If the motorway is quiet enough there is no reason not to move over to the right hand lane. This keeps the flow going.
Yes, it helps so much for so little effort. If tonight I pulled over into the other lane to allow him to enter the dual carriageway, and I don't want to go any faster, I would have now been one of the slowest moving vehicles and in the fast lane. The flow of my driving would have decreased as I dropped back to pull in behind around 6 cars that had been gaining on me for the past 5 or so miles which were all in the slow/inside lane with me. It's a new set of made up rules that is causing problems. If everyone knew not to push out like they do these days,and follow the way the highway code describes it, there would be a lot less of these problems.
Just so as we're all clear:
3. Joining the motorway (259)
259
Joining the motorway. When you join the motorway you will normally approach it from a road on the left (a slip road) or from an adjoining motorway. You shouldgive priority to traffic already on the motorway
check the traffic on the motorway and match your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane
not cross solid white lines that separate lanes or use the hard shoulder
stay on the slip road if it continues as an extra lane on the motorway
remain in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before considering overtaking.
Totally agree with you OP, I would have been fuming.
breadcrumb - MemberIt's not give way markings at the end of the slip road either.
What's the dashed line mean then?
Just so we're all clear on this.
ensure you do not cut in on the vehicle you have overtaken
Yup two wrongs don't make a right.
Why is there a speed ad above? I was going about 60 in a 70. Not 70 in a 60 :o)
Drac
168
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass.
Sounds like the OP has just admitted being a pretty poor driver, showing very little road awareness, anticipation, and consideration.
Drac168
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass.
Back there <<<
I said both were in the wrong hence the 'two' wrongs.
They then went on to explain that the way slip roads work, it's common decency to pull out to the right lane to let them filter in
Get stuffed. They're not the "common courtesy" cops.
give priority to traffic already on the motorway
check the traffic on the motorway and match your speed to fit safely
This slip road is so short you would need a supercar to reack 70 by the end of it :O(
Drac, If I had just driven past the guy as he was going about 40-maybe 50 tops.. and I accelerate. Yet he still manages to be up my arse as I pull in. It's his doing. After all he did just pull out of a junction causing me to make a move to avoid him instead of braking on the cars behind me, I never slowed down, I sped up every so slightly before pulling back in. The cops said I was very close. Having sped up, I would say that HE got very close. Maybe if he was a bit more courteous of me pulling out after him pulling out on me in the first place you would think he would have at least eased off a bit. Then again, maybe he thought I was pulling in on him on purpose. I've been driving 20 odd years and always judged pulling back in well. This guy booted it, the lights were going up and down.. he got close. He was the arse. End of!
Slightly disingenuous there slowoldgit. Rule 168 not from the motorway section of the Highway Code. Overtaking on a motorway is covered in rules 267 to 269.
Sounds like the [s]OP has just admitted being[/s] driver of the car on the sliproad was a pretty poor driver, showing very little road awareness, anticipation, and consideration.
FTFY
Driving on motorways at high speed is not an activity to be carried on in one's own bubble. It requires anticipation, awareness and a willingness to give as well as take to avoid creating dangerous situations. If you're in the left hand lane you have to anticipate the speed of joining traffic and act accordingly. Sometimes this means braking, be it by engine braking or with your right foot (if the driver behinds starts gesticulating, then he or she is too close) to allow the other car to join safely...all this if moving out would create more danger to overtaking traffic in the middle/outside lane. If you're overtaking in the middle/outside lane as you approach a joining slip road, you should also be aware of joining traffic and what this may cause drivers in the left hand lane to do.
nicely put.
FTFY
and another one as bad as the OP.
Martin, not trying to speak on Drac's behalf but I don't think he's defending the other guy, just saying that you may have exacerbated the situation by pulling back in too soon. At least that's how I'm understanding it.
Had you mentioned the shortness of the slip-road previously? Sorry if you did, I missed it.
You were the one performing the manoeuvre so you're responsible for making sure it's safe to pull back in without cutting him off.
Martin, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but I saw it earlier today, thought it was worth sharing, and a thread about driving behaviour and road safety seemed to be as good a place as any.
The point goes beyond speeding, anyway.
OP and some others on here sound like they should be on a car forum complaining about the bl88dy cyclists who think they own the road...
