[Closed] Question for teachers/youth workers - first aid procedures

999

Teachers are quite possibly not insured to take pupils in their cars - don't see what stopping them calling a taxi or ambulance though.

I'm a youth worker (amongst other things) and I'd have called an ambulance I think.

grum - that was my thought, accepting the possible insurance argument (as a former claims manager I'd think that was being harsh though), but it seems the ambulance/taxi option is not the done thing.

Pretty standard procedure. If they go in an ambulance a member of staff has to go with them so parents picking up is much much easier and preferred by the school!

With my parent hat on I wouldn't be impressed at all, probably a valid point about the insurance, but calling an ambulance I would expect as a minimum, especially after contacting the parents and being told it would be over an hour before they could get there.
My wife had a trampoline accident and developed DVT and we almost lost here, it hasn't stopped our daughter who loves trampolining.

As a scout leader I would have called the ambulance, after many an uneventful event on the last two events we have had 2 ambulances a fast response paramedic and the local first responders, one didn't require hospitalisation the other the child was in hospital for a few hours and discharged, but better to be safe then sorry.

We're not insured to carry kids in our cars...could have used a minibus though!

Aye not insured to take them in our own cars but just ring 999 & they'll deal with it as appropriate. Unless you work at offerton high school & your a donut

I'd asked them why they hadn't rang 999 a kid with a possibly broken arm is a damn good reason to ring. Letting them sit for what could have been a hour in pain is ridiculous.

Seems daft not to have called an ambulance imo.

I would ask the school in writing for their risk assesment as regards use of a trampoline, along with the qualifications of staff trained to supervise the activity, along with their policy in writing of what happens if a child suffers an injury.

That should make then stand up and be counted,also mention you may be pursuing a claim for [s]a family holiday, [/s]compenstation for lack of care by the staff concerned.

Completely unreasonable, 999 is the only reasonable response. Member of staff to accompany, and if that means other groups in the school need to combine to give staff cover, then tough. Perfectly reasonable and sensible for the parent to call 999 after taking the call from the school too.

Drac - Moderator

999

I would ask the school in writing for their risk assessment as regards use of a trampoline, along with the qualifications of staff trained to supervise the activity, along with their policy in writing of what happens if a child suffers an injury.

That should make then stand up and be counted,also mention you may be pursuing a claim for a family holiday, compenstation for lack of care by the staff concerned.

I've dealt with a few accidents involving broken arms/legs etc at schools and I've always 999'd it and sent a suitable adult with the child.

A member of the management team can normally cover a class while a teacher goes unless it is a primary school where staff levels are normally low. Could always send a teaching assistant.

Sorry, the insurance is a red herring. The law demands that all vehicle policies cover the driver for injuries to passengers in the car. There was quite a stooshie when this was introduced in the 60's.

It's not the injury to passengers that is the issue (that's compulsory third party liability), it's using your car for a work/business purpose when teachers may not have business use.

No claim for the accident from my mate btw, accepts it was one of those things, proper trampoline coaches etc. It's just the lack of action that has annoyed him.

That, and the telephone call from the head the next day asking several fishing questions to try and establish if they would be claiming, and suggesting that my mate's daughters drug regime (liver transplant at 11 months old, so anti rejection stuff) might make her more susceptible to broken bones in the first place..... 🙄

Most have business use in my school (primary) - head would take or phone 999 I'd have thought

Seems I'm not alone with my thoughts on this - I'd ask my mate who works in H&S for a council but I suspect that he may end up getting the accident report from the school in question!

I may also check the policy at my kids primary school as well.....

It's not the injury to passengers that is the issue (that's compulsory third party liability), it's using your car for a work/business purpose when teachers may not have business use.

I certainly wouldnt have taken her on my motorbike if it had happend at my school! Not insured for pillions!!

The insurance is a red herring too, a significant fracture requires ambulance/paramedic response for proper immobilization and monitoring in case of internal blood loss or nerve damage.

As teacher it would be 999.
However there just might be a reason for that not to happen and to be honest you have come across half a story. Nothing short of the horses mouth should be believed from both sides .

t would not be sensible for a parent to call 999 if the school has and I am damn sure a remote call could be frowned upon as it would be too indirect. The 999 response team would want 1st hand details not 3rd hand from a distraught parent.

The real answer is nothing to do with us and is strictly between the school and the parent's. There will be a policy to deal with this and the parents should be aware of it

Seems reasonable to me. Child protection policy may mandate that two teachers would need to accompany the child. Insurance for work purposes as above. A teacher can't authorise anything at the hospital anyway.
It doesn't seem serious enough to require an ambulance and if you did call one it would be quicker to transport yourself.

