[Closed] Puppy buying advice

We got our cockerpoo via an ad on Pets4Homes. Spoke to the breeder and was on the phone for a good 1 1/2-2 hours just talking about dogs; she wanted to know what experience we had, what we wanted etc and she was just very pleasant. Had called a couple of other people and they just didn't give me a good feeling.

Went to see said puppy and got to meet 'mum' (first pre-requisite) and she showed us photos and paperwork for 'dad'. From there we just went with our gut - she said she had two bitches and bred them in turn so wasn't just churning out as many litters as possible from each one and that she only ever looked to breed when she had a full waiting list. Our pup just happened to come from a slightly larger litter.

Again, we were at her house 2 hours at least. Mum was obviously very well looked after and just curled up with our little boy, the other puppies were all very active, house was nice and well presented etc.

Breeder could also produce all the various certificates to confirm both mum and dad were free of any of the genetic diseases that can affect cockerpoos (PVA etc) together with the Kennel Club certs to show mum and dad were both pedigree etc.

Really just treat it like you would buying a car - I know that sounds a bit odd but kick the tyres so to speak and ask to see all the paperwork, chat to the owner about their history, why they breed and just chuck in some small talk. If they are keen to hurry you into a decision or get you out of the house (or don't let you visit the house) walk away. If it doesn't feel right walk away. There's plenty more pups in the sea :).

And of course pics if you do get one.

Personally I'd avoid pets4homes and look for a genuine breeder by talking to other owners of the breed that you are interested (be it online or face to face).

Check out The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey. Loads of helpful advice. It's served me well with two dogs over the last 13 years.

Nothing wrong with Pets4Homes per se. Plenty of genuine breeders on there just as you can end up at a puppy farm via word of mouth. Just need to filter the noise either way.

What breed of dog is it ? Reason I ask is if it’s a pedigree dog your first port of call should be the breed club. They will be able to guide you to a list of accredited breeders and what to look for health test wise. Note that I said health test and NOT health check. Some breeders try and fob people off saying that both parents have been health checked. All that means is a vet has checked that they have four legs and two ears. A reputable breeder tests for any genetic faults in the bloodlines of both parents that could be passed on into the puppies, causing problems as they get older. Hip (and sometimes elbows and eyes) should also be assessed and scored accordingly. The breed co efficient should also have been carried out by the breeder. Basically this means how close the bloodlines are, the lower the score the less interbreeding has gone on. (Which can cause no end of problems health and temperament wise)
Although I know of no reputable breeders using pets4home to sell their litters it wouldn’t surprise me if some do. I would however be very suspicious of anyone selling litters on there. This is why I’d recommend getting in contact with a breed club, they will have a puppy co-ordinator who will point you to breeders with good ethics

Thanks both. I am cautious about ‘buying off the internet’, but assumed pets4homes is just a post board rather than an actual seller, so visiting the actual breeder is the main thing obviously. No doubt there are dodgy people on there but treating pets4homes as the intro to a breeder and exercise the best vetting practices once I meet them and the pup in person hence the request for advice.

As excited as we all are there are plenty more pups in the sea so not going to jump on the first one we meet. Everything’s has to be right.

I'd avoid Pet4Homes too. Is there a breed club for the breed you are thinking of? They are a good point of call for being put in touch with a good breeder. I'm involved with a breed club and I know that none of the well respected breeders use that site. It's pure word of mouth or the odd post on the club page.

Apart from the usual caveats of seeing the pup with Mum etc I'd fully expect as much questioning of me from the breeder to ensure themselves that the pup was going to a suitable home. If that didn't happen, I'd walk.
Ask about any testing of the pups for breed prevalent conditions. Also health of parents.

We got our pup off Pets4Homes. Local breeder of bulldogs who show seriously, but had a single litter of dachshunds. I’ve got no problem with buying off Pets4Homes as was just a means to see what the breeder had to offer.

Made a big difference that they were local so went three times to see him before finally picking up at 10 weeks (I think it was, crap at remembering things like that). As others have said, spend time talking to them, see the pup with mum and siblings in the natural environment. The first time we went we spoke with them for a good hour about their breeding approach, how they’ve raised the mum, what was the dad like, what they feeding him and so on. We’ve even been back a couple of times as needed him to stop for a few nights when we had to go abroad and didn’t want to kennel him so they were happy to house him. As with many things there are good and bad people at what they do. Just need to sift out the crap ones.

pets4homes is for dogs as autotrader is for cars......except the selling of dogs isn't regulated in the same way as trade sellers of cars.

As above - use it to locate potentials but then do your research properly and if it feels wrong walk away (don't go)

The scam we have heard about when looking for ours (6 years ago mind) was of litters from puppy farms then being placed in family homes for the selling bit.

If the breeder is a genuine lover of their dogs, has a good breed line then expect the Spanish Inquisition as they probably have more people interested than dogs. If they seem to be too quick to take the money without asking about the puppy's welfare, I would worry.

Good breeders will also happily take their own dogs back if there's a problem.

One of our breeders only breeds 2-3 litters from each dog - any more isn't good for the dog.

I have learnt a lot from the Facebook groups for a breed I am interested in, they talk regularly about breeders, pricing and what's going on.

It's the only fb group that just talk about dogs in a polite way, q refreshing really.

One of our breeders only breeds 2-3 litters from each dog – any more isn’t good for the dog.

