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Putting some perspective around this for a second (thinking out loud)
Not sure of the proportions here, so forgive me.
Public Sector has a lot of back office staff admin doesn’t it. Just look at any council or Whitehall or any of the large fundamental bodies like Ministry of Justice or HMRC.
So, base level salaries for mid tier admin dept manager is going to be about £45k after xx years service (I know that as my mate works as a iT head in a local council)
The MoJ in Croydon are on an initiative to Impliment a whole load of IT change, daily rate for SolArch or ProjMgr on a contract (outside IR35) £750pd so roughly £180-190k per year.
Worth, yeah. Factor the admin depts in and the whole Public Sector Pay grade system is skewed towards short term contracts and not lifetime service and a pension..
What most folk are not numerically literate enough to appreciate is...
I blame the poor standard of teaching.
So, base level salaries for mid tier admin dept manager is going to be about £45k after xx years service
It is? Where do I get my backpay? I'm not admin maybe I should be so I get more.
Portsmouth City Council.
You can blame my mate for putting the Speed Camera infrastructure in too👍
I particularly like the way that the increase for newly qualified nurses takes them just above the threshold for student loan repayments so instead of a couple of years before repayment starts they will have to do so from their very first pay cheque. Add the removal of bursaries, leading to higher levels of debt to pay for training and it’s a marvellous incentive to those we need to recruit to cover the massive shortfall in nurse numbers.
Jesus. 2 weeks at Christmas too!
I particularly like the way that the increase for newly qualified nurses takes them just above the threshold for student loan repayments
Remind me again what the logic in charging fees on a job that will mostly be done in the NHS? Should just be a x years min for the NHS and fee's are wiped.Same with teaching or anything like that, the Army doesn't charge tuition fee's does it?
Do the ****wits that post about teachers having long holidays and low hours not know any teachers?
And when teachers point out retention problems… they get told to stop moaning and join the exodus.
Do the **** that post about teachers having long holidays and low hours not know any teachers?
I think some are just posting it as a joke, if not if they do know teachers I'd expect them to meeting some doctors or nurses shortly
Worth is always going to be difficult to value I agree, however worth boils down to what we as a society place upon it. It would sadly appear that today society does not value education, health or law and order.
I don't think it applies to public sector any more.
People expect that they have a basic right to education for their kids and other's kids, medical etc. .etc. not something that THEY personally need to pay for but an expectation that is all gets paid from a magic money tree that OTHER's pay into.
Why pay for education if you have no kids? Surely the doctors and nurses you need as you get older will come from a magic money tree ... it's not like they needed to go to a school... etc.
It would sadly appear that today society does not value education, health or law and order.
It's almost as though *everything* we let the state manage for us is not done to our satisfaction.
My wife had a wobble with her job earlier in the year so decided to have a change. She had always wanted to use her degree and always thought she'd make a good teacher so looked in to it and spoke to friends/family that are/were teachers. To a man/woman they all told her to run a million miles from teaching. Some of the stories of the hours they work were truly shocking. She did change jobs but to another private sector one which she's extremely happy in and gets paid a considerable amount more than she would if she'd become a teacher.
Oh, and on the pay thing I imagine the Fire Service will get a slice at some point.
This will be great as it's only a couple of weeks ago that out Chief Officer told us that if any unexpected rises that were not funded from the treasury came along before 2021 our lot would have to make front line Fire Fighters redundant. It needs to be remembered that in our Brigade it's not unusual for 50% of our pumps to be off the run due to crewing shortages and that the last round of cuts left us with no resilience what so ever. We are literally a bit of good luck away from a major disaster.
. To a man/woman they all told her to run a million miles from teaching.
My mother was a teacher until about 10 years ago when she took early retirement (one of the last who could as they were reorganising) at a point where I didn't know what to do she said she would support me to do anything but teaching or working with my Dad back on the farm as we would never agree on anything.
It’s almost as though *everything* we let the state manage for us is not done to our satisfaction.
It's almost as if these vital public services are the play things of politicians trying to win elections by making promises often against evidence or best practice. It's almost as if they don't really care what the long term implications of their actions are.