Best to get the parents over as quick as possible - transport for them is not the schools problem.

I am a PT Pupil Support in a secondary school. We would have called the parent to take the child to hospital as OP's case. As mentioned above, staff cannot give consent for treatment - the parent is required to do this.

Obviously if the injury was life threatening, 999 is the way to go, and consent is less of an issue. There will be loads of exceptions and circumstances where practice will have to be modified. Jehovah's Witness child requiring blood transfusion anyone?...

Parent and former Beaver Scout Leader
options
2 people travel with the kid to A&E in a member of staff's car - I'm sure most teachers/TA's would avoid using car for work related activities because of insurance issues but this would seem a reasonable exception
1 person takes the child and sits them in the rear of the car - personally I would avoid that option but if really stuck

Suggest parent pays for a taxi and member of staff travels with child and parent pays for taxi back when arrives

Unless an obvious (open wound bone/sticky out) fracture an ambulance is a wasted resource and probably would take 20/30mins as non urgent unless hit lucky

As to consent - available responsible adult can give

My daughter (who has a medical condition that means fractures are complicated) broke her wrist on her BMX a couple of weeks back - by the time I'd picked up her sister from Saturday job on way to hospital, picked up some food and books it would have been over an hour before I got there - OP doesn't say if school gave pain relief - if didn't based on 1 hour pick up and being in contact with parents that I would be annoyed about

Ex youth worker here.

When I worked in that area, my car was insured for business purposes. The policy was though that no staff member was allowed to travel alone in a car with a young person - I would have had to have another staff member or volunteer with me if I had taken a child/young person in my car. This was to protect against any sort of allegations of inappropriate behaviour.

As for an emergency situation, it would be a matter of discretion. If a child was seriously hurt or unconscious, then 999 and first aid first, then call named emergency contact. Staff member would go with the child in the ambulance and meet parents/guardians there.

For a minor injury that still may require hospital treatment, we would not have been inclined to send a child in an ambulance for the reasons outlined by antigee. If we had the staff available, and the parents agreed, a staff member would take the child (accompanied by a second staff member). But the reality is that sparing 2 staff isn't always possible, so in that case, we would have had to ask parents to pick them up. The alternative if parents had no transport was sending the child in a taxi accompanied by a staff member or volunteer.

We would not have been allowed to administer any pain relief to a child under 16 without parents' permission, and even then not allowed to a child under 12 at all. If the parents allowed their child to carry kiddie paracetamol or something with them, then we'd look the other way though.

It all seems pretty draconian but the rules these days governing that sort of thing are, and you bet your life a lot of parents will sue the behind off you if anything happens to their kids, even if you try to do the right thing.

As a parent, my response would be: you broke them, you fix them. Ambulance if you can't take them yourself.

However, I remember when I broke my arm as a kid*. Cycled home, had dinner, father at the dinner table noticed my arm was a funny shape, so we had pudding then drove to the hospital.

*Rode my Raleigh Pickle into a lamp post while trying to do a no-handed jump.

Not a parent, youth worker, or teacher. I am a first aider though, FWIW.

In this instance, 999 all the way. No one has mentioned it yet, but there was a complication, whether you like it or not. It's called "shock" - it can't be avoided and if left untreated it can be fatal.

This is one of those incidents where procedure seems to have overtaken common sense. If it had been me, an ambulance would have been summoned first, parents contacted second (and kept updated, every ten minutes or so) and the child taken to hospital whether the parents agreed to it or not.

As a parent, my response would be: you broke them, you fix them

In my experience (admittedly professional) kids are fairly adept at breaking themselves. It's that attitude that is the reason why schools, youth clubs etc act the way they do. Always got to be someone's fault. When I was a kid, accidents, broken bones etc was part of life being a kid.

A hurt child usually feels better when their parent or main carer is with them, FWIW, so that's also why it's preferable that the parents take their child to hospital.

No one has mentioned it yet, but there was a complication, whether you like it or not. It's called "shock" - it can't be avoided and if left untreated it can be fatal.

Tell that to the paramedics who showed up at the youth club I worked at a few years ago and had a go at us for wasting their time on a kid with a suspected broken ankle. We were told it was non-urgent and therefore we shouldn't have called them out.

We have a welfare officer that would tend to the pupil and make the decision. Going from past incidents she would call for an ambulance and call parents at the same time. If parents can get to school they would then accompany the child to hospital if not a member of staff would travel in the ambulance and stay with the child until parent arrived.

TroutWrestler - Member
I am a PT Pupil Support in a secondary school. We would have called the parent to take the child to hospital as OP's case. As mentioned above, staff cannot give consent for treatment - the parent is required to do this.