Forgot to mention this, definitely worth checking. Our pups mum was retired after two litters, him being from the last.

"she said she had two bitches and bred them in turn so wasn’t just churning out as many litters as possible from each one and that she only ever looked to breed when she had a full waiting list."

Sounds like she is!

Do they have a land line? Lots of open source research can be had if they do. We got our boy off a gumtree and this year. Followed by a lot of research...

My sister got a lab fro a reputable breeder, poor dog had really bad stomach issues for over a year, so ensure that insurance is valid. He was poorly a cuple of weeks after coming home. Wuld have cost a bomb.

We have FIVE cats, Rescue from a charity.. cost us £1k to fix.. the 3 pedigrees, nowt, altough I fell over at what MrsF paid or a cat or three.

We used Pets4homes for our recent family addition, Ollie, a couple of weeks ago

We sifted out to get local area and well worded adds then spoke to a few sellers and visited some. Once we decided on the best option we had a long chat with the folk, saw the litter and the mum, and all the paperwork. Also called the vets who had done first vaccinations a few days before and googled the sellers home address, scoured FB, Insta etc.

All stacked up and we picked him up a few days later. He’s been with us now for 10 days and is doing well. Bloody hard work, vets on Thursday for second vaccination and then hopefully some proper outside training by New Year.

Oh, costs more than many a bike too.. 🙄

thanks for advice so far. will ensure I follow up with vet and parent dog credentials. The breeder says it's all there for me to look at when we visit.

Don't mention the costs though. Was going to hold out to see if the covid premium subsides, but no idea how long we'd be waiting for now so just decided to bite the bullet. As a family we've been talking about it for so long now and the main blocker has been the wife and I office working, but now that is going to change going forward as the company I work for has sold the office building I worked in and the building we have been moved to doesn't have enough capacity for everyone, so will have to partially work from home after Covid, and the wife's contract has changed to include 50% wfh, that is the final piece to fall into place.

Whatever you do don’t get a lab.

They get into your life and become the best mate you have ever had. If your lucky they will do multi Munro days with you and sleep in Bothys, they will swim in the sea with you on north uist, grrrrr at you when you are at the bar until you share some of your beef with them.

And suddenly they are gone.

Find your puppy from the best place you can and have a great time with your new best mate.

Monty has been gone 5 years and I miss the bugger every day

“she said she had two bitches and bred them in turn so wasn’t just churning out as many litters as possible from each one and that she only ever looked to breed when she had a full waiting list.”

Sounds like she is!

I perhaps didn’t explain that properly. She bred one one year and the other the next so each one got a year off between litters. She retired them from breeding when they were 5 or 6.

I know someone always pops up on threads such as these and suggests going down the rescue route and this time it's going to be me!
Rescue dogs are better in every way imo.
I've got a Rommie rescue. I took her in as an emergency foster but have adopted her now. She is amazing. She is super friendly with people and other dogs. Needed a bit or reassurance for the first few weeks but then decided she loves everybody.
She was listed as 14 on the website so had very little chance of finding a home but she's actually more like four. She just seriously run down and needed a bit of tlc and some veterinary care.
I don't have kids so that obviously makes it easier for me but I'm far from some kind of dog whisperer or anything like that. She's only my second dog. I lost my first in June and there'll never be a day that goes by when I don't miss her.
Anyhow, just something to think about. But I'd think really carefully before going to a breeder. The only good reason to breed is to improve the line of the breed which means any cross breeder is not doing it for the right reasons imo.
Money is the big driver at the moment. Puppy farmers are often professional con artists and it's easy to be conned however careful you think you're being.
My sister has a cross breed. Lovely dog by all accounts. But he almost certainly came from a puppy farm or one step away from a puppy farm. She is now thinking of breeding from him because he's a "good dog". What she really means is that he is adorable and a lovely family pet but that is no good reason to breed. If he sired a litter of eight pups, I'd bet at least half of them would end up in rescue at some point in their life.
Anyhow, I'm not sure this post will make me popular but I just hope it makes people think about going the rescue route.

Edited to say: Try asking on the Pet Forum website, OP.
Some of the posters are a bit objectionable and there's a good number of gammons on the site but the long standing members have a really good knowledge of dogs and breeding.

Lots of good advice above. My twopence worth is to be patient, do a lot of research into the breed/breeder and be prepared to travel the length and breadth of the country for the right dog.

We found getting a rescue dog impossible (dogs trust) and didn’t like the breeders on oets4homes. So we got a list of working cocker KC licensed breeders then phoned around for a breeder we liked then put our name down for a puppy, then went to visit twice in a 6 hour round trip.

We’ve had Maple now for 4 months and couldn’t be happier with her.

Make sure what you're buying is actually what is being sold, I know it sounds daft but the B-I-L has just been done over royally, I'm finding it kind of funny if I'm honest as he can be a bit of a bull$h!tter sometimes. He was sold a Beagle, from what he says is a KC registered Beagle breeder, for some reason he got it at 12 weeks and not 8, now a few weeks down the line it turns out it's a Pointer / Beagle cross 😀 we'll never get the full story, but beware as with anything in life there are some total shysters out there.

