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Hi all,
after may another year of unemployment and no other prospects apart from working in OZ or NZ again, i've taken to learning HTML/CSS/Javascript and PHP programming from a book - with my background being straight forward character based 4GL, C, UNIX scripting, huge apps like ERP CRM for 100's of users for like 15 years!
I've realised Javascript is like a dum downed version of C syntax, with tons of Object stuff piled ontop (i like it a LOT!!!) and PHP in bloody well unix shell scripting!!!!!! and the book i'm learning from is
"HTML/CSS, PHP,CSS javascript for DUMMIES" (it also covers DB SQL stuff and AJAX)
so.... my q's
HTML syntax seems really crappy and clunky and i cannot believe that these modern web pages are created by hand like this and then layered with CSS and perhaps some JAVASCRIPT / JAVA plugs (for DB/fancy stuff)
- do you guys use some kind of Development tool for building Web pages from scratch????
- like MS Frontpage, only, better?
- or is it mostly done in Visual Studio C# type stuff?
actually a better question is quite simply, how do you actually Develop?
as i dont know any Web developers...
personally, the way i develop using say 4GL is quite simply,
- create any required DB structures, index's and ensure the data is around that the user needs
- get some kind of similar program or template,
- change + compile repeatedly
- create some kind of unix call script handler and ensure in there is all the checks the DB is up and running, user permissions etc etc
- test and release.
(all wrapped up in some lovelly SDLC documentation speel that the company requires of course)
...and my final Q is, once i've done all the basics from the book where do i go from there? more books - or should i get some kind of proper course certificate from one of the MANY companies that provide training?
much appreciated any help anyone can offer!
thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've realised Javascript is like a dum downed version of C syntax, with tons of Object stuff piled ontop (i like it a LOT!!!)
Javascript is purely object based, EVERYTHING is an object - so no, it's not a ton of Object stuff piled on top. It's also a very powerful, and misunderstood language. Take a look at Douglas Crockfords videos on Yahoo.
PHP in bloody well unix shell scripting
Really? You're not using OO PHP then. Which, I would recommend you learn over purely procedural.
Anyway, onto your questions:
- do you guys use some kind of Development tool for building Web pages from scratch????
Yes, a text editor. That's all you need. You could use an IDE like Eclipse, but a text editor will do just fine.
- like MS Frontpage, only, better?
No, no, no, no
how do you actually Develop?
Really all depends on the job - but a typical job will involve a cms, or framework. So I tend to build the basic functionality first. Take CodeIgniter for example, I build all my models, controllers and views - get them all working and outputting required data. I then move onto the front end and develop the templates with html, css and javascript. Finally I go through and integrate the templates into the framework. Then test.
Normally I work with other developers, so this process can change on a per job basis.
...and my final Q is, once i've done all the basics from the book where do i go from there? more books - or should i get some kind of proper course certificate from one of the MANY companies that provide training?
More books, looks at more source code, more books, more videos - stay away from ALL certificates. They mean nothing in the industry. Except possibly Zend certification. All developers are self taught - it means piling in hours and hours of learning in your own time. Even when you think you've got it down, there's more to learn.
I would echo would prezet said.
I use notepad++ fwiw.
Symfony 2 framework and the new Zend Framework seem to be in vogue, if you want to get ahead of the curve get on these early. I presume you used source control in your previous rolls, if not check out some of the newer dvcs like git mercurial bazar (mostly git though).
Be warned - Javascript LOOKS like C but it's a long way from it. Loosely typed for a start 🙁
Loosely typed for a start
As is PHP to some extent - it has the ability to type cast/check. [url= http://tuxradar.com/practicalphp/3/4/0 ]http://tuxradar.com/practicalphp/3/4/0[/url]
jeeeeez theres OO PHP! hmmm looks like my book isnt that in depth on that (but it is for dummies!)
sorry about the Javascript statement it was not meant to imply its easy - just that it was easy for me to get into as its loosely based on C - and yeah its type handling is pretty loooooose! 🙂
Thanks prezet and others for the input.
Glad to hear i dont have to fork out expensive IDE
On a different note: smaller companies will likely want you to be a jack of all trades delving in DB code and also making things look pretty (asset designing) plus all the layers in between. This is likely varied and interesting.
Larger organisations you are likely to be able to specialise a little more - personally I've not touched CSS or javascript (much) for years as we have a seperate design team who do that for us and I just plug stuff into their html.
So I would generally be working between pl/sql developer for Oracle development and VS2008/2010 for C#/ASP,net development.
Retraining is good, but you may still find lots of people looking for 'experienced' (in that discipline) hires.