Obviously if the injury was life threatening, 999 is the way to go, and consent is less of an issue. There will be loads of exceptions and circumstances where practice will have to be modified. Jehovah's Witness child requiring blood transfusion anyone?...

The policy was though that no staff member was allowed to travel alone in a car with a young person - I would have had to have another staff member or volunteer with me if I had taken a child/young person in my car. This was to protect against any sort of allegations of inappropriate behaviour.

WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What's the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

Unless an obvious (open wound bone/sticky out) fracture an ambulance is a wasted resource

You are aware what the first person on this thread suggesting "999" does for a job?

What's the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

whole new thread required, possibly a new forum...... take this to mumsnet please.

whole new thread required, possibly a new forum...... take this to mumsnet please.

No, they're scary on there 🙂

As an aside: this British obsession with paedophiles is really weird when you look at it from abroad, the Spanish obsession is with wife-beaters/gender based violence, something which hardly registers in UK news.

As a parent, my response would be: you broke them, you fix them.

WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What's the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

aracer - Member
Unless an obvious (open wound bone/sticky out) fracture an ambulance is a wasted resource
You are aware what the first person on this thread suggesting "999" does for a job?

No but I must admit to never reading the "what do you do for living" / "what small animals have you personally stuffed" threads
I believe only footballers consider an ambulance essential for non life threatening injuries - Football Coach?

As a cub scout leader, cycle coach and first aid trainer my response would depend on the level of pain and distress the child was in. Lots of pain and distress - 999, child not too bothered - take him to hospital in my car (insured for business use) assuming I have someone who can supervise the rest of the group. If I haven't then it's an ambulance.

Making a distressed child sit around and wait for a parent to deal with it for an hour - unacceptable and more likely to result in a claim IME.

The child's welfare comes first and any procedure which protects the school/organisation before the child is IMO an unreasonable procedure and likely to fall flat if questioned in court.

WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What's the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

Great world we live in now ain't it! But it's comments such as Project's (compensation) and bencooper's (you broke them) above that got us where we are though. We are procedured and protocolled to high heaven so the common sense solution just can't happen. As a society we reap what we sow I guess....

As a parent, my response would be: you broke them, you fix them.

IMHO, it's the whole finger-pointing blame culture that means schools are becoming too scared of litagation to do anything other than wrap their charges in blacnkets and give them all the same grade by default.

WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What's the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

Having a CRB check doesn't make you immune to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

This.

An allegation of inappropriate conduct towards a young person can ruin a career. Therefore as a professional, you don't take the risk. If it was you and them in the car, it's your word against theirs so you can't disprove anything. And the parents will come for you with pitchforks, whether you are guilty or not.

In my experience in that area of work, there seems to be little in between the parents who don't give a monkeys what their kids are up to as long as they're out of their hair, and the parents who will sue over a broken fingernail.

What's wrong with my comment? If a school is going to be in loco parentis then they should act like it and take the kid to hospital. School nurse or first aider should have permission to use their car or a minibus or whatever.

What's wrong with my comment?

What was wrong with your comment was the inference, however tongue in cheek it was implied. "[i][b]you[/b][/i] broke them". Not "broke their arm whilst at school" or "broke their arm whilst taking part in an activity". There is a language of blame/guilt pervading so much of what we do; especially dealing with young people.

As it happens, what you think [i]should[/i] happen mirrors closely with mine. I've just sadly been around the block long enough to know why what should happen often can't and the (often sad and depressing) reasons why (as outlined by LMP above).

I must admit to never reading the "what do you do for living" / "what small animals have you personally stuffed" threads

Neither do I, but it takes a certain level of disinterest in other people to be totally unaware of what certain people on here do for a living.

FWIW we had an ambulance turn up at our local primary last week for a kid who'd fainted. I didn't notice them being upset at being called.

Actually, a CRB check just shows you have never been caught....

If a school is going to be in loco parentis then they should act like it and take the kid to hospital. School nurse or first aider should have permission to use their car or a minibus or whatever.

I agree with you on that point. That would be the common sense approach. But because of a) instances of abuse that have happened when adults in positions of trust have an opportunity to be alone with a child and b) the fear parents and carers have (and can instil in their children) of a) happening, common sense is no longer allowed to prevail.

A lot of parents only want the school to be in loco parentis as long as the school don't do anything the parents disagree with, like give their snowflake a detention, confiscate their mobile phone, or give them a paracetamol when they break their arm. The schools and professionals unfortunately can't do right for doing wrong with some people.