We got a lab 5 months ago, probably not the best time to buy a puppy as all the prices rocketed, we initially went to see a "reputable breeder" found off Pets4Homes and he was a total knob, the wife went with the kids (8, 6 & 4yr old boys) and as she turned up he opened the cages the dogs were kept in and a dozen labs came bounding towards them, obviously the kids were a tad scared. They picked one in the end and paid a deposit, ready to collect in 2 weeks. On the way home he phoned the wife and said he wasn't going to allow us to have the dog as the kids were scared of the (pack of) labs, imagine that! We had to chase a bit to get the deposit back.

We did find one, rather fortunately via a friend of a friend who recommended a guy who had just had a litter, proper above board KC reg and from working dog stock on one of the local estates near here. Granted he was a tad pricey, but is full KC reg, all the required papers and tests as mentioned above, like hips, genetics etc and he's a lovely dog (never thought I'd say that as before this I never really liked them) spends most of his time sat with me in my office, sleeping and trumping his way through the day - that's when he's not running round at a million miles an hour chasing fresh air and trying to eat everything in sight.

TBH I'd wait for six months - or even four - as things will calm down and there may be a lot of rescue dogs suddenly available!
Friend (admittedly not the most worldly person) got scammed out of a couple of hundred deposit yesterday so can confirm there are some take-the-money-and-run scammers on pets4homes RN.

Dogs Trust has got a list of charities you can foster dogs for on their website (old people in hospital, families fleeing DV etc who can't have their pet for a while).

Up to you though - I do get the strong desire for a dog as I was the same 🙂 but if you can let your head get a look-in that's preferable 😀

Monty has been gone 5 years and I miss the bugger every day

Time for a new one surely? The year I was unemployed was all the longer as we had to take the dog to the vets for the last time at the start and no new one until I had a new job.

We're aboit to start seriously considering getting a dog.

I've said on other threads that people should get rescues but **** me it doesn't look easy if you've never had one before.

Any top tips for actually getting a rescue dog?

If you are not sure about buying one, perhaps you could Foster one first?

We went through this process earlier in the year.
Found a likely candidate on Pets4Homes but it was a farm in Wales which was a long way for us to make an inspection visit so instead we spoke to the breeder a few times and she supplied pictures.
She mentioned she was licensed with the local council and a quick google search soon confirmed that, also found her planning application for the kennels! Also checked out it was a proper working farm again online.
Once we decided to take it further she supplied weekly videos of our dog and did lots of little thing like used his name for training and both the mum & dad were onsite.
It turned out to be a lovely farm with a really nice large paddock attached to the barn/kennel and she insisted on following all the covid rules to the letter and everything turned out well.
We've ended up with a rather bonkers but lovely 7 month old Beagle that is full of energy but does have a problem with wind 🙁

On the other hand................
because of the distance we did look locally and found one 8 miles away. Did a Facetime but didn't really like the look of the surroundings as it looked like a shed with no outdoor access (and he kept himself behind the camera). We agreed we were interested but wanted to visit and see the mum before parting with a deposit to which he declined however we insisted and a visit was arranged for the next day.
One hour before our visit he cancelled saying his wife had taken the mum out for a walk and that he had other people interested so it was immediate deposit or he would sell it, we refused and told him to get lost. He then confirmed it was sold.
2 days later he phoned back and said it was available again because the buyer had a child that was allergic to the puppy (a story you will hear often we found out) - we told him to get lost again and after a couple more calls he finally got the message.

So my advice is don't just dismiss a "farm" because some of them are genuine - do your research and you should be ok.

joshvegas, some rescues are ridiculous with their demands but I think many just want you to have put a bit of effort in. Make sure your garden is secure. Make sure you have time for the dog and the time it will be left alone is reasonable (people will disagree with me but a few hours a day and you'd have to build up to that). Have plans in place for what would happen in a crisis. Think about what you'd do for holidays.

Try looking on Dogsblog. It's a site where loads of rescues advertise.

After that, my advice would be to treat every prospective dog like a job interview. I mean, have a look around, find one you like, then do some research based on what they say.
For instance, would you take a reactive dog? If so, do some research on fear reaction in dogs and have a chat with a local rewards-based trainer before you enquire about the dog.
Dog with separation anxiety. Read up on it and let the rescue know you take it seriously and will work with them and the dog to help the dog get over it.
Read up on brain training. If you're an active person, it's easy to over exercise dogs and brain training, getting them to do puzzles and the like, search activities, working things out activities are essential really if you've got a clever dog. Physical activity is important too of course but often they need their brain tiring out.

I think you're based in the Borders and I'll make the assumption you would want an active dog. Have a look here:
https://www.borderspetrescue.org/product/milo-5/
I think he looks fab but not for everyone obviously.

If you go down the dogs from overseas route, there are loads on FB and many advertise on Dogsblog too. Rommie rescues can be challenging from what I know but mine's been a dream. I think the description of the dog is usually more accurate than it was with mine too! It's a wonderful thing to see a dog who really has got nothing to live for become happy and content and finally, whatever their age, have the chance to have a puppyhood of sorts at least.

Anyhow, good luck whatever you decide. I think it's brilliant you asked btw. I didn't do enough research before I got my first dog and the rescue didn't help. She was fear reactive but I wasn't told - they would have rehomed her to anyone. I had to learn pretty fast but it could have been so much better if I'd understood fear reaction and known what to do beforehand.

Rescue, rescue, rescue, rescue.

There are so many dogs (and puppies) in rescues up and down the land in desperate need of a loving home, why would you not? The right dog is never the wrong breed.