Still, you are clearly capable of picking up new skills so I wish you luck in finding an intersting job. As for 'training houses' I'd bin them off in favour of developing some demo sites, something for a friend who wants a site building.
Also inf you are interested in PHP then have a dig into the Magento framework.
Enjoy!
This is a fairly good book introducing OO PHP, however, I recommend learning the basics first before delving in:
[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/PHP-Object-Solutions-David-Powers/dp/1430210117/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321461664&sr=1-1 ]http://www.amazon.co.uk/PHP-Object-Solutions-David-Powers/dp/1430210117/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321461664&sr=1-1[/url]
is Brainbench any good for a form of certification - I remember some banks asking me to take one of its tests...
Make sure that the books you are using are up to date - the accepted way of crafting web pages has come along way in a relatively short space of time. All of the fancy stuff on the web should be done in css and javascript.
Find some decent decent blogs - I like http://www.alistapart.com and http://www.smashingmagazine.com/ for decent design and coding tips.
Get a decent grounding in how to craft nice web pages, but given your background I would suggest looking at developing web applications, using something like asp.net MVC (focusing more on the backend)...
edit - MS usually have Express editions of their development software for free download.
Also inf you are interested in PHP then have a dig into the Magento framework.
Isn't Magento a e-comm app rather than a framework?
But yeah I agree with toby1 - you need to be a bit of a 'jack of all trades' if possible. Specialise in one area if you can, but keep an eye on everything else that is going on around you, like HTML5, CSS3, server-side javascript etc.
I tend to focus on front-end development, however I do write PHP, MySQL and tinker with Apache too. I'm no master in these areas, but I know enough to know what's going on, and how to do what I need. If I was to recommend a basic skill set for getting a job in the industry it'd be:
HTML4 (with a basic understanding of HTML5 at the moment)
Javascript (and jQuery too - most companies now just rely on jQuery, but it's good to know under the hood)
CSS2 (learn the basics before moving onto CSS3)
PHP5 / .NET
MySQL5 - or similar DB for .NET
That's a fairly large skillset to learn off the cuff - so if you already know you want to work on the server-side, focus on PHP and MySQL.
I was shocked to see that the OP was so recent!!
this is what exactly what i needed to know. thanks everyone.
Charliemungus: aye, missed the boat in year 2000 and stuck with really old school transactional C/unix stuff, then could not find much work after that, moved into 4gl , then that dried up quick here in UK, so went abroad for a number of years and let my skills come obsolete while working for a huge company thinking i was safe from the world downturn.... still i'll have a state pension to keep me warm in winter ... wont i ? 🙁
Speaking from recent experience finding decent C# developers who don't expect to be paid the earth is not an easy task, perhaps we are just in the wrong area for it but it suggests there aren't lods of them kicking round on the dole!
Speaking from recent experience finding [b]any[/b] C# developers is not an easy task
FTFY....
jquery jquery and jquery
Ditch the HTML side and concentrate on server side, PHP/SQL/etc IMO.
Speaking from recent experience finding any C# developers is not an easy task
[i]*waves*[/i]
Currently writing C#, C++ (spit), Managed C++ (double spit), C (yay!), VB.Net (urgh) and VBS (uuuuurgh!) all in the same project (large scale, safety critical medical device)
- do you guys use some kind of Development tool for building Web pages from scratch????
- like MS Frontpage, only, better?
- or is it mostly done in Visual Studio C# type stuff?actually a better question is quite simply, how do you actually Develop?
as i dont know any Web developers...
I use Visual Studio to develop web applications using either c#.net or vb.net (legal profession, so integration/interoperability with MS Office and an MS-dominated backoffice is nearly always a key requirement) but I'm not particularly attached to it. The 2010 version is pretty good though, and I use AJAX all over the place.
Currently getting to grips with MVC and JQuery, not sure what to make of them yet. Its a constant juggling act balancing the progression of skills and technologies with having to get projects built and delivered, but that's what makes it interesing IMO.
Most of what I do is driven by the database and the 'back end' rather than the front end, so that's where everything starts.
A typical development project starts with meetings to define what we want to come up with, a series of scribbled drawings which become a basic plain English definition/scope document with a simple flowchart, then a database schema, database objects to manipulate data, quick bit of data testing, then application classes to make use of these objects (either just called from an existing rich class library which has evolved over a few years or created as needed), then actual web pages using html, css and Javascript that call the functions in the classes, then testing within the development team, any revisions required, then the creation of a test plan, then user acceptance testing, then any further revisions, then launch.
At least that's how its meant to go - in reality, someone will promise a client it'll be ready by Monday and we go from development team testing to launch and cross our fingers.
