hole in the elbow would customers comsidter a suede elbow patch as a satisfactory repair? Would fading, shrinking, stretching be covered? Would you still be wearing a baggy. mis-shapen sweater after 30 years just because the stitching is still ok?
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Funnily enough the oldest and most worn item of clothing I have is a t-shirt that was given away as a promotional freebie at an 'Underground Safety Equipment Rodeo' in 1995. Its still the right shape and still remarkably bright orange. It think the a half-life would be more suitable than a guarantee for that garment 🙂 So a 30 year </span>warrantee<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> on what is </span>really<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> a very basic garment </span>isn't<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> really a bold offer compared to outdoor gear or a business suit</span>
But a lot of long term warrantees are just a replacement deal - theres no repairing. Leatherman for instance don't repair anything they just send a new one which is a surprise for people who sent of their cherished monogrammed mulitdoofer and don't get the same one back
Theres been frequent mention on threads recently of people recommending Fireangel smoke alarms because 'the battery is guarenteed for 10 years' and take that to mean the battery will last for 10 years. Its unlikely to last even one 5th of that time and its a sealed unit- non of the people making those reccommmendations bought one of those alarms two years ago, let alone 10 years ago 🙂 The manuafacture will just replace it if you ask them and you've can find your proof of purchase but the guarantee isn't backed by any belief of their part that item will last as long as their customers believe
You can of course open a company offering free repairs forever on the prodiuct you make, get lots of press, sell lots of product at a premium and then just close the company again and go and do something else. I forget who it was offering a wonder-washing machine on that basis and left all their customers high and dry after just a year or two.
Theres been frequent mention on threads recently of people recommending Fireangel smoke alarms because ‘the battery is guarenteed for 10 years’ and take that to mean the battery will last for 10 years. Its unlikely to last even one 5th of that time and its a sealed unit- non of the people making those reccommmendations bought one of those alarms two years ago, let alone 10 years ago 🙂 The manuafacture will just replace it if you ask them and you’ve can find your proof of purchase but the guarantee isn’t backed by any belief of their part that item will last as long as their customers believe
Which goes back to my comment, has it lasted as long(er) than expected - if no, complain.
We won’t stop until we’ve totally destroyed the planet by making into cars, bikes, disposable fashion and Rab jackets.
Rab hazmat suit for surviving the post-apocalyptic wasteland, anyone?
Rab hazmat suit for surviving the post-apocalyptic wasteland, anyone?
How long should we reasonably expect the zips to last?
I think it’s 8 years old
I’d certainly consider that less than a lifetime for a jacket. If they want to offer a 5 year warranty then they should call it that. Claiming a lifetime warranty is marketing BS in this instance. Up there with unlimited broadband that has a limit
I dont' think you can measure the lifetime of a jacket in years. A highly technical jacket might only be worn by one person for a dozen days of summer hillwalking a year (100hrs? perhaps 1/2 of them in rain, all with straps wearing the waterproofing) and spend the rest of its time hanging in a nice dry cupboard, whilst another user might wear it as their "daily jacket" - but not wearing a rucksack (1000 hrs a year, 300 of them getting wet, but no extra wear) and then a mountain guide, outdoor instructor or similar might be putting double those hours on it with a rucksack on top.
I have to say a lifetime warranty on a jacket doesn't make sense the same way as a cast iron frying pan, but if its only against latent defects then most jackets fail for wear and tear anyway. Having dealt with other suppliers who pride themselves on product longevity I would have expected some sort of "we can't fix this, its wear and tear, but here's 30% off a replacement" type story - otherwise they are actually just guaranteeing your statutory rights!
Is 8 yrs reasonable for a jacket worn regularly? I'd say it probably is - with occasional use and good tlc 10+ years is quite possible, with constant use I think many people would accept that after 3 you might start to get issues.
The real question is do RAB want to be perceived as just another high fashion brand or do they want to be a leading brand in technical clothing and the support & price tags that go with that. They aren't mutually exclusive, but I'm pretty sure RAB had some changes of ownership and are focussed on ££ rather than long term customer retention - that's an inevitable consequence of being private equity owned - they want their money back in 3-5 yrs, and long term issues beyond that are the next owner's headache. Its not unlike governments!