Thanks. I’ve seen enough puppy threads on here to know it’s important to make sure you do your research. Was going to see one on the 27th but someone is going to see her tomorrow, so may miss out on that one but didn’t want to put a deposit down blind without seeing the dog first and being sure it was one for us. I’m not getting onto a competition with other prospective owners and if we miss out on this one so be it.

As above re rescues.

Try Manchester Dogs home - bloody brilliant. We got 6year old Bert from them just over two years ago - he is absolutely the same dog as they described. The people there are full time and get to really know the dogs character and personality. We don't have a garden - there reply was "good - at least you'll take it for a walk rather than it having a quick poo in the garden", other dogs homes wanted garden's.
I do between 6 and 10miles a day with him.

Bert was a stray and thought to be a Malamute/Collie cross - we did a DNA test and he turns out to be a rare purebred Karelian Bear Dog.

There are too many dogs out there that need love without encouraging scum breeders and their cashing in prices. Bert was the best £130 I've ever spent on anything.

<br />photo url<br />

@RustyNissanPrairie - I second Bert being an immense dog. I’d happily have stolen him off you if I didn’t think he’d have had my arm 😂

Bert for PM!

Much awesomeness

Thanks!-
He was in Manchester Dogs home for four months which is a long time for them so he was pretty unloved.

I'm not a 'dog whisperer' but with lots of love and consistency he has turned out great from day one.
Friends have a similar success story with a Spanish dogs rehoming charity and their Andalusia Sheep Dog.

Another for rescues from this new poster.

Archie came to us initially as a foster, then lockdown hit and the inevitable happened.
They can be as much work and effort as a puppy to be fair; when he came to us he was a really anxious dog due to mistreatment. He's come a long way, much more relaxed now.

RustyNissanPrarie, Bert is an awesome dog! Absolutely gorgeous. I know it's not the point but I'd hate to think what he would have cost from a breeder!

As for asking the breeder questions about the pup, it's kind of missing the point. It's not only about that one specific pup. It's about the dogs kept in cages while they wait for someone to buy them. It's about the dodgy mating practices where the dogs have to be helped by humans to mate. It's about the poor bitch who is forced to go through whelping at least once, often multiple times, and then often times gets chucked out of the only 'home' she's known when she gets too old to produce pups. It's about the other members of the litter which weren't so lucky as your pup. It's about those who might not be considered perfect and who the breeder can't sell and end up in rescue (if they are lucky) for someone to deal with. It's about filling up shelters with yet more unwanted dog (in time). It's about denying a dog in rescue of a potential home.
Dog breeding as a rule is a vile business and imo at least should not be encouraged.
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem, as far as I'm concerned.
And just for balance, I'm part of the problem on loads of things. Drive a petrol car, have a log burner etc etc.

[quote="ThePilot"]Lots Of Sensible Stuff
Well said. I can bet you anything you like it'll be ignored though..

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ThePilot
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RustyNissanPrarie, Bert is an awesome dog! Absolutely gorgeous. I know it’s not the point but I’d hate to think what he would have cost from a breeder!

We have no idea where he came from - there are no breeders in the UK, I have only found one other KBD in the UK since and that was also a stray. They are the national dog of Finland. I'm only saying this as a note that dogs homes aren't just full of Staffies/Husky's/once fashionable dogs. Our friends rescue Andalusia Sheep Dog is also a stunning dog.

Milo looks ace. Not sure about the size as there is a slight history for my other half with bigger dogs and we have a wee flat (groundfloor door straight out to secure garden and all the non livestocked fields of the borders to play in.

I just want a dug to be part of the family. Holidays etc already cleared with the parents. Its really just about working out how/if we will be a good home.

Bert looks ace.

Some good advice on here. I would go rescue every time. When ever I hear of first time owners getting a Beagle I have a slight chuckle then wish them the best of luck. It’s like getting triplets the first time you have kids! Bear looks a fantastic hound. There are some great dedicated rescue societies for specific breeds with a wealth of knowledge on those breeds and any specific problems they may have.

When ever I hear of first time owners getting a Beagle I have a slight chuckle

I concur, we had one as our second dog. NEVER. EVER. AGAIN.

Lol, don't leave us hanging. I want to hear stories about Beagles.

My rescue is recovering well after getting sick. She's originally from Bosnia and has just got to 9 months old. Had she stayed there, she'd probably have been euthanised or starved by now.

It took a while to find a rescue and to be accepted, many rescue places are thorough because they don't want to see the dog back with them a few months later.

I've wanted a dog for years, she's turning out to be a really lovely dog too, she's smart, well natured around people and other dogs and I've fallen hard for her.

Puppies are all well and good, but I'm happy I waited it out and went with a rescue.

Action aid for Animals on Facebook was the sauce, for reference.

Well, first time in car today since bringing him home 12 days ago, with a trip to local vet this morning for his second set of jags.

Ollie was 10 weeks old the other day and has been just given a thorough check over and all is in order (I had checked with the sellers vet who did first jags and inspection too, but nice to be doubly sure).

Totally unphased with it all and now back with his toys 😁

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Beagles: my next door neighbours got one as a first dog. It was bonkers. So they got another one to keep it company. Now I have two insane beagles living next door, howling whenever they are left alone, barking when anything passes, by the sound of them through the wall they do laps of the living room whenever anyone is home, they chase and attack each other in the garden all summer long, and both are muzzled on walks.

If you like your neighbours, don’t get a beagle.