It always amazes me that many in the private sector when they get no or little pay rises, instead of doing something about it whine like babies because teachers or nurses get a fair rise every now and then.
That said, I think there is a tendency for teachers to talk down their profession, my brother loves it, but he worked in the private sector first and finds teaching far more rewarding than his previous life as a communications engineer.
For such a shit job that doesn't pay well we seem to have A LOT of people prepared to do it with almost 500,000 publicly funded teachers.
That is 2% of the full time working population.
Stop moaning and find something else then?
Many have hence the chronic lack of teachers, well half decent ones anyway.
That is 2% of the full time working population.
How many children of school age are there? How many teachers do you think we need?
That is 2% of the full time working population.
Give me some numbers and I'll get you a stat that makes anything sound important.
Give me some numbers and I’ll get you a stat that makes anything sound important.
98.
That is a number... but anyway
1.292 Million people in the UK either correctly estimate or overestimate the scale of small businesses in the UK
98% underestimate it, pointless numbers really
it would also suggest that teachers only make up 20% of those employed in Education.
Education as a whole employes 1% more of the working population than Manufacturing, 3% more than construction - in fact it's only beaten by Retail & Motors (one cat) and Health
the 2% who are teachers are actually more comparable with the mining, energy and water sector at 1.8%
What that tells you I don't really know here, sure as hell don't know what it tells you about pay and conditions.
This is due to the constant stress and pressure, no money in xxxx
xxxx insert any job with any responsibility
soon there will be an innovation for children to learn at Home from online videos and quizzes. One the training is in place teachers will just need to “deploy” the system. It will put the population in readiness for their lives as corporate drones
soon there will be an innovation for children to learn at Home from online videos and quizzes. One the training is in place teachers will just need to “deploy” the system. It will put the population in readiness for their lives as corporate drones
Yeah I think you have missed what teaching is there 🙂
We don't need corporate drones, AI or it's close alternatives will cover that crap fairly easily or it can be outsourced, What we need are people who can thinks and learn along with people who can do.
It’s almost as if these vital public services are the play things of politicians trying to win elections by making promises often against evidence or best practice. It’s almost as if they don’t really care what the long term implications of their actions are.
Yup.
You joke about that Cornholio, but one of my previous 'innovative' head teachers was leaning towards this. He was trying to roll out systems at our school where we could teach our lesson from the local starbucks if we wanted to. He designed two huge schools to the cost of 39 million, involved plaza teaching, where you could teach 120 kids at a time.... both schools now are in financial difficulty since Samsung and Microsoft stopped payrolling their technology. Academies eh?!
He has since left education and is working with the TfL on emotional intelligence. We also had to do this every lesson with us and the pupils; http://ei.yale.edu/mood-meter-app/
Many have hence the chronic lack of teachers, well half decent ones anyway.
All the teachers I have any contact with are superb. Education in the UK today is breathtakingly inspiring compared to the dull and ineffective education I was provided with a generation before my kids.
Unless you mean the half decent teachers have left and only terrific teachers remain, in which case I think I'd agree.
What that tells you I don’t really know here, sure as hell don’t know what it tells you about pay and conditions.
The point was that a lot of people are teachers. If it was that bad they would not be doing it, for two main reasons;
- They are qualified and could do other jobs with less pressure and bettter work life balance
- They are qualified and could do better paid jobs
They have a better choice to go and do something else than a lot of people in other 'crap' jobs but they don't.
The point was that a lot of people are teachers. If it was that bad they would not be doing it, for two main reasons;
Well depends on your definition of a lot doesn't it.
They are qualified and could do other jobs
In what respect, can you transfer without taking a big pay cut, how is the job market?
– They are qualified and could do better paid jobs
Such as?
What does getting teachers out of teaching solve? Many actually care about what they do, like many others who feel that they are doing something worthwhile. telling people they are lucky and can leave if they don't like it sounds like something from the Jeremy Hunt book of motivational speaking
To a man/woman they all told her to run a million miles from teaching. Some of the stories of the hours they work were truly shocking.
