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just gives them more for their extra money. Which whilst not part of a socialist utopian dream, is possibly fairer.
Interesting concept of fair
Put Channel 4 on now for an hour then tell me the NHS does't work. I bet you can't.
No saying it doesn't work but if you are not on the emergency priority list it can let people down when there is not enough capacity hence people can end up with more issues due to waiting than if they had gone private. It's a finite resource and can't be pulled in all directions.
I get cover for me + the Mrs through work, and pay extra to add the kids.
We've used it a few times.
My daughter had a cyst on her eyelid, had been there a few weeks, so we visited the GP. She says come back in 3 months for us to review as it is regarded as 'non-essential' and sometimes they go on their own.
We mentioned the private health insurance and a brochure is produced from GPs desk drawer.
within days we are sitting in front of a consultant (at a convenient time - early evening) and 2 weeks later she has an operation, in an NHS hospital, performed by the same consultant - early doors before he starts his NHS list.
Same daughter has had dietary problems since birth (milk + wheat intolerance) we used the health insurance to access Genetic testing to diagnose Coeliac disease before these tests were available on the NHS - the alternative (offered by NHS) was to make her eat wheat for a month and do a biopsy.
I'm not really bothered by the morals of it all - I pay enough tax to cover my access to the NHS if/when we need it, but when your kids need something and you don't want to wait, jumping the waiting list is worth the cost.
However, I am a massive fan of the NHS and feel we are lucky to have it.
PHI just gives them more for their extra money. Which whilst not part of a socialist utopian dream, is possibly fairer
In what world [ or moral code] is it fairer that your access to health care is controlled by how much money you have to pay for it?
I dont think you need to be a socialist to want everyone to have free and equal access to health care.
I work in private health care so I'm slightly biased, however this story always sticks with me.
A few years ago my mum started having headaches and general weird sensations. She went to the GP who referred her to the hospital. After the obligatory wait she had an MRI scan. At the follow up consultation which took all of 10 minutes, she was shown the scan which revealed lesions on the brain and she was told she had Multiple Sclerosis. She was sent on her way with virtually no follow up support and was absolutely devestated by the diagnosis.
I wasn't happy with the way her treatment had been handled and convinced her to get a 2nd opinion privately. She contacted the private hospital, got the consultation arranged instantly and a couple of days later went along to the private facility and was subjected to a battery of tests and examinations. Far more thorough than an MRI and 10 minute consultation.
The end result was the private treatment and tests confirmed it wasn't MS, the symptoms she'd been experiencing were aura migraines and the lesions on her brain were quite normal for a woman of her age and medical history.
I'm a big supporter of the NHS but they are extremely under resourced with massive time constraints and unfortunately this is when mis-diagnosis occurs when the doctors can't spend enough time on each patient. Going private does buy you more time unfortunately.
Also along the years the NHS have managed to un-diagnose my mother's Crohn's disease for 8 years, including telling her at one point she was "breathing too much air" and that's why she was having stomach pains. My mother in-law also collapsed one Sunday afternoon, was rushed to A&E, had a brain scan which "showed nothing". Two weeks later she collapsed again and when they re-looked at the initial scan they discovered they had failed to spot a grade IV brain tumour. 4 years later she was dead. Hard to say if that initial miss would have made any difference though.
All these people with private healthcare who are such big supporters of the nhs, make me want to strangle kittens with frustration.
It strikes me as a little like going I am not racist BUT tbh
It strikes me as a little like going I am not racist
Except it's not.
You do know countries can and do operate public and private healthcare systems in tandem and it works perfectly fine.
Private is better for speed and if you want to see Dr x and only Dr x each time. For day case or overnight stay surgery it is good.
Surgery which is anything more there is an argument to support choosing nhs.
As per posts above limiting factor in NHS is capacity. Yes consultants could work more hours but there is also the issue of paying for the extra work at a time when NHS funds are not exactly flowing!
The issue of emily more doctors is workforce modelling is difficult - leaving medical school to becoming an Orthopaedic surgeon as an example - absolute minimum of ten years. So you are always trying to guess how many doctors in x,y or z will be needed in many years to come.