@jambourgie

Dug the carpet up in the living room to eat the underlay.

Unable to return when called despite many, many hours of training over the years we owned him. Could manage walking to heel on the lead though EVERY lamp post, garden wall corner, signpost upstand and phone cabinet had to be sniffed for as long as possible (10 seconds was all I would allow).

Dug up the garden.

Knocked birds out of the air regularly if they took off within 15 metres of him.

Escapologist. No garden was proof to his talents (this caused his death as he got out on the road un-noticed one evening and was knocked down by a car).

Thick as mince (worse than any subsequent Dalmatian and that's going some) unable to think anything through.

Did I say he was a fast runner! He loved to chase other dogs while belling or get bigger dogs to chase him until they fell over due to turning circle diameter and weight distribution physics. Many a Rottweiler though it would have him only to thump down due to physics.

Locked us out of the house by sitting up against the front door and pushing the lower bolt home!

He was good with children, the Corgi and enjoyed a cuddle. Other than that very, very hard work.

Beagle: escape artist. Could jump a 6’ garden fence and would bugger off for hours or days at a time. Often got calls from local farmers or other residents reporting on her location. Would turn back up covered in all manner of vile things looking extremely pleased with herself.
Would also disappear on walks if she got a scent. Then either reappear or just head home on her own.
She’d eat anything too, the stinkier and decomposed the better.  Then throw it up. Then eat it again. Then throw it up and repeat....

Once chased a bird straight off the side of a bridge over a river and ended up in the water about 15’ below, no idea how that didn’t injure her, she just swam to shore (on the opposite bank to where she needed to be) and then ran off across the field she was in to roll in cow poo.

We had her for 16 years and I loved her dearly but I’d never ever have another.

Im sure there was a story on here a few years ago about someone’s beagle eating their neighbors parrot...

Had forgotten the rolling. Our cottage holiday in The Dales was enlivened by rolling in a very dead something on day one. The rest of the time the field walks provided a smorgasbord of animal faeces to graze upon. Every return to the cottage was preceded with the shout of don't let him lick you/don't touch him!

Iainc, this is not really aimed at you because you already have your pup and I sincerely hope he has a long and joyous life with you and your family. He certainly looks a lovely pup.
But the OP asked for puppy buying advice. So this is for the OP and others thinking of buying a puppy.

What the vet will have done I suspect is little more than confirm the pup has two eyes and four legs. I mean, how thorough an examination can take place in the 10-minute slot vets are usually given to see an animal? I don't doubt vets go into the profession wanting to help animals and do their best for them. But many find themselves caught up in an industry - and it is an industry - where their primary objective is to make as much money possible for shareholders. The owners of these practices often aren't vets at all but investors looking to make money and the veterinary surgeon is beholden to them. They often own large numbers of practices too which creates competition amongst different practices and makes it easier to set targets across the board. It therefore becomes in vets' best interests for animals to be born with health problems. Hard to believe I know after your encounter with the friendly vet but this is the truth of the matter. Of course some practices are better than others and some vets less affected by the demands of their bosses to make money regardless of whether it is the best interest of the animal than others.

And independent vets aren't necessarily the answer either. I took my first dog to an independent vet. I really thought I was doing the right thing. I really thought they were helping her. That was until they sent me the clinical notes by accident and it was pretty evident that they were not. Not only that but it turns out they'd missed a really serious condition which led to her death. I had to practically beg them to let her go in the end - there's no more money in a dead dog and no glory for the vet.
I also used to take her to a vet physio. The vet-turned-vet-physio said she left the industry because she was sick of lying to people and handing out drugs that the animals didn't need. The vet nurse-turned-vet-physio there said she'd left as she was sick of seeing badly bred dogs pts when the insurance money had run out.

That's one reason why it's important to get health tests done on dogs. These are done on the parents before any breeding takes place resulting in hopefully healthy pups. For instance, labs are prone to hip dysplasia. If you can breed that out and create a line of labs that don't suffer with that painful condition, then that makes sense to me. I'm not breeder and never will be but I can see the sense of breeding in that way.

On that note, what would you have done if your vet had said there was a problem with your pup? Sent it back to the breeder? If so, there is a high chance it would have ended up in rescue. Or worse. A significant number of breeders are in it to make money and they are not going to spend money on treating a pet, despite the fact that they are responsible for its creation.

As I said in an earlier post, it's also not only about your pup. I also wonder how long it will be before Ollie's mum is pregnant again. With prices skyrocketing I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is not long at all. Catch the Easter market.
It may not seem it but I don't wish to have a go at you. I just want people to understand that finding a breeder on the internet, asking a few questions, then asking the vets a few questions and getting the pup vet 'checked' is not always enough. It also fails to take into consideration the whole industry such a decision supports.

For anyone wanting to buy a pup from a breeder, I'd suggest taking a look at the Many Tears website. They take in and rehome a lot of ex breeders. A lot come from puppy farms which is of course the worst of the worst but not all. Have a look there. You may, or may not, change your mind.

🙄 That was a very depressing post! Not suggesting it’s not all true, but I’ve not experienced any such issues with either of the Vets I’ve used in Surrey. Good advice on buying a puppy though, it would be tragic to invest so much in a new dog, only to find they have issues.

Love the stories on the Beagles, I never knew they were like that!

