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Sounds more like Dell to me from the locations but regardless I'd have to agree with TJ on this, you're getting shafted for whatever reason and it sounds like you've already done the obvious things to try and resolve the situation so join a union and start fighting back IMO. I usually have a high workload and don't get much chance for holidays but that's mostly my choice, if I had to add hassle with management and shitty co-workers to that I'm not sure I'd hang around long. It's a tricky one if you can't relocate though 🙁
All good advice there mate.
I would add:
Work to Rule is your first move, if you finish at 5, finish at 5. Dig out your contract and see exactly what you have to do. Do nothing more.
Get some counselling via your GP if you can.
Sit down with your wife and make a plan for dealing without your salary for a bit, cancel that Sky subscription, sell a car etc. Her support and involvement is crucial. It is good that you are acknowledging the problem and talking to people.
I would avoid stress or depression on your work record if possible, but there are a zillion things you can signed off for in that cocktail of symptoms you described without any dishonesty.
Good luck.
20k?! Who else read the OP and thought - £60k pa job that, course it's stressful?!
dmiller if you can't make your CV look awesome and get an amazing job in a much better company, then you need someone to check it. 5 years experience at a senior level to 25 employees? In a high pressure environment meeting 2 hour SLAs for EMEA?
Unions won't work, going to HR clearly hasn't - you still have a few choices though -
1. Stay, suck it up, but don't work the hours. Don't throw your toys out of the pram, just leave on time, tell them you have a home life. Detach yourself from the company. Let things go to pot. They can't force you to work over your contracted hours, you're not getting a pay rise or any incentive to stay late, so why do it? It isn't your problem if customer satisfaction goes down cos they are understaffed - you have to understand that it is their problem, and they need to solve it, not you.
2. Hand in your notice and see what happens. Tell them you've got a better job somewhere else paying 30k. They'll probably match it. If they don't then you have a month to go and get a 20k job doing a 40 hour week, retrain if you want, ride your bike and enjoy your family.
3. Proper look for a job - if you're stressed, under pressure and working all the time it's dead easy to say to yourself that you are too busy, don't feel like it or whatever. Believe me, it's like a weight off your shoulders when you update your CV, give it to a recruitment agent (scum though they are) and they tell you they've started to look.
Good luck, you and your wife sound like good people.
60 hours per week x 52 weeks = 3120 hours for £20,000 = £6.41 an hour.
Go and get yourself a no win no fee lawyer. Keep a diary of events, worst case line up a burger flippers job at McDonalds.
You stand to make loads from the company via a tribunal. You would easily compensate for the salary by working in Maccy Dees. All of that with no stress.
Difficult when you are at the coal face, but the reality is that you will do yourself significant harm if you don't do something about this. No CV is worth that. Besides if the company are as you say that will be known in the industry. It will not effect you negatively.
NB: Regardless of what you think shareholders don't like to see their investment paying out large sums of money unecessarily and featuring in negative press coverage. This is internal management, and you cannot deliver sustained profitability like that. They will change at some point, don't hang about till they do though.
20k?! Who else read the OP and thought - £60k pa job that, course it's stressful?!
Everyone who doesn't work in IT, I expect. (-:
I've read this and theres a lot of good advice here. But frankly, it's up to you to take it. All this 'not wanting to make a fuss' or 'how will it make my CV look' stuff is unfortunately you trying to create reasons why you won't take control of it.
Put bluntly, if you don't you'll make yourself even more ill, your wife will leave you, you'll end up properly depressed and eventually jump off a bridge or something. OK, i exaggerate but you need to MTFU and take control now. The first step is the hardest.
Stress and pressure are very closely related. We all work better under pressure. It's when you don't have control that it becomes stress. What you face right now are some very pressurised situations but you can control them if you do the right things now. Again bluntly. You [u]could[/u] close the door tonight on them and just not go back and all that stress will disappear. You'll get a load of different pressures straight afterwards but I guarantee you it will be better than this. But frankly, and I am not an employment lawyer, HR pro or TJ, I'd be taking advice as well on a constructive dismissal type claim and preparing a case for that before taking that step. Because what they are doing to you simply isn't acceptable, and if you can walk out with a reference and a sum to ease you into the next step of your life, that'll reduce the pressures you'll be in next.