As pointed out above you can choose to be seen at a private hospital through NHS treatment if it's not emergency stuff.
I have generally had it with work, I have had one bad experience where employer "self-insured" and trying to get them to pay for things was a nightmare, they did all they could to avoid paying. I have had the chance to pay for it personally before but declined. The NHS is what we need to keep us alive but it's too overstreched to deal with all our ailments and requirements.
@aa why would you want to strangle me (or anyone else) because my employer offers something as part of my job ? In fact its a condition of employment, at the cr@ppy one above I tried to opt out and they refused.
I like the French system where most people in average jobs have top up private insurance policies and you pay at the point of treatment and reclaim.
All these people with private healthcare who are such big supporters of the nhs, make me want to strangle kittens with frustration.
Why does it bother you? Comprehensive NHS care is still "free" for everyone which I think is a good thing. But I don't see a problem with paying privately for additional cover. Obviously not everyone can afford it, but if the private system didn't exist, do you think the NHS would be any better as a result?
Anyway, it's not like you are opting out of the NHS completely by going private, it's just an additional resource if you wish to pay for it. So you can actually be a fan of both systems without being hypocritical. If I have a serious accident I'm off to A&E just like everyone else. If I need long term physio or a non-urgent op then I'll probably go private because I have chosen to pay for it.
Do you expect the private system to be laid on free for everyone and if so who is going to pay for it? Or would you prefer it not to exist simply because you can't personally afford it or have chosen not to spend your money on it?
For you socialists out there, my wife's family were brought up under a communist regime (mother-in-law is a Consultant) and the quality of healthcare in that system was largely dependent on who you knew. It was apparently great if you had good contacts in the healthcare industry and f****** dire if you didn't. Is that a more fair system than ours do you think?
@BoardingBob, yes interesting story. We don't trust someone to build an extension on our house without getting a few different quotes but we treat one visit to a Doctor as definitive. I make mistakes in my job all the time, I don't see why we think doctors are any different
@aa why would you want to strangle me (or anyone else) because my employer offers something as part of my job ? In fact its a condition of employment, at the cr@ppy one above I tried to opt out and they refused.
Readings not a strong point of yours is it.
Obviously not everyone can afford it, but if the private system didn't exist, do you think the NHS would be any better as a result?
Yes or if not better the political will would exist to tax more to pay for it. Obviosly this is a utopian dream and just like private education I would not be critical of an individuals choice I would prefer it if people who feel like they need private health care to jump the waiting list or companies feel they need to provide it to help employees made more of a political case for having equal healthcare for all.
Its makes me want to strangle kittens because people seem to add the "obviously I think the nhs is great" at the end of the post but the rest of the post shows that they are happy enough with it being a bit dysfunctional.
Yes or if not better the political will would exist to tax more to pay for it.
So you would be more than happy to pay more in tax for a better NHS system for all, but presumably you're not willing to pay for private health insurance on the principle that it's not fair?
Obviosly this is a utopian dream and just like private education I would not be critical of an individuals choice I would prefer it if people who feel like they need private health care to jump the waiting list or companies feel they need to provide it to help employees made more of a political case for having equal healthcare for all.
Writing is not a strong point of yours is it. If I read the above correctly are you saying I should be boycotting the private system and making a political statement instead? Well I don't want to be a politician, I just want the best medical care I can afford for my family. It's not even vastly expensive. Anyone in an average job could choose the same. Perhaps they might have to cancel their Sky subscription or cut down on beer and fags, but it's all personal choices. This is not some elitist system costing tens of thousands per year (private education is way more elitist in this respect).
You didnt read it correctly but the again I had three kids jumping on me when I wrote it so it doesnt make much sense.
to summarise I would be critical of anyone choosing whats best for their family I would just prefer it if people made more effort to support the nhs from a political point of view if they think its so good.
you would be more than happy to pay more in tax for a better NHS system for all, but presumably you're not willing to pay for private health insurance on the principle that it's not fair?