I agree and not at all Christmassy!
Glad to hear you have had a positive experience with your vets. Like I say, they are not all bad. I used to shout the praises of my vet though but had a bit of a rude awakening.
If you'll excuse a link to the DM, this makes even more depressing reading:
http://www.theinternetpetvet.com/why-im-ashamed-to-be-a-vet-a-shocking-expose-of-the-profession/

Good on all the people suggesting rescue. There is no need to feed breeders, when there are so many unwanted dogs out there.

I'm quite surprised considering the usual holier than though nature of this forum that so many people are advocating getting a 'bred for you' dog.

If people must get a puppy from a breeder, can I suggest getting one of the working breeds from a breeder that is trying to get the best character and physical traits and not an exaggerated breeding standard. Some friends of ours have resisted all the mixed breeds and gone for a working Cocker puppy. He came part trained so was with his mum for a little longer. He’s a cracker, inquisitive, lots of personality, takes training really well. As others have said get recommendations from friends etc. Really do your research into the breeder.

ThePilot, a detailed and interesting post and no offence taken. I had a bit of added insight in that my cousin is a vet, albeit not local, so I was able to pick her brain in detail to help the process around puppy purchase. I wholly agree that the market is full of entrepreneurial people who don’t always have the animals well-being at the forefront.

We spend a fair bit of time and a load of internet cross checking on the breeder, and asked them a few questions that they weren’t expecting, but were happy to answer.

We were also probably lucky, at least based on where we are so far..

Iainc, glad not to have caused offence.
It's been six months since I lost my little one and Christmas - never something I look particularly look forward to - is proving a struggle this year without her.
Got my Rommie rescue who is lovely but you can't ever fill the void they leave behind.
I hope it's a long way away in the far distant future for you and little Ollie.

One last post before I leave it. It's not about one puppy, it's about the whole industry people who buy from breeders are supporting.
I used to be a bit of a clubber back in the day. I told myself that I wasn't doing anybody any harm when I bought a bit of this and that to help me enjoy the night (something I'm sure many of us have done). I think, in hindsight, it's pretty clear that I was.
I see buying a dog from a breeder as pretty much the same. It may not be a criminal act, but neither is a lot of animal cruelty, but a lot of what breeders do is morally indefensible. If you choose to support that by buying puppies from breeders then that is of course your choice.
Maybe just have a think about the bigger picture before you do.

Iainc - you might want to post the type of questions the breeder wasn't expecting. Might help others out.

Vets and dog food were both an eye opener when starting the journey with Bert.

I quickly learnt that our local vet wasn't really putting my dogs health first. He is with a better vets now but I still Google and double check what I'm being told. I've figured that if the vet has lots of advertising promotional material pushing certain pet foods or products then they are more likely to care about the kick backs from that company than my dog.
The final straw with the first vets was them pushing Bravecto flea treatment.

Dog food is a other minefield - I knew that cheap dog food is ground up beaks and bollocks but it took ages and lots of googling to find decent food. There is so much hidden crap in dog food.

Anyway Bert is enjoying his Xmas day!

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I see buying a dog from a breeder as pretty much the same. It may not be a criminal act, but neither is a lot of animal cruelty, but a lot of what breeders do is morally indefensible. If you choose to support that by buying puppies from breeders then that is of course your choice.
Maybe just have a think about the bigger picture before you do.

That's a very broad brush statement. I mentioned before that I'm involved in a breed club. Admittedly, a breed which is now relatively unfashionable. Every breeder that I know is 100% involved in ensuring the breed is maintained as it is and ensuring the health of the breed.
We fund an annual health report, to monitor any prevailing illness or conditions that may pop up, and selective breeding can ensure that these are nipped in the bud. I've visited several breeders homes and the pups are treated wonderfully. They all do it because of a love of the breed and the desire to see it continue. Financially, there isn't even much gained as they aren't a particularly fashionable breed, so they don't sell for daft prices. Once vet costs and time and effort with the pups is taken in to account, I'd say there is very slim profit to be had if any at all.

I plan to breed at some point in the near future and have spent hours researching the lines of dogs to ensure that I can produce the healthiest and best bred, with the loweat inbreeding coefficient. I've also been given lots of advise from existing breeders, who are happy to share info.
A picture of my breed and a picture of a dog taken 100 years ago would show that the breed hasn't been mucked around with as the dogs look identical.

Whilst I don't disagree that some breeders see they dogs as a means of cash, and have absolutely ruined some breeds, there are many, many who don't.

Dog food is a other minefield – I knew that cheap dog food is ground up beaks and bollocks but it took ages and lots of googling to find decent food. There is so much hidden crap in dog food.

Big time. Commercial pet food was created as an industry to get rid of the waste products from the human food chain. Vets get very limited nutritional training and it's usually sponsored by a pet food company. There is an American documentary on Netflix called Petfooled which is worth a watch. My dogs never get commercial dog food and are raw fed meat, bones, offal and the odd bit of fruit and veg.

The annual booster schedule is nothing but a scam. My dogs get their full set of puppy jags and nothing after that. They get an annual titre test, which always shows healthy levels of existing antibodies. I've never had to boost a dog yet.

I agree, Futureboy. It was too broad a brushstroke. Maybe I should have said many breeders.

Agree about food. I feed a BARF diet too. You're right about vets and nutrition too. The ex vet now vet physio said she looked into BARF when she left the industry but decided not to for her own reasons - she agreed it was best for the dog. But she said feeding kibble is drummed into you at vet college. And you can see why, a lot of money to be made.