All that is far too much silliness with lane swapping etc for me. Left mirror checking and left shoulder checking to get back out of that fast lane? Not a chance I'm going to get into the swing of that crap...... I pulled back in to the lane and told them that I honestly didn't know how close he was.....
Surely this is a troll? If not, you shouldn't be driving mate, looking over your shoulder and being aware of a car right behind you isn't really optional.
Oh, and about this:
Only I am pretty sure I never indicated back in.
and this:
So I get pulled over for pulling back into the lane I was already in
That's not how it works, you don't have "dibs" on a bit of tarmac because you were in that lane a moment ago.
In answer to your question
Do I then have to slow down and shoulder check to find a way back into the left lane which I was already in,
Yes, of course you do, certainly the looking part, slowing down if necessary (and again, the fact that you were previously in that lane is irrelevant)
now 2,3,5 cars back from where I was seconds before?
Grow up.
If I slowed down instead of the last minute common courtesy lane switch.. the cop would have been right up MY bumper. :O(
Was the Police van 'traffic'? I'd say they need to stick to their specialism.
If its a sliproad the other driver did not have right of way.
Courtesy? What like when idiots force their way onto a motorway thinking an indicator gives them overpowering rights?
What mattsccm and others said is spot on; there is now a presumption that the person on the slip road has Right of Way.
Yes, if it's clear / safe I'll let someone merge, but if I feel there's any question I'm not going to change lane OR speed so they'll have to wait for a few seconds, until they're more than welcome to give me the finger / flash me.
Around here people just barge their way in anyway and hope for the best 😐 Don't think any more about it martinxyz and chalk this one up to experience.
konabunny - MemberGet stuffed. They're not the "common courtesy" cops.
^^ this. BTW if it was a 'normal' police van they shouldn't really be pulling cars
BTW if it was a 'normal' police van they shouldn't really be pulling cars
Of course the can.
there is now a presumption that the person on the slip road has Right of Way.
When did this happen?
If you think about it logically, the actions of the other driver are rude, but did not result in anyone being in immediate danger. Your driving does seem to have done this, compounded by failing to indicate.
The road is full of selfish people. Irritating as it may be, it's normally safer overall to accommodate these tools.
Do I then have to slow down and shoulder check to find a way back into the left lane which I was already in
Yes! Of course you do!
1) It's not your lane, you have no right to it just because you were there. Road safety isn't about sticking to your guns, it's about not crashing.
2) You should always know how far away from other cars you are, regardless of what they are doing or if they are right or wrong.
3) As my driving instructor used to say, it won't make a difference whose right of way it was when you are lying in a hospital bed.
Now he was in the wrong, of course - you're supposed to give way as you join a DC/motorway, but see point 3.
I did a Driver Awareness course in June (35 in a 30) and the instructor bloke said he has noticed this type of slip road etiquette seemed to be becoming the norm.
Was anyone actually taught how to join motorways etc on their driving test? I don't think I was.
Yes, if it's clear / safe I'll let someone merge, but if I feel there's any question I'm not going to change lane OR speed so they'll have to wait for a few seconds, until they're more than welcome to give me the finger / flash me.
If I see traffic close to merging, I'll often have a look to see if I can get out of the way. I also frequently move into lane 2 just before junctions. My reasoning is that I probably have a better view of the road than the merging traffic. Seems to be less stressful 😉
I expect I wouldn't be going as fast as some of you. I'll probably stay in the nearside lane thanks, there's normally faster and denser traffic passing on my right. If they're on my left, whoevers joining can speed up or slow down. Then I'll react appropriately to help make a gap.
I am truly shocked there are actually experienced drivers on our roads with attitudes like OP! ......and not to mention, slightly worried.
Scary stuff!
And had you not pulled back in was this car going to undertake you..... Seems to me that the joining car had no idea what he was playing at......
presumably a 'cop' who has never been to court with road traffic matters? The courts don't tell the police how to spend their time. If two cops give evidence that your return to lane 1 required at least two vehicles to take avoiding action to prevent a collision then there is the merits of a conviction there.Was speaking to a cop about it and he reckoned that if I was to get charged for whatever reason,they would have been told to get out of court and stop wasting police time as the guy altered my driving.