Willing to pay more tax yes, cant afford private healthcare though.
As for the rest I think your view of average may be somewhat incorrect. You were doing well until you started with the sky subscription crap. Always the right wingers master stroke of stupidity. Stick to reading the daily mail.
Willing to pay more tax yes, cant afford private healthcare though.
How much more tax? My PHI nominaly costs £600 a year, which I pay about £250 as tax.
I'd probably be happy paying the extra tax, trying to work out how much is making my head hurt as the £250 I do pay is tax, on top of the cost of the PHI to my employer.
I just think of it as another tax, like my student loan. I wanted more out of the system, so I'm paying more in. Everyone's welcome to make their own decisions.
Everyone is not welcome to make their own decisions though about paying for private health care if they cannot afford it. Not everyone can afford it.
I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You've lost me there.
"obviously I think the nhs is great" at the end of the post but the rest of the post shows that they are happy enough with it being a bit dysfunctional.
Not happy with it being dysfunctional at all. What I am happy with is if I have a massive heart attack tomorrow, I'll be scooped up in an ambulance, taken to hospital and given excellent care.
I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You've lost me there.
The premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.
I have it via work and it's compulsory (I think)
It's an insurance and if I didn't have it I wouldn't take it out. I would self insure put the same payments into a savings account and use it if I needed it.£300 per month over 5 years is £18k enough to pay for most things and you have the NHS to back you up anyway.
If you don't need to claim for a year or 2 you're better off.
£18k enough to pay for most things
Its really not. A complicated maternity will cost about 18k. Could be a lot higher and usually is. You also won't benefit from the discounts insurer gets and you'll be paying full price for treatment.
Everyone is not welcome to make their own decisions though about paying for private health care if they cannot afford it. Not everyone can afford it.
Yep, not everyone can afford everything. I for example cannot afford a Porche and a Ferrari, on my pay grade it's got to be one or the other.
Thankfully the NHS is great and free to everyone.
I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You've lost me there.
What BB said, for whatever my employer pays for it, I have to pay more on top to HMRC,
Had it through work
Cancelled it 2 months ago after taxable benefit crept up to £1300
3 years before it was £600, company changed insurers and it started creeping up, whilst amount of cover decreased and excess rose.
The problem I had with it was work didn't tell you the value until it appeared on your P60 at the end of the year
I used it once to claim for some dental treatment, for that it was worth it but the revised policy effectively did away with it as it limited what you could claim for in a year and came with a £200 excess
What I'm saying is check the cover and excesses carefully
premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.
Blah blah blah...still have no idea what your are talking about!! Sorry.
I have it through work. Valued at c£500pa....get taxed on this via benefit in kind at the "appropriate" rate.
The NHS is like the spare ribs at a chinese buffet...there can never be enough supplied to cope with the demand of the needy who think that their £7 eat all you like contribution gets them all the prawns and fillet steak in blackbean sauce you can eat. It doesnt, someone has to pay if you want A* service. NHS is B- and thats still better than most of the world.
oh...I am a huge fan of what the NHS achieves with it limited resources despite being hamstrung by successive government policies.
anagallis_arvensis - Member
premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.
Blah blah blah...still have no idea what your are talking about!! Sorry.
Do you want pictures? Private health insurance through his employer means he pays more tax. Not a hard concept unless you are trying not to understand.
I have it through work for the family, initially through BUPA and now AXA. Wife had breast cancer last year and treated at the parkside in Wimbledon. Her initial diagnosis was via the NHS and that was super stressful. After surgery to remove the lump, the oncologist said no need for chemo as small lump with no lymph node involvement. BUPA however insisted she has the oncotype DX test, in the US to look further into the biological makeup of the lump. The test is not available on the NHS. Results came back as high risk of recurrence and she needed chemo.
The lesson here is that NHS is reactive, it fixes people at minimum cost and does not focus on prevention / cure. The private sector cannot afford to do that, as reccurrnces cost far more in the long term.
We will always have private, as long as it's available to us.