A lot of parents only want the school to be in loco parentis as long as the school don't do anything the parents disagree with, like give their snowflake a detention, confiscate their mobile phone, or give them a paracetamol when they break their arm. The schools and professionals unfortunately can't do right for doing wrong with some people.

Convert, my comments where made to the O/P, the one who wanted some advice for his freind and child, we all have the ability to sue a company,school hospital etc, if the care and support they provide falls below the standards required,asking for the various risk assesments and training of the staff all legal obtainable documents unde the FOI, will perhaps get the managenment of the school to re think their present system or even to have one.

The kid was left at the school and under their supervision, so they have a duty of care to ensuree he is looked after,in a safe and secure environmnet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-24637366

seems as if schools now do have a non delegable duty of care, so cant delaegate the duty of care to others for children who are in their care.

The kid was left at the school and under their supervision, so they have a duty of care to ensuree he is looked after,in a safe and secure environmnet.

seems as if schools now do have a non delegable duty of care, so cant delaegate the duty of care to others for children who are in their care.

So, you take all those swimming lessons, school trips, any kind of playground equipment and I daresay even PE kit, and you can just throw it all away, because no-one's going to dare use it any more. Fantastic.

So, you take all those swimming lessons, school trips, any kind of playground equipment and I daresay even PE kit, and you can just throw it all away, because no-one's going to dare use it any more.

I've got a mate who is a technician in a tech studies department - they've got tonnes and tonnes of materials and equipment they can't use any more because kids aren't allowed to make anything any more.

- Member

The kid was left at the school and under their supervision, so they have a duty of care to ensuree he is looked after,in a safe and secure environmnet.

And if the training and risk assessments are all in order, what do you do then? Maybe accept that accidents do happen, or look for someone else to sue?

but thats why you ask questions and threaten to sue, to see if they have been adhered with..........

but thats why you ask questions and threaten to sue, to see if they have been adhered with..........

I would amend this sentence to

That's why you ask questions to see if the rules and regulations have been adhered to.

If it becomes apparent that they have not been, you may then threaten to sue.

Too many people threaten litigation as a first response to anything going wrong. Accident simply aren't allowed to happen any more - it has to be someone's fault.

A school near me was sued a few years back because the school gave a child a detention, and the child was attacked on the way home from said detention. Parents tried to argue it was the school's fault. Didn't get anywhere, because the court ruled the parents are responsible for the child's safety once off school property, and they had allowed the child to walk home in the dark. Parents had also signed the detention slip so they knew of and agreed to said detention. Didn't stop them trying to sue.

So just how badly does a child need to be hurt for that school to dial 999?

And why don't they trust the ambo crew?

And lets not forget your 'advice' to the OP was ......

That should make then stand up and be counted,also mention you may be pursuing [s]a claim for a family holiday[/s], compenstation for lack of care by the staff concerned.

As if making demands for money was either going make the girl in question feel better, or cover potential loss of earnings for the little girl. At least you had the good grace to strike through the real reason most folk sue in this sort of senario.

Don't get me wrong - asking to see (or better still, see and be talked through) the policies the school have and discuss the reasoning behind their decision making is a good thing for both parties and might bring up errors of judgement that can be learnt from. But threatening to sue for monetary compensation as a first port of call is in my opinion indicative of a thoroughly naused up world.

Its not threatening, but a legal possibility and a right to be able to claim compensation for others faults or failures in the duty of care expected.

Perhaps advising the school you will be pursuing legal action through a solicitor for distress caused may be better wording.

There has been some nonsense spouted here.

Are there really parents who are too busy/disinterested/important to attend hospital if their child requires assessment/treatment? As for "you broke them, you fix them", really? As a parent you want no input in the recovery of your child?

I have sat holding the hand of a very scared 12 year-old girl, strapped to a backboard, getting an x-ray of her spine. I took the responsibility of asking her if she thought there may be a chance that she was pregnant. Not a question that most 12 y-o girls are comfortable with, despite what you read in the media, and to have been asked it by a total stranger would have added further distress. That was a case where Mum was a long way away and totally unable to attend.

If an accident happens in school, my working assumption is that the parent wants to be involved. If the child is severely injured, 999 all the way, but a less severe, stable injury does not warrant an ambulance, and in my experience, without exception, parents are happy to collect their child from the school. "Meet us at the Hospital." will induce panic in most Mums and Dads. Picking the child up from the school also freaks the kid out less too. Always a child would be made comfortable and fully supervised whilst waiting for the family.

There is also an opportunity for a conversation, maybe brief, but important nevertheless, about the circumstances of the incident, and any steps the school is taking, as well as the early ability to address any concerns or expectations from the parent.