Good luck. But please FFS, do something about it NOW. TODAY. It'll make you feel better once you've taken control of it.
+1 what theotherjonv said
(From previous and very bitter exeprience)
theotherjonv - MemberI'd be taking advice as well on a constructive dismissal type claim and preparing a case for that before taking that step.
Absolutely - get real professional advice so you know how strong your claim is - personal injury is possible as well as constructive dismissal. Then you can decide if it is worth pursuing.
D'you know what.
I'm updating my CV tonight, that pep talk could just as easily have been aimed at me.
MTFU Jon. You're far better off financially and mentally than dmiller but that still doesn't make you well off. take control.
You could earn 20K+ stacking shelves in Tesco for zero stress, even if it was just for 6 months, to give yourself time to recover. Seriously - your situation is a sick joke. Just walk. What is the worst thing that can happen? It doesn't sound like they are going to give you a great reference anyway, and job interviews are for explaining your side of what went right and wrong at your last job anyway, so don't worry about it.
Your health is worth more than the job.
there's few feelings as good as the weight lifting off your shoulders as you walk out on a sh1t job.
Having worked for your employer in a management capacity I know a couple of things you can do. Got to HR today and raise a greivance. Use the words "I want to raise a grievance" they have to acknowledge any grievance raised officially even if its total bollox and in your case it won't be. State the facts clearly your contracted hours will be 37.5 plus "extra hours to reasonably support the business" 12 hour shifts everyday is in no way reasonable
It should be easy to prove the extra hours you are working with email's etc. If they have really denied you annual leave when its been reasonably requested then that is even more ammunition. They cannot take action against you while you have a grievance raised.
If they fail to take any action then walk away and seek legal advice for constructive dismissal. I know they are a big company but I also know many people who have successfully sued for constructive dismissal
Apart from taking some legal advice (not necessarily paid for), the 'raise a grievance' is a good place to start - it sounds like like you've tried that already - was it done formally/in writing ? - they have to deal with that in some way (company procedures?) - if they don't then that's in your favour legally. Keep a careful record of what has/is going on and what's been said, if it comes to a tribunal it'll help.
AFAIA, constructive dismissal isn't easy to prove, despite how many people mention it, and you have to be very sure of the circumstances that allow you to use that argument - tho' it sounds like richmtb ought to have some insight. Bear in mind that's it's another form of unfair dismissal - unless there's discrimination involved (race/sex/disability - I think that covers it), all you may be awarded is for loss of earnings between the current job and the next, which may not be a fat lot. In some ways the best you can expect would to be for them to offer a compromise agreement (here's some money because we're terminating your contract unfairly) but how you'd persuade them to do that (working set hours, pursuing grievance, mebbe) I dunno.
My OH wound up with a compromise agreement some years ago after her manager taking her through an unwarranted capability procedure, and trying to overload her with work so she'd crack (not an uncommon approach it seems). She didn't, and eventually the little prick got hr to sort a compromise - fortunately worked out ok (I suspect 'cos their HR were a decent bunch. A **lot** of grief over 6 months tho'...
BTW - taking legal action shouldn't make any difference ot future employers, if they're that concerned about it maybe you don't need to work for them 😉 And if you are signed off for stress - again, be clean with the next employer - a mate's wife wasn't and got marched out when they found it - simply for not being truthful. Regarding references - I think it's difficult for an emplyer not to give you reference, but all it may be (or need to be) is 'yes they worked here for n years...'
there's few feelings as good as the weight lifting off your shoulders as you walk out on a sh1t job.
True. I made it out in March this year after a grim 18 months. Sadly, something from back then has come to bite me on the backside today (so I'm in a whole world of stress again).