The crux of it is that teachers have always worked after the bell goes at quarter to four (does this still happen), but in the past it meant lesson prep., marking, maybe some games supervision or a play or music activity. That's what teachers were/are in it for. Some arranged their lives so that they were out the door and used the same lesson plans for years and some were more involved and committed. Now it seems that the work outside teaching hours is soul-destroying nonsense, hence the gripes and lack of retention. A lot of teachers go into it because they like kids and a lot more because they like their subject. Very few because they like all the admin. Anybody that goes into it for the holidays is going to get a wake up call because it is very intense performing in front of a class without some internal motivation.
Every teacher I know could go and do something else… we should be thankful that they haven't. No idea why the response to concerns raised in the teaching profession should be "well stop teaching then", from anyone.
They have a better choice to go and do something else than a lot of people in other ‘crap’ jobs but they don’t.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the same X thousand suckers that sign up to be teachers remain the same people from one year to the next. In reality whilst there are a good number of career educators a sizable chunk of that figure is made up of transients - people who give it a try for a few years then move on and constantly need replacing. Many tens of thousands a year do in fact go and do something else.
In truth though it's still a pretty good job/career. You hear a lot of teachers moan about it because there a lot of them/us to do the moaning. It's also often trotted out to counter the short hours/ long holidays bobbins too. Also.......and I'll get shot for this....teachers as a breed do like a good moan. There have been staff rooms in schools I have worked in that have been insufferable. And whilst I'm offering myself up for a kicking; the old adage about 'those that can do, those that can't teach' is not completely fair as teachers have also got the skillset of being educators as well as their specialist academic subject, there are folk in education that were not cream of the crop in their university specialism.
Finally (to make sure I remain totally loathed) - state school teachers should have a go a private school life. Lots of benefits too I admit but when I went to the dark side after 10 years in state schools and moved to a boarding school I had a real jolt about the increase in working hours. I have not doubled my hours since I moved but it must be very close to it.
Some key points:
Pay rise:
The 3.5% figure is misleading
Only unqualified and Main scale teachers will get 3.5% (assuming schools can afford it - dodgy funding for this initiative).
This is teachers who have been qualified 6 years, or less.
Upper pay spine teachers get 2%.
Leadership scale teachers (I'm an Assistant Head) get 1.5%.
Recruitment and retention:
A massive problem, affecting consistency for the kids (1/3 of staff change ever year in my place), the quality of staff (you turn up sober and don't hit the kids, you're in) and adding to work load for those remaining (looking after inexperienced, sometimes poor and overworked staff takes its toll).
Essentially if you don't pay the market rate for good people, you get the rest. Who'd you want teaching your kids, that person you're going to recruit in a few years?
Pensions:
These aren't gold plated at all - when I started I contributed 3.2% - now it is 10.2% - so 7% stealth tax.
Moreover, the pension age went up by 8 years, so I only got 2 years closer to retirement in my first 10 years in the job.
Basically it is a swizz. I don't trust them not to change the rules again. Considering just taking the 400 a month I pay in.
Workload:
Admittedly I'm above average, but typically I get in 7.00am and leave around 20.00pm. Plus weekend and holiday work.
First day of the summer holidays for me - directed to come in to supervise Summer school. No choice. I'll be in another 5 to 20 days at least.
If other jobs are worse, I feel sorry for them. But that doesn't make Teaching easy. Still, pays the mortgage, just about.
Alex
What does getting teachers out of teaching solve? Many actually care about what they do, like many others who feel that they are doing something worthwhile. telling people they are lucky and can leave if they don’t like it sounds like something from the Jeremy Hunt book of motivational speaking
You missed the point again. I am not getting teachers out of teaching jobs, saying they should leave or telling them they are lucky. I am saying if it is that bad they would leave as they have better choices that many other people.
Maybe you are just listening to the whingey teachers. If I listened to the whingers where I worked I could be led into thinking the cushy place where I work is terrible.
I am saying if it is that bad they would leave as they have better choices that many other people.