Oh, my P11D cost is nearly 3k! Has been even before the last got sick, but that is for all mod cons!
Do you want pictures? Private health insurance through his employer means he pays more tax. Not a hard concept unless you are trying not to understand.
NO just an explanation without any vitriol, obviously tough for you.
[quote=anagallis_arvensis said] Do you want pictures? Private health insurance through his employer means he pays more tax. Not a hard concept unless you are trying not to understand.
NO just an explanation without any vitriol, obviously tough for you.
Private medical insurance offered by an employer is viewed as a benefit by HMRC. As such they assign it a value which will be deducted from your annual tax free allowance. As your tax free allowance is being reduced then you end up paying more tax. That's it.
I get that thanks. Gping back to the original point, I didnt understand
How much more tax? My PHI nominaly costs £600 a year, which I pay about £250 as tax.
So his healthcare costs£350 but he pays £250 in extra tax? Does not compute.
There is no conflict between supporting the concept of "free at the point of delivery" healthcare and paying for an alternative. Of course, there is an obvious one if the suppliers of both are the same people, but my doctor friends have been playing and benefiting from that game for years.
Look on the supply side not the demand side if you want to spot conflicts and/or moral questions.
Does not compute
Ah, its the old STW classic "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I'll offer an opinion anyway"...
Most private clinics are too small to have an intensive care unit - so if even a standard operation has complications they ship you to a NHS hospital regardless..
its the old STW classic "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I'll offer an opinion anyway"...
I havent offered an opinion Ive asked for help in understanding something I dont know about.
There is no conflict between supporting the concept of "free at the point of delivery" healthcare and paying for an alternative.
A very sweeping statement and not one I agree with. The conflicts dont really lie with the individual but with how society see's the nhs. The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded. I would have no problem with people getting nicer rooms and better meals but better treatment for private patients undermines the whole thing.
The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded.
A very sweeping statement and not one I agree with. But one that supports adding economics, finance/tax (and justice) to the national curriculum?
😉
anagallis: In the example above, the cost (ie paid to the insurer) of insurance is £600.
This £600 is paid by the employer to the insurer.
The tax man sees this as payment...ie a cash value instead of actual wages of £600.
The tax man wants to tax this at the same rate as your income either 22% or 40% depending on income tax level.
He can't take this tax from the £600 directly, so they mess about with your tax code and claw it back over the year via PAYE income tax...ie out of your pay packet.
So for £600 a higher rate tax payer would pay £240 extra in tax over the year to allow for the benefit of £600 of insurance.
Understand now? 🙂
Yep got it, the way it was written didnt make sense to me I thought he meant 250 of the 600 was paid as tax not 250 was paid as tax on the 600.. blah blah
Private healthcare errodes why you need nhs ..... If anything it takes the burden off the nhs for the life threatening stuff id still want to be nhs for .....
I have nothing but good things to say about the nhs after the way they have treated my dad over the last 20 years - its very confusing being 10 and being told your 30 year old very active dad has had multiple heart attacks.
I view the private healthcare as for getting stuff fixed that is annoying or things nhs view as non time critical.
I had a frozen neck - went to see the doc , he said well by the time you get a physio on the nhs it will have sorted its self , i suggest you pay for private physio. I said oh i have bupa cover , he said great , your neck will be sorted by the end of next week , referral . Phoned , appointment made next day im in physio , 3 sessions and my necks fine.
But one that supports adding economics, finance/tax (and justice) to the national curriculum?
Its more relevant and useful than religion.
FWIW the it referred to the NHS so if you take the quote out of context it does look stupid.
The conflicts dont really lie with the individual but with how society see's the nhs. The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded.
I think most folk would agree that if you wish to erode the NHS what you do, and it is happening, is replace it[NHS] with private provision via creeping privatisation and more people using private healthcare. This is the conflict as we all know folk wont accept an absence of healthcare.
Free choice. I like the NHS but its limited resources dont give me the security and waiting times that I want/need. Is it wrong to pay extra to get into a separate queue? I am still paying for the NHS place, but am freeing it for someone else to take.