The most confusing thing of all was that they only way you thought you could avoid a collision / make space was by changing lanes - but 9/10 times I can do it by simply lifting off my right foot... ...too much of a rush.
The most likely way you will kill someone or get killed in the UK is on our roads. I'm quite comfortable with the police making that a focus for their intervention even if sometimes they make are arse of it, because I bet you think twice before rushing to cut back in next time.
The most confusing thing of all was that they only way you thought you could avoid a collision / make space was by changing lanes - but 9/10 times I can do it by simply lifting off my right foot... ...too much of a rush.
No rush at all,scroll back and read. I was going 60/65mph in front of a cop for approx 4 miles.
edlong - Member
All that is far too much silliness with lane swapping etc for me. Left mirror checking and left shoulder checking to get back out of that fast lane? Not a chance I'm going to get into the swing of that crap...... I pulled back in to the lane and told them that I honestly didn't know how close he was.....
Surely this is a troll? If not, you shouldn't be driving mate, looking over your shoulder and being aware of a car right behind you isn't really optional.
Oh, and about this:
Only I am pretty sure I never indicated back in.
and this:
So I get pulled over for pulling back into the lane I was already in
That's not how it works, you don't have "dibs" on a bit of tarmac because you were in that lane a moment ago.
Read below on my take on his acceleration and my judgement. You might see it as me pulling in on a guy but I wouldn't do that. He sped up a bit heavier footed than needed. The police didn't reply or question this when I mentioned it along with his lights showing the obvious movement of his car under acceleration which, to me, seemed a bit abnormal. They saw it all.
See below about the way I worded it and how you along with Molgrips picked me up wrong because of it.In answer to your questionDo I then have to slow down and shoulder check to find a way back into the left lane which I was already in,
Yes, of course you do, certainly the looking part, slowing down if necessary (and again, the fact that you were previously in that lane is irrelevant)now 2,3,5 cars back from where I was seconds before?
Grow up.
I passed the car, he was going about 40-50mph like I said. I glanced to the left and there was no car there.. then started to pull back in. As this was happening I see the lights tilting back and forth in my left mirror and once I'm in the lane, he's closing in the final distance to be right on my tail with the full beam. I felt the speed I had passed him and the judgement of the speed he was still going as I passed, all added up to be fine to move back over. With the movement of the lights and the speed at which he was on my tail there's no doubt he's booted it. Could he have not let me in without the aggro? No, because I obviously peeved him off by staying in my lane approaching the slip road for all the reasons I talked about. I told the police I honestly thought I judged it right considering the speed I passed him in the slip road and that I even accelerated up to about 65-70 by the time I was crossing back in as I knew from the lights that he was making it hard for me. Obviously not quick enough for the guy that booted it and had no respect for someone that bothered to pull out for him when he shouldn't have in the first place. It's the way the final sequence of our driving worked out. I know for sure I didn't pull in onto a car from the side. By the time I was in, he then started to reel me in the final bit and put full beam on. No need for that.
Come to think of it, the cops that had to brake after following the guy that booted it up to 65-70mph to pull in front of myself and the cop van behind.. why did the police not pull over into the 2nd lane? Why were they driving so close for this to become a problem for them? The distance they drove behind some other car after all this was done and dusted would have shocked you.
As for the other stuff, you (and Molgrips) picked it up in the wrong way.
What I meant by the questions of me pulling out and having to shoulder check/mirror check to get back, backing off and waiting until the other cars to my left have passed and going backwards on my journey, was me asking if I should really be pulling out into that lane and going through all those actions when I could just stay in the lane I'm travelling in (like I had planned to do,without going to all that bother to try and correct someone's mistake with some other kind of rules) Of course I'd have to do all of that if there's car after car to my left but what I meant was.. should I really be going out of my way and adding all that extra work to my journey because of someone pulling out on me at a slip road? I don't think anyone on here would choose the option of pulling out and waiting until all the other traffic that was already behind you flowed on by on the inside, only for you to rejoin at the back. The answer is for people to hold fire at slip roads, cars having right of way to stick to their guns and hold their lane if they feel they don't feel safe to 'be courteous' or can't let them flow in for other reasons. If you have been brain washed into thinking that it's a must to have to pull right into another lane because someone has just pulled out on you from a slip road, you've been doing what I had been doing myself for years. During the bike test/lessons, I was put in my place. It was described as a junction. I was asked what you should do at junctions.. and without being told,I knew exactly what he meant by it. This was about 4 years ago. Up until then I had a similar mindset to this guy by indicating, getting up to speed and half expecting others reactions to alter to flow with mine.It's a junction. Think about it next time you are in a slip road. Don't expect to be able to flow out every time. This is what happened at the junction before the one in question last year during the roadworks. A bus was put off the road because it had nowhere to go with all the traffic on both lanes. It was on the front page of the local paper. If the cars merging followed the highway code, it wouldn't have happened.