Same re boosters. Sadly, I realised this too late for my little terrier.

ThePilot, my local vet feed told me privately that they feed BARF too. I thought that was quite telling.

Sorry about your terrier. It's terriers that I have too.

Futureboy77 An excellent post, I agree with everything you said. We titre test our boy and up to now has never needed extra jabs since he was a puppy.
I’m also a big advocate of raw feeding. The old adage of fit as a butcher’s dog is a very true statement. I know a lot of dogs that had skin conditions were solved by moving over from kibble to raw.
As for breeding due to our boy being quite successful in the show world (and his father being from the Ukrain so widening the gene pool in this country) we’ve been approached several times to use him as stud. Of the 12 enquiries (and that’s not including the idiots who wanted to cross breed) we’ve agreed to just two. We’ll only agree to a mating if both us and our breeder who we got our boy off agree that it’d improve the breed and make healthy pups with good temperaments.
Edit
All the health tests we’ve carried out and entering him in the championship shows to get him to the standard he’s at has cost us several thousand pounds. We’ve certainly not made any money out of it but for us it’s not about the money, we do it for the love of the breed.

Thanks Futureboy. Best dogs ever, terriers.
Never got a practising vet to admit they feed raw but I'm sure many do.

@bjj.andy.w sounds like your dog is doing well in the ring. Well done, that takes a lot of work. I don't show, but my bitch is the daughter of the most awarded and well known dog of the breed and her mother is also very well known. I had offers when she was younger to get a stud to mate with her, I just didn't see what it would bring to the breed, so didn't take up any offer. Both my dogs ancestry is from all over the world. It dispels the "all pedigree dogs are hugely inbred" myth (assuming they are the product of good breeders).

@ThePilot, Terriers are great. They may drive you to the edge of despair with their stubbornness at times, but they always reward you for it.

FWIW I'm not a pedigree zealot, I've had a few Heinz 57's in my time too.

Bert is raw fed plus eggs, sardines, bit of cheese, took me 18months to get there with varying states of....poo! Small bowl of Lilys kibble left out for inbetween snacking as required.

Drontal bought online, Cooper and Gracie natural flea spray in warmer months - don't bother in winter, his coat is brushed once a week and never found any fleas. Teeth brushed a couple of times a week. Not had a booster

I feel a bit guilty for Bert for the time it took me to figure all this out.

Futureboy, yes, you've got to learn to love the stubbornness! They sure got their fair share 🙂
Brilliant dogs though, such amazing little characters. Mine was a Parsons. How about yours?

I'm the same RustyNissanPrairie with regards the guilt. She had tummy problems and the vet told me to give her a high fat snack before bedtime - cheese, Greek yoghurt, even a little butter. I did. I actually can't believe that I did. Eventually worked out it was making her tummy much worse. But I feel so bad it took me so long. She was on Billy No Mates for fleas and a natural spray.

This one is on Nexguard. And steroids. I hate giving them to her but she has Demodex. It was really severe and it's massively improved from where she was but will likely be prone to it for life. I'm going to her to a holistic vet in Glasgow when I can and/or a specialist. Can't travel yet obviously.

ThePilot Cairn Terriers. Parsons are great dogs, a pal has one. That's brutal that a vet recommend that. I give a little cheese now and then but never close to bed time!

@RustyNissanPrairie watch out feeding kibble and raw. They both take different times to digest and can upset the gut flora and pH balance. I don't brush teeth as the bones do better than me putting my fingers in there 🤣 I don't give flea treatment. A clove of garlic every few days keeps fleas and ticks away.

Cairns are great dogs!
Yes, brutal is the word. I still can't understand why he said that. Was he a sadist? Obviously, I blame myself, put way too much trust in him.

@ThePilot it's hard to argue with this face

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Not hard, impossible!

I don’t show, but my bitch is the daughter of the most awarded and well known dog of the breed and her mother is also very well known. I had offers when she was younger to get a stud to mate with her, I just didn’t see what it would bring to the breed, so didn’t take up any offer.

Futureboy77. Sounds like we are cut from the same cloth. As in we’ve got our respective breeds welfare in our hearts. Chapeau !

Be careful with the Garlic. Allium is toxic to dogs even in small doses. Depends on the weight of the dog as to how much and how often. I’ll stick to Frontline every few months.

Rocket my bonkers GSP has allergies to chicken and grain and would only ever pick at dry food, the vet recommended some very expensive food which he hated and gave him very soft poo. After a couple of weeks we put him on a raw diet and there was a change in him over a couple of days. He is 2.5 now and has been raw fed since 5 months, he is my best friend and total dickhead. He is at his happiest running on on the beach or laying in the sun chewing on a beef rib.

I quickly learnt that our local vet wasn’t really putting my dogs health first.

Ive had that experience as well. When we got our dog (the breeder, yeh I know) told us not to go with the first vet we tried, really stressed that point and repeatedly stressed it over at least a year (we are still in touch 4 years later, she likes to see what he’s up to, we’ve even stopped by theirs a couple of times years after pick up).

Anyway, in the words of the receptionist at one vets when pressed on why they was so keen to operate and why they wanted to charge 3 times the price of the vets that also had an genuine specialist (who didn’t want to operate) instead of someone that had a “bit of an interest. It transpired the pricing at least was “it’s that high because everyone pays by insurance so it doesn’t cost you anything” which is a sentence that doesn’t make any sense.

