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Just as a counterpoint to demonstrate the RAB service being s*** (which I would agree it is), I have a Jansport rucksack with a lifetime guarantee.
It's not a super high end thing - probably cost £40 or so - and one of the (massive YKK) zips broke a few years ago. The bag must have been 10 years old at that point and had plenty of wear elsewhere.
I sent it to their repair centre in Germany (postage there and back at my cost admittedly), and they replaced the zip for free, no quibble at all. I didn't even need to try and find the receipt. That's how it should work.
Yep it’s a zip, they break. I’ve got 2 Rab jackets that are 10 years old and still going strong. Are you using it correctly?
Just as a counterpoint to demonstrate the RAB service being s*** (which I would agree it is), I have a Jansport rucksack with a lifetime guarantee.
It’s not a super high end thing – probably cost £40 or so – and one of the (massive YKK) zips broke a few years ago. The bag must have been 10 years old at that point and had plenty of wear elsewhere.
I sent it to their repair centre in Germany (postage there and back at my cost admittedly), and they replaced the zip for free, no quibble at all. I didn’t even need to try and find the receipt. That’s how it should work
Change JanSport to EastPack and I have a similar story.
Though when another zip went (after maybe 15 or 18 years of use) it was cheaper to take it to a local tailor so fix than to send it to Germany.
If they aren’t willing to suggest even a ballpark figure for lifetime of their products they shouldn’t be allowed to use lifetime guarantee as a selling point, and they shouldn’t be allowed to claim they can do nearly any repair but not be able to replace zips.
This is correct.
Manufacturers resorting to hyperbole to build a mental image of a warranty, then to deny that the common definition of that word is not the intention they were trying to convey should be made illegal, in my opinion.
At best it's disingenuous, at worst a bald faced lie. The companies using it deserve to be lumped in with Tucker Carlson and Fox News.
Sew new zip in place.
Understatement of the thread! I guess you could do it with a sewing machine? I'll always try and sew things myself but either I'm spectacularly fat-fingered or it isn't exactly a quick and easy skill, especially for something like a zip which I imagine would require some relative close, precise stitching to hold it in place?
I seem to wreck zips quickly, I definitely think there is some truth in the idea of 'mishandling'. My nice Howies commuter jacket in particular needs to be manipulated just so before it will close up.
I’ve got 2 Rab jackets that are 10 years old and still going strong.
So they shouldn't be delaminating after 8 then eh.
It’s the general dismissiveness of their replies that’s bothering me, as what they have said is opposite to what their website says.
Problem with paying for it to be fixed (I’ve had a look at prices) is that I don’t want to pay for it then get another problem a short time later as I may as well buy a brand new jacket. Seems the price to fix may be £30-40 and that’s a bit of a risk to take.
Doesn’t make me want to buy quality expensive gear again, I’ve had clothing last a lot longer than this jacket which has been worn a lot more in more demanding conditions and cost less. I don’t mind spending more to get quality and longevity but if you don’t actually get what you pay for what’s the point?
I still wear, very regularly, a Fox MTB gilet which I think I’ve had 20 years and it still looks like new! (Ish) 😂
“ I’ll always try and sew things myself but either I’m spectacularly fat-fingered or it isn’t exactly a quick and easy skill, especially for something like a zip which I imagine would require some relative close, precise stitching to hold it in place?”
Before I found it had a “lifetime” guarantee I had a look at the construction around the zip to see if I could fix it myself (we do repair a lot of things ourselves on clothes) and the current zip can’t be fixed and I couldn’t see how to remove the zip without destroying the jacket. I would assume the people who made it would know how to do it hence me going to their website to see if I could send it to them.
Am bored, so have made a 'nerd' observation...had you noticed that from the photo of the front of the jacket it appears that the material bonding section at the base of the RH pocket is on its way out anyway as its half gone. Those pucker sections in the tape or bonding delaminations will usually appear quite close to the end of a jackets lifetime, If it makes you feel better I've had similar jackets do this after 2-3 years of use - which in our delusional consumer society is closer to a products expected lifecycle from many consumers and manufacturers.
I agree it’s a bit crap and the blurb on website is completely bollocks.
Although given the situation, if you are that attached to it I’d just be taking it to the local tailor to fix.
Out of interest did you really buy it based on it having a life time guarantee?