I think the last thing anyone want's is a driver stopped at the end of a slip road.
IME on a motorway you get seriously ample 'warning' of junctions ahead.
Junctions to me mean vehicles leaving and joining the motorway.
With a very short amount of time driving you'll get to know that some cars will join a bit slowly and some a bit quickly.
The cars joining are supposed to match the traffic on the motorway. however vehicles on the motorway might be a lorry doing 50, a driver keeping it at 70 or a speeding motorist.
With often miles and miles of warning it's easy to adjust your driving to cope with what might happen.
And what are we talking about here, passing a junction...a couple of seconds?
What's the dashed line mean then?
Double white dashed line is Give Way.
It's a single dashed white line where a slip road/ acceleration lane meets a m-way.
I do agree that drivers shouldn't force their way onto a motorway but drivers already on should help accommodate vehicles joining. It's far safer for everyone. Holding your ground because you were there first or you don't like changing lane is irresponsible.
As I've already said expecting joining traffic to come to a halt then accelerate up to m-way speeds is idiotic.
When I'm travelling on a motorway as I'm approaching a joining slip road I'll move to the right or alter my speed if I notice traffic wishing to join. This is what I was taught during my Pass Plus by my instructor (ex copper), its safer and keeps the m-way flowing more freely.
Where in the law does it say should help?
As I understand you must be prepared to come to a stop OR continue onto the hardshoulder if not safe?
OR - use your brain and adjust your speed to filter in BEHIND rather than beat or force another driver to put him/herself into the path of another car in the middle lane.
I bet a lorry driver would swear alot on this subject...
Only I am pretty sure I never indicated back in.
You don't have to indicate left unless you are leaving the motorway or you are changing lanes sooner than you should (eg emergency vehicle is approaching from behind and you need to re-enter lane 1/2 before being able to view the car you've just overtaken in your rear view). This still doesn't give anybody the right to cut people up though!
My understanding is you don't indicate into a left hand lane as that's where you should be dependent on traffic, not hogging the middle lane.
I think motorway lessons should be compulsory after you've passed the driving test.
My understanding is you don't indicate into a left hand lane as that's where you should be dependent on traffic, not hogging the middle lane.
If you altering your course you need to tell other drivers, it doesn't matter that you think you should be in that lane they need to know your intentions.
Hora - the reality is that there often isn't an easy gap available on busy dual carriageways and motorways, and if you come to a stop on the slip (or there isn't a hard shoulder), that difficulty and the risk of a braking wave or crash is magnified greatly.
Bit of give and take is all that is needed, regardless of rights of way. OP was right and considerate to move over, and a bit careless perhaps coming back again. It's the sort of thing that happens frequently at peak times.
Truth is probably that the copper pulled him because he was embarrassed at having to brake sharply due to his own inattention/lack of braking distance, and needed someone else to blame.
I suppose a lot of it is common courtesy but you don't /have/ to pull out and allow them to filter in.
Sounds like the other driver then abused the situation if, as you say, he booted it and went to full beam (or appeared to, if the boot lowered and bonnet lifted - may be just poor headlights).
I think there's no obligation to indicate to pull back in, again just common courtesy - could be wrong on that. However, if you cut in, sounds like he was accelerating to beyond your speed, which is where filtering breaks down...
I think there's no obligation to indicate to pull back in, again just common courtesy - could be wrong on that.
Yeah you're wrong.
Multi-lane carriageways (133 to 143)
Lane discipline
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over
Yup Motorway lessons should maybe be compulsory then.
...too much of a rush.
[b]martinxyz[/b] - No rush at all,scroll back and read. I was going 60/65mph in front of a cop for approx 4 miles.
Don't confuse "rush" with speed.