FWIW, the vets we normally use, prefers to avoid invasive treatments and doesn’t have a massive dog food display by reception.

Those of you going with the raw diet -how do you ensure your dogs are getting enough calcium?
I have a friend who is a vet in the same specialist area as Noel Fitzpatrick and he tells that is a big issue.

What the pilot, stripeysocks etc said. Have friend who works at local pet rescues and since Covid they are snowed under. It’s heartbreaking. She has three rescue dogs of her own and they’re all ace. Of course they are, they’re dogs! Our last dog was literally picked up in the street by Mrs P. Degenerate neighbours moved and left a dachs pup in the road as they locked their door. Cigarette burns on face, other scars from being used as a toy for the rottie (which they kept) - but she was instantly inseparable from Mrs P and healed and thrived for 14 years until a heart tumour took her away. Tenacious little thing, stole my heart by being a single-minded outdoors/woodland/water/sticks obsessive. She would build a ‘nest’ in a stream by finding and piling-up endless sticks. She’d also swim across the River Severn nr Worcester and attempt to bring floating tree limbs back to the bank. I’d be terrified but to her it was merely a lark. Was also a game trying to recall her to go home once she’d found water. Never underestimate a little dog.

I feed our dog raw from a company called Natural Instinct. Gets delivered frozen, whack it in the fridge, defrost a pack at a time and he loves it. Supplement it with some Greek yogurt with his breakfast meal and usually some cheese most days.

Seems to have done him well enough so far, body condition is spot on. He does go a bit nuts long after feeding but I think that’s because he’s still young and well, a bit crazy.

patagonian, I feed mine raw eggs, sardines, raw bones, green tripe, yoghurt and kefir for calcium. Raw feeding isn't or shouldn't be just about feeding raw meat.
From what I know, as well as having sufficient calcium in your diet, bone strength comes from exercise so I'd question whether these dogs your friend is seeing get enough exercise.
It may be the numbers are being pushed up by flat faced dogs who can't exercise enough because they can't get enough air to their muscles.
Not saying that is the case, just saying it may be a more complicated issue than just a lack of calcium.

I'd still advocate rescue every time, piemonster but it sounds like you went to a good breeder. Agree about vets and insurance. Some use it as a licence to print money. One of the first question you are asked by the vet is: is the dog insured? I would consider insurance again but I would tell the vet I had the smallest amount of cover and not a lifetime policy and I'd handle all the claims myself.

Back to breeders, if all breeders, even the accidental ones, did as they are supposed to and took responsibility for any dog they bred for life, there would be no need for rescue shelters. But many don't although I know some do.
A neighbour of mine breeds cockers. Lovely lovely dogs. Her last litter left for their homes a few months ago. But she almost lost her three year old when she was whelping. And once Covid is done, she is moving to Australia. I can only presume she will pay for any dogs that need to be returned to be flown out to Oz and she'll take care of them there. Or she'll move back of course. She's a nice woman but, I'm sorry, irresponsible, in my book anyway.

Thanks for the responses. I was interested in your views as I'm sure theres not one simple answer.
Rescue dogs - ideally yes but not always as easy as you might think. We think we are ideally positioned to have a dog but found it really difficult to get a rescue.....and with young grandkids (and cats) finding a match was bad enough.

Appreciate all the continuing advice. I realise everyone has very different experiences and have different opinions, and this was what I was after as I want to know as much as I can from all angles...all the pro's and cons. We're not discounting rescue but my enquiries so far for rescue puppies have proved difficult... so many dogs are explicitly advertised as suitable only for adults and not families and/or not suitable for first time dog owners so that doesn't leave you with much. Also I do know of a few people who are experienced dog owners and have had challenging times with rescue dogs and with this being our first foray into dog ownership I'm not sure we are experienced enough to deal with a dog with any phycological issues that might come with a rescue dog that might have been neglected or abused. We continue to look in the rescue centres in the local area (say 50 mile or so radius of where we live) for rescue pups of the breed or similar breed that we would like. It's a common breed so shouldn't be looking for a needle in a haystack. I've deliberately not mentioned the dog breed we're targeting as my aim is to not spark off a discussion on breeds...there are plenty of those already which I've read, I'm just interested in the process of finding one.

But in principle if there is a 'covid pup' that has been abandoned by their owners then we'd be more than happy to take it on, I'm not set on getting from a breeder.

We are taking our time and have already sounded out some breeders and what I do like is the fact you can trace all the history of the parents so can be sure the parents at least don't have any of the genetic issues or disorders associated with some breeds, but so far not really 'gelled' with a breeder...they all happy to provide whatever information or detail I ask for, and if they weren't I'd walk away, but I'm looking for a connection and warm feeling from a breeder rather than a transactional response and some form of feeling they're not in it for the industry and to exploit the current soaring prices.

rescue dog that might have been neglected or abused.

As a family rehoming you won't get an offer of one with issues if the organisation is reputable. Dogs that have bitten will not normally be accepted into the system (Dogs Trust excepted) as it's too much of a risk. (Dogs Trust take them but may not offer them for adoption).

We had a puppy to rehome for the first time in October (11 months old) he has been a joy to get going but I accept that we are an experienced home. He came from a home with young children we have no worries with him when we're out as he wants to play with other dogs not with strange humans. If we have ball with us then nothing gets a look in it's all about the ball. Ball is life!