Theres been frequent mention on threads recently of people recommending Fireangel smoke alarms because ‘the battery is guarenteed for 10 years’ and take that to mean the battery will last for 10 years. Its unlikely to last even one 5th of that time and its a sealed unit- non of the people making those reccommmendations bought one of those alarms two years ago, let alone 10 years ago 🙂 The manuafacture will just replace it if you ask them and you’ve can find your proof of purchase but the guarantee isn’t backed by any belief of their part that item will last as long as their customers believe
Eh? Are you saying that ALL the 10 yr lifetime smoke detectors being installed by people in Scotland to comply with the new legislation are actually going to get replaced 5x during their operational period? They are sealed units where the battery is not user-replaceable.
I'm confident that no manufacturer of such products is expecting to see significant numbers of failures at 2 years. Mean time before failure analysis is widespread in electronics and unlike jackets that have different usage and care regimes, smoke detectors have a fairly stable environment. Presumably if you burn the toast every day and set the thing off it will drain the battery quicker (although a reasonable false alarm rate will have been modelled in). In fact I suspect the only reason nobody is marketing a 15 or 20 year battery life version is that the smoke sensors or other electronics have a shorter life.
That jacket is still usable, ergo it is within the lifetime of the product. They should fix it without quibbling and/or stop exaggerated claims of long term support and ability to repair any failure on their marketing materials
So the only possible explanation for the zip failing is a manufacturing fault?
The repair thing is more out if order as they really haven't met their claim here.
Maybe not a manufacturing fault, but a poor choice of materials in a jacket designed to last a long time.
If you’re going to sell jackets based on claims of longevity, they should be designed to last a long time. If they don’t, it’s a failure of the product (unless it’s been abused, obviousl
But was it sold on the basis having along life? It just looks like it was sold on the basis of being free of manufacturing faults
Does anyone remember the North Face factory in Port Glasgow? Had big sales before shutting up and moving to the far east. We have a load of gear and some items are refusing to die. High prices today and warranty claims? I would rather take a chance with something cheaper and no extended guarantee.
But was it sold on the basis having along life? It just looks like it was sold on the basis of being free of manufacturing faults
I take your point but longevity is certainly heavily implied by a 'lifetime' warranty which presumably only applies to certain parts of the range, suggesting that those garments are longer lasting.
The problem is that there is currently a real market for ethically-produced, sustainable products that will last a long time. Fast fashion is old-fashioned and people want clothes that last.
I think consumers probably want to know which companies are making stuff that's actually going to last (or be repairable), and which companies are just making the same old disposable stuff with fluffed-up inferences of longevity. I don't think it's reasonable to imply that something will have a longer-than-average lifespan when it won't (AND when the manufacturer's definition of its lifespan appears to just be that of an average garment).
Even if 'lifetime' is not legally enforceable, consumers will decide what is reasonable. And if I decide the OP's case is not reasonable, I'll be less likely to spend my money with Rab.
Got another reply from RAB from a customer service manager.
“ We do state that there is "virtually no repair we cannot handle" and that is very much the case. Although unfortunately on rare occasions (as is the case here) not everything is repairable to a standard that we would deem acceptable on a technical piece of clothing where performance could be paramount.
If you would like us to, I am happy to offer you a repair to your jacket. It will be functional, however, the water resistance in that pocket area will also likely be compromised. The cost for a standard repair of this type on another jacket would normally be £30.00 (which includes carriage to and from our Service Centre) and I am happy to honour that price in spite of this being a significantly more time-consuming repair. “
So they can repair it now? But still want to charge me.
They’ve also offered to let me buy a new jacket for a “discounted price” for their “ Factory Shop Mountain Outfitters”.
Don’t know what to reply to that!!
Sounds like perfectly reasonable customer service to me. I'd take the offer of repair, £30 sounds like a fair price. You could be cheeky and then also ask for the discounted price, resign the repaired to 'shopping duties' and have a bargain new jacket that will last for another 8-10 years lifecycle. You may be shocked at the current pricing... I have an old Event Latok Alpine (leaks like a teabag), the new ones are double what I paid for mine 15 years ago..$400+ now.