Some people on here really would have everything run from a politbureau with everything provided by the state.
Your choice is the entirely correct one. If I could get my family private health care I would. The problem is the nhs isnt providing a good enough service and I would rather that was fixed with more taxation than people needing private healthcare in order to get the care they need. If that makes me a dangerous socialist radical in your view I can live with that.
Is it wrong to pay extra to get into a separate queue?
Is it fair that you can better health care than someone else?
I am still paying for the NHS place, but am freeing it for someone else to take.
I dont think it always works like that and tbh you admit you are doing it for yourself rather than for society.
Some people on here really would have everything run from a politbureau with everything provided by the state.
Its much easier to make to beat that straw man argument than attack fairness. i assume that is why you made up that argument.
Likw a-a I would prefer we all get a better and equal service rather than just the wealthy.I am happy to listen to why this is unfair or wrong.
.I am happy to listen to why this is unfair or wrong.
So where do you draw the line? Everyone gets any and everything, private rooms for all, elective surgery. It would be great up the cost of bringing the system up to that level would be huge.
The NHS is being de-stabilised on a grand scale (for one thing, Parliament should pass an emergency act to revoke ruinous PFI contracts...) - and so it's hay-making time for private healthcare providers.
But they'll still ship you back into NHS acute care as soon as anything goes wrong.
I am still happy to listen so to repeat
Are you able to explain how it is fair that those with money get better health care or are you not able to explain why it is fair?
I dont think that has tried to answer this question tbh but it has side stepped it by posing questions.
FWIW i would imagine that any health care system, no matter how funded or delivered , would face the issues you raise so could you answer the question repeated above rather than distract with "questions"?
Comrade Junta-yard:
Yes I do think its fair that if I pay more I get more. Thats how economics works. You seem to believe that we could specify the "ultimate NHS" for all and somehow have the funds to pay for this as a country? I would support paying more into the NHS, but it will never have enough money put into it to be "the best there is", therefore it's free will if I and others (for the benefit of me, my family, not society) choose to spend some of the money we have earnt and paid taxes on for a better health care provision.
I put a lot into society and I believe in a civil society funded by a fair and progressive taxation system. I also believe that my family come first. No conflict of interest as I see it.
Interesting point about whether or not it is fair to get quicker access to health care if you are better-off. It's no more fair or unfair than the income differences between families. If you think about the health issues that poverty can bring, such as poor nutrition, inadequate housing (damp, lack of heating), etc, then surely we need to look at bringing people out of poverty as much as trying to fix the problem at the stage when the health problems have already developed?
I've been paying compulsory private health insurance through work for 13 years, and not always comfortable about being able to 'jump the queue' but I've just had a spinal fusion op done privately. My back problem was deteriorating, I was getting symptoms in my legs as well as back pain, but the nhs were not keen for a long time to even let me discuss the problem with a consultant. The surgeon told me that while the procedure was clearly not a medical emergency, I would have to curtail my sporting activities without it, so I went for it. This will keep me fitter, happier, and in better cardiovascular health in the long run.
'
Yeah, fairs a hard thing to define, but you sum it up well Vicky.
As humans I think we all have a self-interest streak, some more than others. For me thats why communism will never work, it goes against human nature to strive for better.
I also value the education and opportunities that society has given me. I earn my money from my own efforts, but its only possible for me to do that because society works. Therefore, if I take more out in salary etc then I think it fair that I pay more in for those less able to contribute. That to me is fair. Do I think it would be fair if everyone had the same? No. There will never be enough resources to give everyone everything, so give everyone a decent standard of living, good education and decent health from the state, but don't be deluded to think that the state can always give the best there is, and don't restrict free choice of those that want to pay themselves for something better.
When I 'signed up' to the NHS, I was not informed that there would be a 7 month wait for a shoulder op.
Is that fair?
Dont really understand why you think this country couldnt afford quality health care for all.
a-a: define what you mean by quality. Then tell me how much "quality" would cost more than current. Then tell me that "cost of quality"+x% would not be even better quality.