You've already said that cars would have to boot it to get up to joining speed from the short sliproad so it's no surprise that his car's bobbing a bit under accelerationCome to think of it, the cops that had to brake after following the guy that booted it up to 65-70mph to pull in front of myself and the cop van behind.. why did the police not pull over into the 2nd lane? Why were they driving so close for this to become a problem for them?
Look from his perspective: He's accelerating to join the road, you move over (how kind and sensible) so he takes "your" spot in front of the copper (for this to be a safe distance he'd need to get himself as far in front of them as you initially were)
... but then you move back in - to the space he's attempting to occupy. All without any indication.
surely the answer involves "depends on the type of junction ..." ? The point of a sliproad is to get joining traffic up to a speed where it can safely MERGE with existing traffic, not to allow cars to reach it's end, slow or stop while looking for a space and then have to accelerate again. In anything like heavy traffic, once one car does that then all cars behind it will have to also and that is (a) dangerous and (b) ultimately slows all traffic, including those already on the motorway. Doesn't mean it must never happen, but it's in everyone's interest to keep it to a minimumDuring the bike test/lessons, I was put in my place. It was described as a junction. I was asked what you should do at junctions..
Moving over when you can (or already being out there if you know it's a short slip) isn't just courtesy; it's safety and efficiency
I tend not to indicate back in if I'm going into the left lane and moving faster than the vehicle I've overtaken. I don't slam my way in just after passing, so they don't need to know what I'm intending to do - I'm ahead of them and moving away so they are in no danger of needing to react to my action. If I'm merging into traffic moving at the same speed as me then of course I'd have to(drac) If you altering your course you need to tell other drivers, it doesn't matter that you think you should be in that lane they need to know your intentions
Drac - ModeratorIf you altering your course you need to tell other drivers, it doesn't matter that you think you should be in that lane they need to know your intentions.
While this is in the highway code, I am pretty sure that at 'higher' levels of driving, this is not taught as always required.
I used to frequent the Parkers forum (which doesn't exist anymore) and had regular 'discussions' with an ex-traffic Police blokie who was a high level instructor for the IAM. I can't rememebr all his credentials, but basically if you could do a course on it for driving, he had done it, bought the t-shirt and taught others how to do it.
He regularly used to say that indicating in certain situations wasn't necessary; it should only be used if it is was of direct benefit to other road users and used to cite specifically pulling in after overtaking people as a situation where he wouldn't indicate. I used to argue at length with him about it, but he was adamant it was 'roadcraft' etc.
Sometimes I do think that indicating can make people do as the OP describes; accelerate to close a gap as they don't want you 'getting in front' or 'filling their space' or some other nonsense.
Having read through this thread yesterday, I was a bit more observant about slip road shenanigans on the way into work this morning. One thing that I have previously thought is an issue, I saw lots of today; people driving too close to each other, particularly on the slip lane. They all bomb down the lane in a big train with no room for manoeuvre. If you are on the inside of the main carriageway and there are cars coming down your outside, this can leave you with having to force a gap in the cars by maintaining your position and letting one of them slow to slot in behind you (which automatically slows all the cars behind them too) or come to a virtual stop on the carriageway to let the whole lot in. One junction today, there must have been 10 cars all steaming down a slip road with less than a cars length between them, which if you are forced to stay in the inside lane due to traffic overtaking on the outside doesn't give you too many options.
I think a lot of it comes down to anticipation and people not thinking further than the end of the bonnet.
Pulling out into the outside lane on the approach to slip roads can sometimes work, but some roads have so many slip roads you would spend more time in the outside lane letting people join the carriageway than you would on the inside lane.
Oh, one more thing....(for the moment 🙂 ). I think in other European countries, the onus is on the people on the main carriageway to move out of the way and the people on the slip road have priority. An old colleague of mine is Polish and came in ranting one day about someone not moving out of his way to let him join the A14. After finding out a bit more, it turns out he was of the impression that he had right of way as he was joining the main carriageway, which he said was how it works in Poland. So, perhaps this is more prevalent where there are large numbers of European immigrants who are familiar with different traffic rules?
Fair point Drac, I was possibly thinking of single lane overtake and return manoeuvre - when the default is to return.
Regular re-test for all? not a bad idea. I could do with a re-test I'm sure.