I think its like anything, you only get out what you put in. I went to a selective, all boys state school with a fantastic reputation and to be honest i squandered it. However, although academically i maybe didn't do as well as i should have done, i had some pretty spectacular experiences. From rugby tours to Japan, Hong Kong and Australia to geography trips to Iceland. All things that wouldn't have been possible at the local comp (and a lot of private schools as well tbh).
when i have kids im going to leave the decision of school completely up to them.
Sounds like Bristol is very like Edinburgh; a large amount of the middle kids go to private schools to avoid them having to mix with riff-raff. Of course this is a self fulfilling prophecy as it serves to make the small proportion of problem kids in the state sector into a larger proportion.
The idea of paying twice for my children's education seem daft to me (pay for state education through my taxes). I just don't understand where people get the 40K a year to put 3 kids through schooling...but then I'm a joiner, not a solicitor.
I wanted private (public) schooling for Jr, my wife didn't particularly but agreed to it after a particularly grim Ofsted for the local village school.
Pleased with how its going, and (at age 4.5) haven't bumped up against any of the problem friends with children in the same year are having with mixed year group classes and the like.
We may well move her to a different (feeder) school at 7, but we'll see where we're at when we get there.
Further, there's a paper written on educational attainment by birth month - big picture stats had only the privately educated summer borns not losing ground to the older kids in their cohort.
I can only offer my own experience on this but can understand why the OP might be torn on the issue. I went to what I thought was a pretty good state school. Had the option to go to private school when I started secondary - discussed with my parents many times but at the end of the day didn't want to leave my friends or travel an extra 30 mins each way so ended up in state secondary. As I said it seemed decent enough at the time to me, but my first year at a slightly posh uni was incredibly tough being surrounded by many privately educated people. I went from top of my year for some subjects to struggling to pass. Plus found it hard to engage in a lot of conversations regarding arts, literature and history. But what really stood out for me was how well read and more cultured a lot of the other students at uni were. I felt inadequate and spent a lot of time and effort trying to get on an even playing field. That said, my lack of knowledge and experience with certain things may have partly been due to other factors such as upbringing, household habits and so on. A friend of mine studied teaching and was placed in my old secondary for a placement - the tutors made it clear the school did not have a great reputation. So in short much of this is in the eye of the beholder.
I've since tutored kids in state and private education and from that experience I would not send kids to private as it can often breed spoiled, entitled little brats. But that too could be an impact of their parents.
Do your research on how good the state options actually are and think about where your kids might wanna end up if you can.
Watch it folks. You're creating a critical mass of terminal middle-classness, never seen before, even on here! 😯
If it goes nuclear, which we must be getting close too now, the whole internet will implode, taking us all with it, into the much feared Waitrosian Vortex
For everyone's benefit go and do something unthinkably non middle class!!!! Quick!!!! Eat a slice of Warburtons Toastie loaf!!!! With primula on!!! Drink a can of Stella!!!! For the sake of all humanity!!!!!
Daughter Seadog did private school until GCSE's and did very well (A* across the board). She wasn't very happy there so has moved to local state school for A Levels at her request. She's still doing brilliantly, and is far happier.
Seadog Son is at the same state school, and again doing great things.
Private schools can be worth the money, but it's not always for the best.
Markie...that something to consider both mine are summer born.
Quite surprised how many people went to private schools, I don't know anyone that did...
My school was pretty decent though but out of ~300 people my age only 1 got into Oxbridge despite there being many people with all A's. Might be something to do with his brother being there already and his dad being very wealthy
CBA reading the whole thread but isn't there quite a bit of evidence that the attitudes instilled in you by your parents when you're young are the biggest indicators of future success and that the importance of schooling standards is massively overblown?
Private schools entrench divisions and elitism and should be phased out or publicly funded and places awarded purely on merit.
Comprehensive school here and I'm alright, as are most of my mates (international human rights PhD, aerospace engineer, lawyer, teacher, graphic designer etc)
Oh and the 3 year old kid shouting to his brother axel 'f*** off kn**b head' through the class room window while his mum watched on and said nothing may have started me thinking about it a bit more. Why this shocked me I have no idea I'm hardly the most refined of people.