Long story short, my wife had a lovely RAB waterproof jacket that cost us a LOT of money a number of years ago. One of the things that really drew us to it was the lifetime guarantee
But…
only cos it had this fault I went to the RAB website and had a look if they had a repair facility and found it had a lifetime guarantee!
Out of interest did you really buy it based on it having a life time guarantee?
Just one more thing ma'am.
Vote with your wallet + spread the negative word on social media.
It's the only way that companies offering substandard quality, overpriced kit will listen.
It was only when I went to the website and found the guarantee information that I remembered about it when we bought it. It’s something I always check (after working in retail you tend to be very switched on about after service!) but just had forgotten about.
“ Vote with your wallet + spread the negative word on social media.
It’s the only way that companies offering substandard quality, overpriced kit will listen.”
Yeah done that now. Going to forget about it now as I’ve done as much as I can. They clearly don’t care about product support in any way so just going to have to accept it.
Slightly tangential to this thread but I always seem to struggle with finding decent waterproof and breathable jackets. Only seem to last a couple of years before they start to leak and stop doing their waterproof job. Makes me hesitant to spend too much on a decent jacket yet most of the cheaper jackets don't really seem to be very waterproof either. Rather catch 22!
Problem with paying for it to be fixed (I’ve had a look at prices) is that I don’t want to pay for it then get another problem a short time later as I may as well buy a brand new jacket. Seems the price to fix may be £30-40 and that’s a bit of a risk to take.
I think the other thing has happened. It's delaminating so only worth a repair as a gardening jacket
Doesn’t make me want to buy quality expensive gear again, I’ve had clothing last a lot longer than this jacket which has been worn a lot more in more demanding conditions and cost less. I don’t mind spending more to get quality and longevity but if you don’t actually get what you pay for what’s the point?
I think that is the real tragedy here. High price just doesn't mean long life for most brands. It's all about a fast and light vibe. Great for alpnists and bike packers with the budget or sponsorship to replace stuff regularly. But as most of these products get used for a quick trip to waitrose it's daft and not sustainable.
Genuine question. In which branch of retail does life time guarantee mean life time guarantee?
It was only when I went to the website and found the guarantee information that I remembered about it when we bought it. It’s something I always check (after working in retail you tend to be very switched on about after service!) but just had forgotten about
Vote with your wallet + spread the negative word on social media.
The problem is everybody has a good story to balance out the bad. The OP had a bad experience with Rab, someone else found them good to deal with. Someone else on the thread was disappointed with Patagonia, but my wife just had her 7 year old coat replaced with a new one. My own personal "never again" is Jack Wolfskin after some terrible after care but I'm sure someone else found them great. The misleading marketing speak is pretty poor and quantifiable though so they can be rightly lambasted for that.
Genuine question. In which branch of retail does life time guarantee mean life time guarantee?
I worked with a guy who ran a small business making circus equipment. He offered a lifetime warranty and claimed it was his lifetime. If he was alive he'd repair or replace it, once he's dead you were on your own.
How much was it in the first place anyway?
Genuine question. In which branch of retail does life time guarantee mean life time guarantee?
Le Creuset for one
Le Creuset is proud of the workmanship in its products and guarantees its enamelled cast iron cookware, from the date of purchase, for the lifetime of the original owner, whether a self purchase or received as a gift.*
Is this the sort of think alpkit will take in and give a second life to?
TBH, 8 years out of a jacket seems pretty good going these days.
Edit:
Le Creuset for one
Cast iron jackets for everybody!
I would be miffed as well. Got plenty of 90's stuff that just refuses to die; North Face and Nike. They weren't silly expensive - I would never pay £400 for a plastic jacket. And if I did, by heck would I expect it to last more than 8 years. I would expect it to still look new.
8 years is nothing for a jacket really. And poor show to those that have been slagging the OP off. "You used the jacket as intended? My God man! What were you thinking!! This is a consumerist forum and we are happy to throw things away!"
Cast iron jackets for everybody!
Definitely waterproof, not sure about breathability.
Cast iron jackets for everybody!
Cast iron warranties anyway.
8 years is nothing for a jacket really.
I'm still using the yellow Mountain Equipment Denali Gore Tex that I bought in the mid/late 1990s. A bit of the lining got torn but it still does everything I need, with the odd re-proof. Ditto a burgundy Karrimor fleece of similar vintage.
The colours of both have kind-of come back in fashion again now too.
I'm not sure cast iron pans are a reasonable comparison. I've got bits of stone on my house that aren't as old as my inherited pans that have worn out quicker.