Why not look for contracting work, same crap IT stuff, but three times the wages, plus in my experience when you are on contract the customer prefers you to finish at 5pm as any extra hours are billable.
I went from contract to full time at ScottishPower in Glasgow and all of a sudden I was working till ten at night for no reward, just a pile of stress and an unseemly rash onmy hands.
As soon as another contract came up, in Glasgow, I was offski.
It certainly sounds like you are ready for a move, if your wifes income can support you why not take some time out to study, that would be good for the CV, showing that you are motivated to change and develop.
You might as well go to town with raising a grievance as well, make life uncomfortable for them, they certainly dont appreciate you by the sound of it.
[url= http://www.hse.gov.uk/stress/index.htm ][b]This may, or may not be of help[/b][/url]
The HR response was "suck it up or quit"
Appalling unprofessional-ism on their part. They have a duty of care for your welfare at work. Finding yourself crying over work* is not normal so definitely discuss with your doctor. Consistently having to work those hours probably also puts the firm in breach of EU working time directives.
Don't risk you health, happiness, career or family. Be clear about what overtime you are capable of doing, get an employment lawyer, join a trades-union or start looking for a better job!
Good luck
*I've done it myself, more than once.
Its nice talking about the theory of the relative crimes and punishment in respect of your employer, but it will raise the stress and angst even higher and take bloody ages.
Can you survive on just your other half's income? If so, just walk. Its just a job, and a poorly paid one at that. An office administrator can earn 20k. Its not like you're locked into your trade because of salary expectations.
Wow so many responses! Thanks!
First of all I have an appointment with my doctor tomorrow. Once I have seen the doctor I think its time to make (another) formal complaint about my working conditions and the previous lack of support I have been given. This time I will do it in writing so there is a record. My managers manager is over from Ireland tomorrow as well as the team moral is so low he needs to attend meetings about it. (In a recent survey only 1/3 of the team said they would stay if offered another job with the same wages and conditions). I will grab him for a bit and hand the formal complaint to him.
I dont particulary care about sueing them - I just want out.
My wife and I move into a new house on the 20th of August hopefully so I dont think we can afford for me to be out of work, however we can afford for me to work in anything as long as its full time.
So, current plan, hopefully the doctor will sign me off for a month and I can use the first week to chill and the rest to get a job, any job. Also think I might try and get my city and guilds 2382 and work towards being an electrician. Perhaps in the mean time I might be lucky enough to land one of the IT jobs I have applied for, however I think I need to stop hoping that happens and make sure I get any job away from my current employer.
I am also happy (if thats the right word) to see how many people here have been in a similar position. It makes me feel less of a fool to be honest.
Also thanks to the people that have taken the time to email me as well!
OMG! I used to work in hardware support. I could fill several pages explaining some of the injustices and abuse that my colleagues and I experienced. I worked for five different employers and the form with each was pretty much the same. You get seriously flogged! Working 24hrs on the trot happened often, 36hrs was my longest shift.
Employee abuse in hardware roles is prevalent. I would never accept another role in support, ever! The remuneration is derisory and the job takes too much from you, both physically and mentally. It'll get you in the end if you stick around! I did my 20 plus years, someone has to do this.
The reaction from people in this thread is quite typical. "Join a union","you must be on some serious dough to do that" etc. You need to have done the job to understand how it feels to have no personal space. The company intrudes on your every breathing moment and will not give a damn about the effects it will have on you or you family! The fact is you cannot join a union and you will not get decent pay!!
Hardware support never pays anywhere near enough, they will run you into the ground, then tell you you aren't good enough, withold salary increases, lay off much needed team members, etc. I've seen it all before. It's happend to me and it's happened to others, over and over!
As the maintenace revenues have collapsed, volumes of hardware have increased, they now want to pay peanuts ro do more, but the management and sales teams are still on great money, fantastic money! An insult!!