You're right to an extent though when you apply it the other way round, it was less common for someone with RP and talked of going sailing at the weekend to have come from a state schooled background.
...TBF when you posted:
BUT, there was nothing which ever gave away what sort of secondary eduction they had. Ever.
...you sounded as though you thought there was absolutely no way of even having a wild stab in the dark at someone's eductional background from working with/supervising them. A few regional accents that went to public school maketh not a revolution in their class structure. FWIW I can talk excellent radio 4 voice/RP for job interviews and mental health review tribunals, but occasionally a long 'a' will slip out and betray that I went to a state comprhensive school. In the south west.
Also my experience (it is junior doctors and occupational therapists round my way) is that what the term 'banter' means to you is as much an indicator of your schooling as what your banter actually sounds like or the words it consists of. I thought it was something Biggles did until I was at university and made great friends with a couple of [s]lads[/s] chaps from Stowe who seemed almost to speak another language when they spoke to each other, and just sounded like Jack Whitehall when in conversation with their less stoic (iirc also the name of the school magazine) friends.
isn't there quite a bit of evidence that the attitudes instilled in you by your parents when you're young are the biggest indicators of future success and that the importance of schooling standards is massively overblown?
Yep.
Private schools entrench divisions and elitism
It's interesting that people with little or no experience of [attending or sending a child] private schools seem to know so much about them.
I went to Public School, didnt help me with spelin or anything else. Strange to call teachers Masters, and they all wore black cloaks.
For a good insight into Public school watch the film "IF".
"Private schools entrench divisions" - perfect! All those kids with no ability to function without their parents, no real world experience, no social skills, the brats etc all stuck away in one place out of harms way. I am surprised that you are not in favour Grum!
Imagine all the nice kids having to mix which such absolute horrors. Probably put them off their studies...and then there are all the shit teachers who decamped to the private side. Would you want them back?
I went to a small Welsh primary school, state high for a year, then public school and university. It depends what you and your children want from school. Do you want good academic grades? Extra curricular activities, ? Street and urban survival skills? Good grammer? Sports?
It's interesting that people with little or no experience of [attending or sending a child] private schools seem to know so much about them.
Please explain why I'm wrong then.
THM - eh?
Do you want good academic grades? Extra curricular activities, ? Street and urban survival skills? Good grammer? Sports?
And if you don't want all those, pay to go private?
Grammer?
Grammer?
I assumed that this was a deliberate mistake, poking fun at the number of basic mistakes in the posts of those supporting private education.
One hopes so, Mike! If not, time for a refund!
😉
My daughter goes to a private school, mainly because it was our only option to keep her in English language based education (we live in The Netherlands) she mixes with children from all over the world and from a huge variety of backgrounds.
She was also in a private school before we came here although in that case it was because we weren’t happy with the teaching in the state school she originally went to (which is consistently one of the best schools in the area). The school in England was a Steiner school, and was in no way shape or form elitist.
So from my experience;
Private schools entrench divisions and elitism.
Really doesn’t ring true, not all fee paying schools are Eton.
Private schools entrench divisions and elitism.
Really doesn't ring true, not all fee paying schools are Eton.
But, by definition, even 'minor' fee-paying schools are going to be exclusive.
Personally I'd rather Steiner schools were state-funded and available as an option to everyone (as long as they don't teach homeopathy 😉 ).
There are now a growing number of state funded Steiner schools... Thanks to Gove's "Free" Schools. To suggest Steiner Schools are not elitist is mind blowing imo.
But, by definition, all schools are going to be exclusive in some way or another.
But, by definition, all schools are going to be exclusive in some way or another.
Sorry, I should have said "all schools which are only available to those able to pay are exclusively available only to those able to pay".
Better?
Things which should not influence school entry:
* parental income
* religion
Loving the expert's opinion throughout this thread.
Up until July I taught a one of Edinburgh's top day schools (independent) and am now at a Border's state school which is on the lowest rung of the poverty index.