The problem is everybody has a good story to balance out the bad. The OP had a bad experience with Rab, someone else found them good to deal with
Undoubtedly - Rab fixed for free the shoulder seams on a jacket of mine - looked like damage from rucksack straps which I would have called wear and tear and been happy to pay for. I say "looked like" because it was like that when I bought it on ebay so I can't be sure but Rab fixed it anyway.
I'm not sure I'd expect the zip fixed under guarantee after several years use but the OP's right to be disappointed that Rab couldn't offer a repair in-house.
I am so sick of crap service and broken promises from manufacturers and retailers. Not a month goes by when I’m not complaining about something going wrong
Probably a slight exaggeration for effect but if true you're either very unlucky, make a lot of poor purchasing decisions or have some unreasonable expectations.
It’s the general dismissiveness of their replies that’s bothering me, as what they have said is opposite to what their website says.
Yes I found the same recently when I contacted Rab. Basically “now we have your money we don’t care”
Plenty of other companies to choose from, all of which use the same base fabrics to some degree so it’s a case of picking a fabric and then picking a jacket with that fabric that has the right fit and features.
I tend to ask a mate who’s worked for Mountain Rescue what they use. Admittedly they get a lot of kit donated but for obvious reasons anything not up to scratch gets binned quickly. His answer is almost always Paramo.
Good to find out about repairs, I have a 20? year old mountain hardware jacket where the zip has come away from the fabric (bonded not sewn). 5 month old bitey puppy means I'd prefer not to splash out on a new waterproof right now.
Slightly tangential to this thread but I always seem to struggle with finding decent waterproof and breathable jackets. Only seem to last a couple of years before they start to leak and stop doing their waterproof job. Makes me hesitant to spend too much on a decent jacket yet most of the cheaper jackets don’t really seem to be very waterproof either.
I don't think any waterproof jacket will keep you dry unless you are standing very still and there's no wind.
Moisture gets down the collar and up the sleeves. Even the most breathable jackets (Shakedry) will still get sweaty inside. I've revised my expectations, I now use waterproofs just to delay or prevent the sudden chilling from getting rain/downpours. I'll still get wet from sweat and drips getting in, but this cools me down far slower than getting completely drenched from not having a jacket. So long as I'm moving and wearing and appropriate baselayer (usually merino in the winter) I'll stay warm and comfortable.
Granted, if/when you stop and you're wet then you're going to cool down. I don't think there's any way to prevent this other than not sweating! Personally I keep meaning to get a packable down jacket or something for winter rides so if I'm forced to stop I can keep warm. Maybe even stash a dry base layer in a framebag!
Ring their Sales department. Enquire about a comparable jacket and then ask about their 'lifetime' guarantee and what they'd reasonably expect its lifetime to be. Compare and contrast.
This is a bit of a poor show from Rab, in contrast I bought a Paramo jacket in 2000, 10 years later the poppers were a bit 'lose' so I sent it back to them. They replaced the poppers, cleaned, reproofed and returned for free. They even apologised that they couldn't get an oil mark out.
The fabric on the back is getting a bit thin now after 20 years, I wonder if they'll replace the panel?
I'd keep banging the drum on the Lifetime Warrnaty thing, it was a key selling point. In Plain English a 'Lifetime Guarantee' suggests that, the lifetime of the owner, not some arbitrary lifetime that they deem as being a fair lifetime.
“ I’ll always try and sew things myself but either I’m spectacularly fat-fingered or it isn’t exactly a quick and easy skill, especially for something like a zip which I imagine would require some relative close, precise stitching to hold it in place?”
Before I found it had a “lifetime” guarantee I had a look at the construction around the zip to see if I could fix it myself (we do repair a lot of things ourselves on clothes) and the current zip can’t be fixed and I couldn’t see how to remove the zip without destroying the jacket. I would assume the people who made it would know how to do it hence me going to their website to see if I could send it to them.
OK, so the teeth have separated from the zip carrier. It's a waterproof zip which is good in some respects as it's stiffer so easier to control, but harder to get the needle through. You need to unpick the stitching between the really dark purple bit (zip carrier) and the light purple jacket fabric. The whole zip will just fall out. The only awkward part sewing it back in is if there is a lining as well as you have to line up the lining, zip and outer fabric. It's easier with a needle rather than a sewing machine, but not as neat. Pin it roughly in place first to keep it in line.