I am a PT Pupil Support in a secondary school. We would have called the parent to take the child to hospital as OP's case. As mentioned above, staff cannot give consent for treatment - the parent is required to do this.

There is no need for consent of treatment in emergency situations the medical professional makes the judgement.

Child Protection: Only one Teacher would be needed there is no need for 2.

Call from remote caller: Makes no odds if they know the location of the incident they're a regular occurrence.

I can't see why a School would think it was Ok to leave a child with a broken arm until a parent could get to them. I've been called to all sorts at schools over the years sometimes the parents are there, other time they've been travelling to hospital to meet us, they've always had a teacher travel with them.

People will sue schools for all sorts of things, I've been in court as a witness in one case. They didnt get any money thougb the little liars despite the nasty injury.

WTF? You need two adults to take a kid with a suspected broken arm to hospital??? What's the point of the CRB / DBS check, then?

with parents an hour plus away the school should have rung the ambulance service and sent a teacher with the kid, however they probably didn't want to stump up for the taxi back hence a kid waiting for a parent to show up

If an accident happens in school, my working assumption is that the parent wants to be involved. If the child is severely injured, 999 all the way, but a less severe, stable injury does not warrant an ambulance, and in my experience, without exception, parents are happy to collect their child from the school. "Meet us at the Hospital." will induce panic in most Mums and Dads. Picking the child up from the school also freaks the kid out less too. Always a child would be made comfortable and fully supervised whilst waiting for the family

Its not threatening, but a legal possibility and a right to be able to claim compensation for others faults or failures in the duty of care expected.

As for "you broke them, you fix them", really? As a parent you want no input in the recovery of your child?

I really should stop making jokes about what is obviously such a serious matter for everyone. If this happened to my daughter, I'd want someone to give me a call and if I couldn't be there ASAP get her to hospital. I don't think that's an unreasonable point of view, though I understand in the current climate with hysteria over paedophilia this could cause problems to the school so they should call an ambulance if they can't do it themselves.

You don't leave a chid sitting about with a broken arm. That's not very clever.

In all fairness, maybe I've missed someone saying otherwise, but as I understood it, the school weren't even sure if it was broken - obviously, if there was bone poking out, blood spraying around and a child screaming in pain, that would be different, but it's definitely a possibility for the child just to be white-faced and sniffling. Mrs Pondo broke her wrist as a child and when she went to her mum (who is a lovely lady and dutiful parent), she just vigourously rubbed it better, to her endless horror and embarrassment. So it might not have been that blatantly clear whether it was an injury worth an emergency call or not.

Big difference between breaking a wrist and breaking an arm, pondo - I should know as it took me 18 months to discover I'd broken my wrist (and both the medical professionals I spoke to before the x-ray reckoned I hadn't). Try that with a broken arm!

Big difference between breaking a wrist and breaking an arm, pondo

To be fair - it depends. A kid I work with broke his arm the half term just gone. In the intervening 36hrs between the accident (faffing around with a skateboard) and diagnosis he assumed 'he'd knocked it a bit', played a knockabout game of football and took part in a swimming competition! His was a fine hairline fracture (and by nature he is dumb as ****/ hard as nails) but does go show the range of pain that encompasses the generic 'broken arm'. We have no way of assessing the 2nd hand info from the op as to how this girl presented to the school.

Yes, which was my point with the story about when I broke my arm.

It's understandable that perhaps they didn't know it was broken, because it's possible to not know. But once it was known that it was broken, then delaying was not sensible.

But [b]once it was known[/b] that it was broken, then delaying was not sensible.

To be honest, I've not been in many schools with their own x-ray machine 😉

For anyone still interested, last night I ran this by a mate who is on the county council H&S team - though not involved with this particular academy as it is outside the council's control.

His view was that the school had taken the worst option - their priority should have been to ensure proper medical attention asap, once they knew that the parents were an hour away, they should have taken the kid to the hospital, which was only 10 minutes away. Two teachers in the car, one to drive, one to keep an eye on the kid, both ensuring no allegations could be made 🙄

Medical consent is technically the doctors problem, rather than the schools, but as the school has responsibility for the children in it's care, unless the parents have given specific instructions to the contrary, a teacher can give consent in the parents absence if it is not appropriate to wait for the parents to arrive.

Now you lot can tell him he is wrong!

He's wrong if the didnt have sufficient staffing.

Mentioned this at school today. Universal response was 999 as is school policy.
Reasons were quicker expertise and arse covering.
Thee are plenty of parents out there who will not leave work for a hospitalised kid. Met plenty of them. 👿

Two teachers in the car, one to drive, one to keep an eye on the kid, both ensuring no allegations could be made