I support paying for a good NHS through taxation (and would support more funds going into it), but the reality is that there is always the +x% more that would make it EVEN better....and some people choose to pay this x% from their taxed income.
anagallis_arvensis - Member The problem is the nhs isnt providing a good enough service
Hang on a minute - it's the envy of the world, what are you saying?
if that makes me a dangerous swivel eyed RW loon in your view I can live with that.
FTFY
CR - define fair. You essentially have two competing models of how to allocate scare resources - either by price or by waiting/rationing. People will claim that both are fairer than the other. You decide...
Government spending continues to increase as a % of GDP and health has been/is a constant percentage of that. Why is every in going on about being willing to fund it? Even the Tories ring fence health and let other essential services suffer as a result.
Where do you want it (the spending) to rise to AA?
It's no more fair or unfair than the income differences between families.
Its not though is it. I have paid my fair share into the nhs in the expectation I will get good quality care back. I havent paid towards a flash car or a big house. Also the state part funds the training for all these people providing better care for rich people. So its not a simple case of fair or not fair.
Put Lord Sugar and/or Philip Green in charge. That'll sort it out.
Where do you want it (the spending) to rise to AA?
I dont know I'm a teacher not a healthcare expert but all the stories on this thread of xy and z not being done on the nhs when people think they were a matter of life and death point to problems. My step dads brain surgery was recently delayed by 2 weeks due to a lack of beds. Thats not great.
Turn the health budget into a property portfolio?????
CG....jeez no!! Lord Sugar...the maker of cheap hifi's and rubbish computers in the 1980's.
Philip Green... importer of chinese tat clothing.
We need doctors in charge not accountants. People who are led by value for money, not cheap. Would rather see the boss of Aldi run the NHS than I would the boss of Top Shop.
Well you seem to be questioning some proposed solutions in favour of spending more money. We have tried that for many generations and that does not seem to be satisfying you. So what about something different?
aa: I think we are mixing up two things on this thread...
1. Should the NHS be funded to be a good/great system? My answer is yes, and that probably costs more than we pay as a nation now.
2. Will this funded NHS (or the current underfunded one!) always be able to offer miniscule wait times and latest mega expensive procedures? No, there will always be something better than the state can fund, and for this I think its our free will as individuals if we choose to pay for something better than the NHS. I still pay my taxes for the NHS provision, so I end up paying twice.
Ok then THM hit us with your solution? I also havent seen any lroposed solution and dont recall being critical of them.
CHB I agree with point 1 and point 2 to an extent but where the line in the sand is is tricky bit. Also when we have the state subsidising the private sector I feel its way out of kilter.
NHS has failings of course it does but it's good a majority of the time and when's it's good it exceptional nothing comes close.
Dealt with a case this am in the early hours that comprised of using several crews and almost a dozen staff, there was no compromise through out, no thought of how can we get more profit out of this case, the whole time was spent making sure the patient got the best possible care. It would have cost thousands not one penny of that is for share holders or bosses, it was all for the care of the patient.
CHB - may I give one example of how 'business brains' are needed? A particular medication exists for a number of folk with a specific condition for which the usual treatment for this common condition does not work. Apologies for sentence construction!
These people are being told by their GPs/consultants that the CCG's will no longer fund this medication and they will have to take the usual treatment despite it not working for their specific condition.
There is only one supplier of this medication to the NHS and the cost is huge. Recently there were supply problems so the NHS was having to source this product from outside the UK and no doubt it cost more too.
I can buy this medication from outside the EU for considerably less than the NHS are being charged.
It's this sort of incompetence that is costing the NHS money. There is no excuse for only having one supplier!
So what about something different?
Continental social-insurance problems merely swap one set of problems for another. In terms of providing comprehensive cover, [b]NO[/b] developed healthcare system is escaping the challenges faced by the NHS.