Don’t know what to reply to that!!
Seems you can reply:
- Thank you, the way I use this 8 yr old jacket a leaky pocket is an acceptable risk. £30 is fair enough to keep my favourite jacket.
- Thank you, I'll take the chance to upgrade to a newer model at a discounted price.
- Thanks for clarifying, at the age of the jacket not sure £30 for a second rate repair is worth it, and as it seems your jackets aren't really guaranteed for life I'll shop around for alternatives.
Its not really a ridiculous position for them to take unless you believe the zip failed after 8 years due to some underlying design/manufacturing defect.
Yep, goes from bad to worse. We can repair it, but it'll be shit! Even if they couldn't do it themselves. If they cared, they could have outsourced it to trusted repairers.
together with:
Repair – Once you’ve invested a season or ten creating landmark moments with your Rab clothing and equipment, you won’t want it to end – and with the Rab Service Centre, it doesn’t have to. Staffed by specialist technicians, many of whom worked alongside our founder Rab Carrington, at our original Sheffield premises, there’s virtually no repair we can’t handle. Great kit. Long-term performance. Zero wastage. More adventure. That’s what the Service Centre is all about. If the Repair you require is not listed, then please contact us to see what we can do for you.
They're throwing the word Lifetime around, but backtracking to 2 1/2 years. Shysters.
Fast fashion is old-fashioned and people want clothes that last.
Have you been to a Primark recently?
Don’t know what to reply to that!!
Honestly? what d'you want from them?
No help to the OP, but my £200 Berghaus coat zip failed after 1 year. Apparently their “lifetime warranty” didn’t extend to wear and tear items such as zips.
I’ve had significantly better life and value from much cheaper clothes including those from primark (for shame).
I will not buy Berghaus again, and advise other not to too.
Santa Cruz have an industry leading, genuine lifetime warranty in my experience as a retailer and as a customer.
I cannot fault their consistently excellent service.
Theres been frequent mention on threads recently of people recommending Fireangel smoke alarms because ‘the battery is guarenteed for 10 years’ and take that to mean the battery will last for 10 years. Its unlikely to last even one 5th of that time and its a sealed unit- non of the people making those reccommmendations bought one of those alarms two years ago, let alone 10 years ago
I think you need to present some evidence for that one.
Even a standard alkaline 9v battery in the smoke detector in my camper van lasts about 6 years.
What you've written sounds like something posted by an electrician on Facebook to persuade you to have mains powered alarms fitted. By an electrician...
This thread just aptly demonstrates that most people just don't understand what 'lifetime' means when used in relation to a warranty. Its understandably a result of a level of egocentricity that explains why when we here 'lifetime' we think it must mean my personal human 'lifetime'. This is not what it means. In most cases it is the 'lifetime' of the product, this expectation will usually be set out in the small print by the manufacturer. A technical mountaineering jacket's intended use is to prioritise lightweight and breathability while being dragged across rocks, rubbed by ropes and packs in sometimes extreme conditions - just how long does anyone think the average user gets out of these products when they're being used as intended? That way of thinking should be the guide to what 'lifetime' means.
Scottish Mountain Gear charged £68 to replace the full zip on my ME gortext xcr jacket in Aug 2020, inc. a full wash n reproof and return postage cost. Only issue was that they couldn't colour match exactly so got a navy blue zip on a sky blue jacket which actually looks better.
£30 is a good deal if you can get a few years out of it.
This thread just aptly demonstrates that most people just don’t understand what ‘lifetime’ means when used in relation to a warranty. Its understandably a result of a level of egocentricity that explains why when we here ‘lifetime’ we think it must mean my personal human ‘lifetime’. This is not what it means. In most cases it is the ‘lifetime’ of the product, this expectation will usually be set out in the small print by the manufacturer. A technical mountaineering jacket’s intended use is to prioritise lightweight and breathability while being dragged across rocks, rubbed by ropes and packs in sometimes extreme conditions – just how long does anyone think the average user gets out of these products when they’re being used as intended? That way of thinking should be the guide to what ‘lifetime’ means.