Take your time, wear a thimble to push the needle through, and it'll be done in an hour.
60cm Waterproof zips are less than £4 on Amazon. Seriously it's much easier then you think it'll be.
In Plain English a ‘Lifetime Guarantee’ suggests that, the lifetime of the owner, not some arbitrary lifetime that they deem as being a fair lifetime.
It's always of endless fascination when working in a retail environment selling goods covered by 'lifetime warranties' that there is still such a predominant misunderstanding amongst the general public of what one actually means. They may exist for some heavy duty once in a lifetime purchase products (can't think of many, if any, of those) but no brand I have ever dealt with has ever offered a warranty for the lifetime of the original owner. It's for the realistic lifecycle of the product, which many are severely disappointed when they find out how short that actually is.
Case in point which many will be familiar with...you find a crack in the BB of a top end road race frame covered by a 'lifetime' warranty, but it's over 5 years old. On a product that is designed for a race team to run for a season or two at most, the owner may not have used it that much in that timescale but some riders would have equally destroyed it. Whether the customer gets any joy out of that may be as much down to whether the warranty department guy has had a good breakfast or not, and I've had requests turned down for that scenario...but have also seen brands go way beyond what is necessary to support a customer even way beyond a reasonable time scale, though this as probably more about what they have lying around in stock that they can afford to give away...
no brand I have ever dealt with has ever offered a warranty for the lifetime of the original owner. It’s for the realistic lifecycle of the product
So, playing devil's avocado (sorrynotsorry) - why not just state the realistic lifecycle of the product as the warranty period?
Unless... they can only define that when the individual product lines begin to fail - and therefore the "lifetime warranty" ends at the point where most buyers might need it?
Is that too cynical?
In practice, for high performance products at longer timescales it comes down to a balance of whether a failure has most likely to have occurred from fair wear and tear or whether it has occurred from a design or manufacturing fault which would have existed from new, but presented later on. Which is why it's such a grey area, although good warranty departments will have a handle on this as they will be the ones witnessing the recurrence of common faults. A warranty's intent is really to cover against any manufacturing defects, it's not a promise that a product will perform for 'x' many years.
It's not really cool for them to market a lifetime warranty when 'lifetime' is a totally arbitrary concept seemingly decided on a whim by the manufacturer according to completely opaque criteria.
Had similar with Mondraker a few years ago. Haven't bought anything with a 'lifetime' warranty since...
Van Nicholas..
1.1 Van Nicholas will replace (not repair) any Titanium frame that fails due to manufacturer defects in materials or workmanship for the lifetime of the frame. Every bicycle has a limited life, the so-called useable life-cycle. The duration of the useable life-cycle of bicycles depends on the type of frame, the way in which and the circumstances under which the bicycle is ridden and the care/maintenance the bicycle receives. The lifetime guarantee period is established on the basis of the duration of the useable life cycle of the bicycle. Van Nicholas sets the lifetime of their frames at an average of 25 years.
I guess you can argue that 25 years is hardly a "lifetime", at least not in the human sense. However, at least they've quantified it.
Thats carefully worded from Van Nicholas but still essentially ambiguous. After 10 years and the frame cracks at the head tube, who determines whether it's failed from defective workmanship or from continually plowing into that pothole at the end if the drive for example? Also if their entire range is averaged at 25 years then how long should one expect their raciest offering to last? Ironic as have certainly seen many Titanium frames lifetime warranties rejected in way shorter timespans, but atleast they're trying to spell it out, most don't...
RAB Jacket – what’s the point in offering a lifetime guarantee?
Marketing
It’s not really cool for them to market a lifetime warranty when ‘lifetime’ is a totally arbitrary concept seemingly decided on a whim by the manufacturer according to completely opaque criteria.
Agreed - if the guarantee doesn't cover the lifetime of the original purchaser then they should simply say how long the warranty is in years.
But TJ has it - it's just marketing guff.
Stupid of them to claim lifetime on a jacket as clearly they’re not going to last forever. Get a ski instructor wearing it all day every day and you’d be lucky to get two ski seasons out of it.
Scottish Mountain Gear in Musselburgh. Have saved a couple of very old Gore jackets and twice repaired my Shakedry when the cat sharpened her claws on it!
Give them a shout, only drawback is a 3-4 week wait last I checked.
They've just emailed me to tell me they've retaped the seams on my 15+ year old berghaus, in less than a week.