Right
Maybe you are just listening to the whingey teachers.
Ah, your dismissing their concerns there, I can see why it's so easy not to spot your point, you make an assumption at step one and assume people agree with you.
Edit What % of the population indicates people happy in their jobs?
@kerley… nah, clearly not worth engaging with you… it's all been laid out clearly by others already… but you're just ignoring them .
I am not getting teachers out of teaching jobs, saying they should leave or telling them they are lucky.
I'm amazed by the people who come out of the woodwork on here to slag off the people educating our children when they get less than inflation pay rise but seem to have amnesia when it comes to us bailing out large parts of the private sectors with public money.
All the teachers I know work ridiculously hard, not a job I envy at all.
Worth every penny they earn and more (IMO).
We don’t need corporate drones, AI or it’s close alternatives will cover that crap fairly easily or it can be outsourced, What we need are people who can thinks and learn along with people who can do.
What we we need and what we want are different and no one will give you the same answer depending on what you expect the result of the education to be.
do you want it to prepare people for the workplace?
For many (probably most) this is just the ability to follow basic instructions. Much like a drone. seriously that is what my company wants to employ. Turn up follow the instructions get the task completion metrics up.
there need to be a few dysons but not so many.
do you want it to create society of well rounded people with maths, language, general science and knowledge of the classics etc.?
if so I think we be ****ed...
I would like to think we want the latter but in a “results” driven market it does not provide a neat measurable output...
do you want it to prepare people for the workplace?
For many (probably most) this is just the ability to follow basic instructions. Much like a drone. seriously that is what my company wants to employ. Turn up follow the instructions get the task completion metrics up.
I think you missed what I was saying there, that workplace will be short lived, how far from automation are those tasks?
What happens when those tasks don't need a person, should we be charitable about doing them? Should they be punishment tasks? Should we work out what people should be doing. Not to hit the cliche/buzzword but we are entering the 4th Industrial Revolution at the moment. Take a look at what happened in the last ones.
The simple shipping container cost 1000's of jobs in some places and created 1000's elsewhere the mundane just do it jobs on the docks could be done with only minor supervision these days.
I’m amazed by the people who come out of the woodwork on here to slag off the people educating our children when they get less than inflation pay rise but seem to have amnesia when it comes to us bailing out large parts of the private sectors with public money.
Is this your first public sector discussion on the internet or anywhere?
I think you missed what I was saying there, that workplace will be short lived, how far from automation are those tasks?
Examples would be stanard instructions for designing, manufacturing or maintaining something.
Think Haynes manual but for everything. The idea is that you can have IKEA style instructions for any task or process. Anyone can then do said task with very minimal initial instruction and no common language is required.
As no formal training is required these people are cheaper. You don’t need a room full of MIT grads to follow engineering instructions A level is fine.
examples of tasks that will be automated could be factory assembly lines but ones that can’t could be the people coming round to replace your gas meter.
I work in an engineering company of more than 100000 and the engineering is probably less than 10% and the rest is work instructions...
once automation hits there will be limited need for people to do anything.
if goods/food are made, packed, delivered automatically all people need to do is consume. Mind you by the time that happens we will be beholden to the companies or states that control the flow of said goods/produce.
Sometimes I think teachers get themselves into little bubbles with the other teachers and don't realise that compared to many they are in well paying jobs with good benefits. Sure they work hard and the job has it's pressures, so do plenty other jobs that come with similar salaries and working hours. Maybe they need to take a look around them at what others do to realise they might not have it as bad as they think.
once automation hits there will be limited need for people to do anything.
They've been saying that since the invention of the wheel, still hasn't come to much.
The industrial revolution just created a whole new set of jobs.
I doubt it will be different with the very much hyped rise of AI (most of which isn't AI at all).
There was a interesting article last WE in one of the papers about non-AI AI start ups. Rather than spend tens of millions developing the AI you just outsource the AI bit to humans in India working 12 hour shifts, which allows you to road test the concept to see if it has a market. If you get that far, then you can start developing the AI to replace the humans....