Utter nonsense. Everyone knows what Lifetime means, Since this is Rab I'm not sure whether to say Sheffield's 79.7 or China's 77.9 years. To take a very common well understood term and use it to mean something with significantly less value, while allowing the impression of higher value to remain, is simply dishonest. There are plenty of ways they could have chosen to describe "a few years if you're lucky, we don't care once you've bought it", but that doesn't persuade punters to pay double vs the Craghoppers version, does it?
Whatever you think lifetime guarantee technically means it certainly implies you are buying a premium product which is made well from quality materials, and you can expect it to last significantly longer than a much lower priced item that fulfills a similar function.
Realistically once it has truly reached the end of its lifetime the customer won't want it repaired any more because it will still be shite.
Its understandably a result of a level of egocentricity that explains why when we here ‘lifetime’ we think it must mean my personal human ‘lifetime’.
Pretty good troll, could do better 6/10
Sounds like perfectly reasonable customer service to me.
Maybe if that's what they'd said in the first place.
Everyone knows what Lifetime means
As a word relating to a human lifespan, maybe. As a term defining the duration of a warranty, then clearly not - don't believe me, then a few minutes of googling will rectify that. The key thing is, there is no clear definition by law and it's broadly open to interpretation, it's a slippery concept because a products lifetime will vary per item and per intended use. So almost impossible to quantify to cover all consumer products. I only bother mentioning it as many customers could save themselves a lot of stress and spare shop staff a lot of grief, if they appreciated that fact. A 'lifetime warranty' may cover the 'lifetime' of the owner but that would be a minority exception especially in the world of sporting goods.
it’s a slippery concept
Slippery = dishonest when used in marketing
Sounds like perfectly reasonable customer service to me.
Agreed. But this doesn't make sense:
The cost for a standard repair of this type on another jacket would normally be £30.00...
I am happy to honour that price in spite of this being a significantly more time-consuming repair.
How can it simultaneously be a "standard repair of this type" and "a significantly more time-consuming repair"? Is "another jacket" wholly different?
Anyway. For comparison, the same repair at LSR would be £50. If you want to keep the jacket, I'd consider that a good offer.
We can repair it, but it’ll be shit!
I dunno, that sounds like arse-covering with a side order of trying to dissuade the OP. If they undertook the chargeable repair and it wasn't 100% perfect without prior warning to the customer, they'd be doing this merry dance for years.
This whole thread is about expectation management, the brand set expectations too high (lifetime warranty a phrase that should be banned without clarification) and the OP had unrealistic expectations that a lightweight technical garment would survive use throughout their personal lifetime, and in essence saw it as a everlasting gobstopper.
from a few legal sites: Not trolling...
The lifetime of the warranty refers to the period of time in which the warranty remains in force, starting from the date the purchaser buys the product. The lifetime in question is rarely the lifetime of the purchaser, but rather the length of time the manufacturer continues to make the product. Once a product is discontinued, the length of time the manufacturer remains liable under the warranty is specified in the warranty documentation.
Who decides what constitutes a “lifetime”? Is it your life, as the consumer? Occasionally that might be true, but far more often the word “lifetime” refers to the average useful life of the product itself, as decided by the manufacturer or the seller, depending on who’s offering the warranty.
Defining a Lifetime Warranty. Stop for just a moment, and think about the word ‘lifetime.’ How would you define it? Now think about the words ‘lifetime warranty.’ If something has a lifetime warranty, how long do you expect it to be covered? As long as you live? As long as the company is in business? As long as the product is made?
Your answer may not match the ones we suggested. And it may not match the one your contractor uses, either. From a legal standpoint, there is no absolute definition that specifies how long a ‘lifetime’ warranty must last.
Interesting nerdy thread here about zips on waterproof jackets and premium vs high street outdoor gear.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/are_modern_zips_as_rubbish_as_i_think-609940
Looks to me like the OP's jacket is using a cheap coil zip rather than the better quality Vislon moulded types.
but rather the length of time the manufacturer continues to make the product.
Cool so that's a completely different definition again. Clear as mud.