What these greedy souless ****ers don't understand or appreciate, is the talent, intelligence and dedication of their employees working at the coal face! The sort of people who will go the extra mile day after day, week after week, year after year, usually wthout any thanks.
I got a pat on the back for good performance once. They gave me a day trip to Paris on Eurostar (not a stop over, just a day - the tight bastards). I couldn't get a weekend off to take the bloody prize due to standby, scheduled overtime and filling in for engineers in other regions who were off with stress related illnesses. One guy was out working for 24hrs, fell asleep at the wheel and crashed his car on the M25. His boss told him he wasn't up to the pressure of the job! The boss said he was responsible for the hours he worked (funny that! I never had that choice when the pager went off in the middle of the night!). This guy was a good engineer and had a good, professional attitude. He left swiftly. After three months and having a couple of failed chances, i just gave up on the trip to Paris.
Several years later I was refused my annual summer holiday with my wife (she is a teacher too). This was months before the event, but the holiday date was not flexible (arranged for my by my father in-law and a kind of timeshare). As I'd bust a gut for the firm and frequently done overtime for other regions absent engineers and for no pay, given up half my free time (not knowing which half until the last minute), I decided enough was enough. They told me to take my holiday separately from my family!?!? Flexibility is something expected of an employee, a one way street! (considering the times when I had manned an area of 4 men on my own for a month and when not trained). The bullying attitude of the boss was quite unbelievable. HR backed him up, of course! I found that in any dispute, I was always made to feel I was in the wrong, even when I was right. Their polarized attidude only made me resent them even more, but I just got my head down and got on with it.
24 years after taking up the rains, I walked! For three years after, any noise resembling a pager going off made me feel unwell. When I left and started a 9-5 low presure role, it honestly felt like I was on holiday, just because I was having every weekend off. I frequently had 9 week stints witjout a day off, so this was amazing.
I occasionally feel very depressed and regret that i gave so many years of my life for someone else's profit - proper exploitation when it takes up your whole life.
I've since had other jobs where a normal working day (plus an hour or two) is all that is expected of me.
For years I dreamed of a well paid 9 to 5 job , where i had weekends off. It was not to be working for a computer hardware vendor.
My firm advice is get out of it as soon as you can! Retrain, be a teacher, do anything, but hardware support!
If you are genuinely depressed, stressed etc, go sick! Get a note. Stuff worrying about being locked out of the market due to a blemish on your record. You don't want to be employed by these sort of shysters anyaway! Go for constructive dismissal if you can, I regret i didn't, despite people I know urging me to do so!
The fact is you cannot join a union
Of course you can. Everyone has an absolute right to join a union and igf you are victimised for doing so it just puts the empoyers further in the shite
This is why unions developed to stop this sort of abuse - and they are not bad at it.
Not if it is in your contract that you can't join one! In the five companies I worked for, none would tolerate union membership. None of the engineers would stick their necks out to join one either. What you have to realise is the culture in American firms is not like your average UK council, or unionized industry.
STEP 1 - Document / Diary ALL the bullshit.
STEP 2 - Raise a written, formal grievance and let them investigate (speak to ACAS if not a Union member,they can advise and sometimes offer conciliation) and hope employer improves the situation. Insist on written/minuted responses to all communications with employer.
STEP 3 - Follow TJ's advice if no resolution after steps 1 & 2. Speak to Govan Law Centre, Strathclyde University Law Clinic or CAB about issues TJ has raised.
spongebob - its unenforceable term in your contract.
In the UK you have an absolute legal right to join a union. No ifs, no buts, no terms in your contract. Its an absolute right.
Whats more - if more than a certain % of the workforce join one the company has to recognise it and negotiate with it. Absolute legal right.
Companies that bully like you were on the wrong end of rely on cowing the workforce.
Oh and wnen you're done an anonymous phone call to HSE listing non-compliance with H&SAWA 1974 should be suitable and just revenge. Managers can also be personally liable too, criminally not in a civil court. Should engender some managerial stress!
Change jobs. Start looking for the right role rather than eventually leaving with nothing to go to.