As someone who recruits and manages web developers, I don't mind admitting that I don't particularly enjoy recruiting developers, as its hard from a CV and two interviews to get a good idea of someone's strengths as anyone can pretty much claim anything and some brilliant developers interview appallingly and some appalling developers interview brilliantly!
I'd say that someone with strong relational database skills who can talk knowledgeably about them and recognises the importance of them in application development (at least for the sort of development I need to have done - development is a very wide field so this isn't always the case) is off to a good start.
Its good to have a varied range of skills but avoid presenting yourself as a jack of all trades who's done everything. It can be tempting to do that - especially if you do have an extensive career history - but generally people are looking for candidates with strengths in a few key areas and couldn't care less if you thought COBOL was better than FORTRAN. Find out what these areas are before applying for things (or at least before interview).
Don't get too hung up on not having much in the way of recent experience - bright people who are keen and willing to ask for help become good with these technologies pretty quickly.
Good luck!
Its good to have a varied range of skills but avoid presenting yourself as a jack of all trades who's done everything. It can be tempting to do that
[i]*waves again*[/i] 😳
Take a look at Douglas Crockfords videos on Yahoo.
Seconded. And buy his book too.
And if you become proficient in JS, then consider looking at mobile app development with platforms like Titanium / PhoneGap etc.
Any reason the OP isn't sticking with C by the way? It is still in pretty high demand, especially in the embedded sector.
My 2p as a lapsed coder.
HTML is a markup language, not a programming language. It's been expanded and hacked and generally buggered about with in order to keep it useful in 'web 2.0' (ugh) days, and it shows. However, as a result it's remarkably easy to pick up.
It's critical to know how it all hangs together because you'll need to understand it when it inevitably breaks or does something random. As background learning, HTML is step one, however you'll rarely be hand-coding HTML from scratch in any sort of practical situation; no-one these days starts a website by opening up Notepad, saving as index.htm and then typing <HTML> <HEAD> etc.
From there, the world's your mollusc. There's the JS / PHP / Python / et al route if you want to hand-roll code, but a huge amount of basic stuff has been done and it's often faster to tweak existing free code than write your own (though of course you'd still need an understanding of the language to change and integrate that). For instance, you'd almost certainly never go and write your own forum software; you'd go and get phpBB or vBulletin or something, and spend your time customising the nadgers off it instead (maintenance coding, woo).
Alternatively, 'rapid deployment' websites are very prevalent at the moment. Rather than writing lines and lines of code (and reinventing the wheel), systems like Joomla and Drupal are popular and skills with these are in demand. There's still a lot of development work to be done and they can be quite complex under the hood so there's something to get your teeth into; if your interest is in database-driven web applications then this might be a more immediately rewarding use of your time.
So, yeah. I'd say that getting a handle on languages is essential, but with modern web dev you'll probably be spending a fraction of your time actually hacking code.
As for IDEs, back in 'the day' I eventually migrated from Notepad to HomeSite, which was bloody tremendous. Homesite is long dead (thanks a lot, Adobe) but the Phoenix from its ashes is TopStyle. Worth a look. Alternatively, Notepad++ is also very good, and free. Both products do language-based colour-coding to make html, JS etc easier to read. I used to develop a site which had server-side VBScript embedded inline inside client-side JavaScript, and I would surely have gone (*)mental but for HomeSite lighting it up for me.
Caveat: I've not done webdev in some time, so if someone contradicts me, they're right and I'm wrong. (-:
(*) - more
Joomla and Drupal
Popular, but probably 2 of the worst CMS's to exist IMO.
GrahamS, there are plenty of c# developers, but they've all got jobs!
2tyred, there will be a point at which MVC will click, and you won't want to ever go back to webforms again...
Popular, but probably 2 of the worst CMS's to exist IMO.
Perhaps. But, in demand.
What would you say is better?
GrahamS, there are plenty of c# developers, but they've all got jobs!
I probably won't have by the end of March (when my contract ends).
If anyone in the Newcastle area is looking for a senior software engineer with 13 years experience... 😉
Perhaps. But, in demand.What would you say is better?
Depends if you enjoy bashing your head against a wall for a living.
Maybe checkout the JavaScript framework jQuery - that'll help you doing stuff.
The real key to web dev stuff is styling it these days so try and get a good grip of CSS.
Don't get too caught up in bleeding edge stuff. Most companies are still potentially supporting earlier versions of IE (we make sure out stuff works in IE6). Before anyone shouts, if you want to turn away £10,000,000 of income (actual figures) from IE6 users then go ahead, we're happy to take it off you.