This thread made me take a look at the website of a local private school. I was surprised at just how expensive it was, and at how unimpressive its results seem to be.
Their fees per term are about the same as we get per student per year.
So on what basis do other schools exclude others? Where you live perhaps? What happens if you live outside the catchment area?
Loving the expert's opinion throughout this thread.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
So on what basis do other schools exclude others? Where you live perhaps? What happens if you live outside the catchment area?
We don't have catchment areas. Schools have criteria by which they prioritise places and ability to buy a house in a certain area will influence ability to get into a school, but it shouldn't, and all schools should be good enough that that are no 'good' schools.
But how are the places prioritised and allocated ?
It might be worth considering like for like. a lot will depend on the state school you might send your kids to. Some are pure dumping grounds of kids who do not want to learn. I have taught 4 different classes this week at an inner city junior. Every class has a couple of kids who despite every strategy known to all sorts of experts, will not settle to work. I spent at least 15 minutes with one kid, ie 25% of a lesson when by rights he should have had 4%. this meant that the other kids education suffered. I would go a long way to put kids in a place that didn't have these.
Private schools entrench divisions and elitism
I have no problem with this. My experience and that of many of my family & friends is that our state schools practically encouraged mediocrity and I don't want that for my kids. I want them to have a better start than I did, so if a private school is the way to achieve that, bring on the division and elitism. I can only be responsible for my own dependents' education - and I'll give them the best I can afford without apology.
Very sad selfish attitude andyrm.
Truly one of Thatcher's children. 😉
But how are the places prioritised and allocated ?
That varies from school to school, and could easily be engineered to make it fairer than currently, but doesn't include the ability to fork out £12k per year per child.
I'll give them the best I can afford without apology.
Can't see them making many friends along the way if they inherit your attitude. They'll be lonely souls won't they? Probably end up hating you and wishing you'd sent them to the local comp so that everybody doesn't hate them.
Ok, mike but basically state schools may exclude pupils based on where they live, religion, ability etc depending on the type so school and pupils who do not fit whatever criteria will be excluded, correct?
The Soks offspring all went to a (good) state secondary school.
SFO1 has a 1st in both her BSc and MSc and is currently studying for a PhD.
SFO2 is currently a senior retail manager (not bad for a 23yr old, by all accounts).
SMO is in his final year at Uni and predicted a 1st.
All of them are born leaders - private edukashun? Pft!!!
Ok, mike but basically state schools may exclude pupils based on where they live, religion, ability etc depending on the type so school and pupils who do not fit whatever criteria will be excluded, correct?
Exclusion on account of location is inevitable. But there should be no exclusion based on ability, religion, etc if everything was running well and all schools were "good". If they were all "good", then location wouldn't matter either of course. Unless you're the type of person who is aghast at any changes to the status quo.
My old school which was and is private was in a very dire state ten years after I left as parents wanted to see there kids more especially at weekends. It had had a few mediocre headmasters and was struggling to fill its roll despite being a "name" school and having 600 years of history. The governing body had to react and made major structural changes, recruited two exceptional headmasters and it is now thriving and fully deserves the reputation that is assumed by many. 10% of the pupils are on fully funded bursaries, half of which have been funded in the last ten years from fund raising. The bursaries are awarded to pupils of state schools in deprived areas with whom it has developed partnerships on the recommendation of the staff of those schools based on who would most benefit from a [u]boarding[/u] education not on academic criteria.
It would be a great shame to see an institution capable of such transformation being banned for ideological reasons. Far better to learn from its experience.
Indeed, a good headmaster has never turned a badly performing state school around. It's a good job there are independent schools to lead the way when it comes to that kind of thing.
Actually the structural change of going fully co-ed was more important as it allowed it to increase its pool of potential pupils. The key is that it had the ability to adapt - a centralized system in London does not provide that to the state sector.
The last I heard, state schools in London were streets ahead of state schools in the rest of the country.
Hmmm...I'll see if I can dig our where I heard/read it. Probably won't be tonight though.