My bestmate is currently on Beta blockers because of work. I've asked him numerous times to find a new job but hes wrapped-up/involved in work and with a massive mortgage so hes head down and can't look up 🙁
Here's a simple plan.
Walk out the door and don't go back. Don't spare one nano second of your time to thinking about your old job. Think of the future.
Now you have lost your income. Adjust your expectations of life to suit. There's lots of money that can be saved in the family budget if there is a free adult around to do things like shopping etc.
Your work won't care. Just like they wouldn't care if you dropped dead or broke down completely.
Your family might like it.
Print up some business cards and go looking for wee jobs. If you can't get more than £20k pa freelancing with your obvious qualifications, then somethings wrong. It just won't happen overnight.
Happiness is being your own boss and not being owned by anyone (bank, employer, etc).
Do it now.
Ok so the doctor has signed me of for three weeks!
Been round all the local shops for application forms (even my LBS - I needed a tube anyway 😀 ).
Thanks for the advice everyone!
David.
Well done. Step one complete. I bet you're scared right now, but you feel better already too, don't you?
I spent all day feeling wierd, like I was bunking of school. I feel very guilty to be honest! I did cheer up this evening though, I went down to the shed and pottered about and then played with the RPG on moderm warfare for an hour!
I am currently off sick with stress/depression/anxiety/mania and have been for the last 4 weeks. This is my third time in 5 years but I am bipolar so all part of the illness.
I suspect the guilty feelings/bunking off school is common. Certainly, I feel that way and have had those feelings on previous occasions.
Stress, nervous exhaustion is real, so I would try not to dwell on the guilty feelings.
I think it is a positive sign that you feel guilty. I would interpret that as you have got in there early before things could really get out of control.
I have had two full on breakdowns in the past, probably down to chronic stress but you can never be sure. I know others on here have been through that hell. I am sure we are all in agreement it is not a nice place to be.
Hope you start to feel better over the next couple of weeks.
Best thing that could have happened to you.
I was in a similarly stressful situation at work a few years ago. The only way to deal with it was to get away from it for a bit. In the end I took a weeks leave and after much drinking and feeling sorry for myself I decided to go back into work and quit. It was without doubt the best feeling in the world and has left me with a different attitude towards work(the good jobs are worth putting yourself out for, the sh*te jobs just aren't. Ever). Don't go rushing into things as your situation will undoubtedly be different to what mine was, but do try and spend some time over the next few weeks thinking about what is best for you and, if need be, take drastic action. In my experience there really are more important things than work and stress is more serious than many people think when it comes to long term health.
I stumbled across this thread after throwing a bit of a paddy earlier and it has helped me realise I'm getting over stressed about a few things in my own life right now. I don't doubt that smashing up a fairly expensive back wheel in a fit of rage did help me blow of some steam but by god is it going to cost me to put things right (and the neighbours will probably steer clear for a while!). If only I'd read your posts first I'd have realised I need to chill out a bit more and just deal with the difficult stuff in a more measured way. Stress creeps up on you and you need to look out for the warning signs.
Good luck with it all, things can truly only get better.
Just to thank everyone again. Quit my job this week, I have sorted a job with a large retailer as a salesman (only about £2k wage drop before bonus, should be the same with bonus) and I am starting to feel like a new man.
Interesting enough after my resignation letter I have been invited to attend a formal grievance meeting to discuss it... Also they have banned all swearing in the work place two days after I hand in my notice.
Anyways - I am now free from them. 🙂
You have my sympathy. Important things to do are
1) Keep a record of all contacts with HR and your line management
2) Ask them to give you written reason why things are as they are
3) Go to your local Citizens Advice Bureau and seek guidance on engaging a solicitor that is savvy in employment law
4) Take the solicitors advice,
It is also worth reading the Health and Safety Execs info on stress atwork. It may be helpful to ask your HR dept to look at the case of Walker v Northumberland County Council. This was a landmark case for looking at the stress people experience at work. Walker won one big lump of money
Whatever you do KEEP ACCURATE RECORDS! These will help if it comes to litigation
Look after you in all of this
Go sick with stress and depression for a good long period, enjoy the break and make them see how much they miss you
For me, the most depressing aspect of this case (and many like it) is the way in which the traditional role of HR (or personnel as it would once have been called) has been subverted by companies and organisations throughout both the private and public sectors.
The time was when HR/Personnel Dept staff acted as a vital conduit, bringing together workforce and management, ironed out difficulties and worked towards a common accord. When performed effectively this would result in harmony in the workplace and most likely enhanced performance generally.
In short, everyone won.
These days, experience has taught me that HR are little more than a tool of management. Some kind of quasi-secret police to be used against the rank and file by those in the upper echelons of management.
It's a piss poor state of affairs.
To the OP, glad that everything is on the up for you now.
The time was when HR/Personnel Dept staff acted as a vital conduit, bringing together workforce and management, ironed out difficulties and worked towards a common accord. When performed effectively this would result in harmony in the workplace and most likely enhanced performance generally.
In short, everyone won
Where did you work?
Well, that was the ideal.
My point centres more on the changing direction of HR. There's no intermediary function in the main, they're viewed (and used) by management as a weapon against the workforce. Subsequently, staff are less inclined than ever to go through the official channels as they will very often have little confidence in their HR wing. Indeed, they may well have grounds to fear that it will damage their career to do so.
The time was when HR/Personnel Dept staff acted as a vital conduit, bringing together workforce and management, ironed out difficulties and worked towards a common accord. When performed effectively this would result in harmony in the workplace and most likely enhanced performance generally.
In short, everyone won.
I put in a sick note for work related stress, the only contact I had from my HR dept was a letter 3 weeks later telling me that as I have not contacted them pro-actively my pay will be suspended and I will be disciplined. Thats the only contact my former employers made with me... I know they got my sick note as I got the automated emails telling me that I was marked off sick.
So, so, so glad to be out. So glad.
Also kinda looking forward to this meeting on tuesday. Should be fun, as I can say what I feel as I dont need to go back.
I've learnt to print off hard copies of every single email to and from HR.
Our lot seem to have a knack of getting the IT guys to make 'inconvenient' emails disappear.
It's like 1984!
dmiller - MemberJust to thank everyone again. Quit my job this week, I have sorted a job with a large retailer as a salesman (only about £2k wage drop before bonus, should be the same with bonus) and I am starting to feel like a new man.
Well done. For health sake some companies are really not worth working for especially if they have some mean people/tossers as team leaders, even a low paid job might be far better without inducing negative stress.
Interesting enough after my resignation letter I have been invited to attend a formal grievance meeting to discuss it... Also they have banned all swearing in the work place two days after I hand in my notice.
Keep cool when attending the meeting and depending on your views you can either:
1) Not to tell them your reasons for leaving or simply tell them you want to move on that's all. i.e. do not point fingers at anyone as some might not take it kindly and have families of their own too, so in a way they just have to learn it the hard way and if they wake up they will change if not they will drown slowly. They are in charge of their own destiny now.
2) Tell them everything that is wrong but watch out they might think that it's all your fault and you make no sense at all. To be frank if they cannot see you suffering while there then whatever you are going to say will only be used for filing purposes only. i.e. the HR wants to cover their own back and filing in paper works mean they are following "HR practice". You know all those shite about exit interviews and stuff.
But whatever you do you MUST NOT take it seriously. Saying some like ... "It's not you but it's me" like in the movies. Take it as a joke and have some fun to de-stress yourself during the session and talk some bull craps whatever with plenty of positive spins on it. They love positive spin so give them that as they want to know how good they are.
Anyways - I am now free from them.
But watch out for the next one as they are always plenty of tossers lurking ...
🙂
Glad you got it all sorted out eventually. Sounds like a horrible place to work so I'm sure you'll be loads happier now 😀