Certain stuff is amenable to market provision - but platitudes about choice & competition become increasingly meaningless as acuity (i.e. requiring emergency/high care) increases. The current fragmentation of the NHS should concern everybody, of whatever ideological view - especially as regards workforce training and acute capacity.
the whole time was spent making sure the patient got the best possible care
This. The absolute definition of "good value".
a-a: agree...introduction of private into public has to be done VERY carefully. There are plenty of big nasty ruthless companies out there that would happily screw the NHS out of every last penny for minimal return. The PFI hospitals (and schools for that matter) are some atrocious contracts and will cost the tax payer a fortune. Perversely they were mainly signed up to by a Labour government!
However this same need for value for money and quality of service is managed in the private sector all the time. I don't believe that just because some private companies have screwed themselves a good deal out of the state, that ALL public/private enterprises are doomed.
I think an NHS and an education system where 90% of employees are working for the state is the right way of doing it. We should ensure that the 10% (or whatever figure it is) of "contractors" don't milk the system.
CG...I work in procurement. I know how skewed public sector procurement is AGAINST the state. All the rules mainly protect the companies, who litigate if the public sector buyers are not 100% following the procedures. Would not want to work in this area for a public organisation. This risks hijacking this thread though, as its a bit off topic. 🙂
This risks hijacking this thread though, as its a bit off topic
It's [i]very[/i] on-topic. [url= http://www.dropnhsdebt.org.uk/ ]PFI contracts[/url] (many, as you say, signed off by NuLav) are having a major effect on frontline care.
Edit: my post above should read "Continental social-insurance [i]systems[/i] merely swap one set of problems for another..." Doh.
This risks hijacking this thread though, as its a bit off topic.
CHB - no, it isn't. It's one example of why people like me are having to pay for private treatment as our taxes aren't spent wisely hence less money in the pot.
noteeth: happy for it to be included as "on-topic", but the start of the thread was whether private insurance is good or bad. The topic of private vs public is different for me. If private sector is allowed into public sector than it has to be arranged to be of net benefit to the public. There are some shocking contracts out there. Another thing thats a worry is the threat of USA medical companies suing the NHS for access to NHS contracts.
I am not naive to the pitfalls of what can go wrong, but just because some contracts are wrong does not make the idea wrong always.
the start of the thread was whether private insurance is good or bad
Aye - but (as per CG's post) the terms of that debate are being affected by PFI, badly-planned reforms etc, and the knock-on effect upon waiting lists, bed occupancy, overstretch in acute care (loss of elective theatre capacity, ops being cancelled for lack of HDU/ITU beds & so forth). The [mis-]management of the NHS will certainly provide opportunities for private insurance companies... now where's my tinfoil hat? 😉
Comrade Junta-yard:
If we must do childish schoolyard level insults can they at least be amusing or vaguely accurate? Do you even know what the word means ?
Yes I do think its fair that if I pay more I get more. Thats how economics works.
I doubt anyone would like to look at capitalism/economics and argue it is morally fair.
Is it really fair for the people who get less than you or less than Vicky cannot have the operation ? Really you think a two speed system is fair? I can only assume you are in the fast lane as it is clearly unfair
You seem to believe that we could specify the "ultimate NHS" for all and somehow have the funds to pay for this as a country?
Could you highlight the bit where you think I have said that - straw man BS
therefore it's free will if I and others (for the benefit of me, my family, not society) choose to spend some of the money we have earnt and paid taxes on for a better health care provision.
Honest but not fair
I put a lot into society and I believe in a civil society funded by a fair and progressive taxation system. I also believe that my family come first. No conflict of interest as I see it.
We all put our family first but in respect to this that means your fair is you and your children getting better than the majority of the rest of the population and their children - again not fair.
If you are comfortable with you having more then that is fine but , as you admit, putting them first is not fair its just self interest.
Hey, I thought that was a pretty amusing morphing of your user name, but then my humour is not for all. Junta is effectively what you have in many socialist states, and they are far from fair.
We seem to have incompatible versions of what fair means. I have explained to the best of my ability what my version of fair is. I can only wish you well if it sits incongruous to your understanding of the world.
Willing to pay more tax yes, cant afford private healthcare though.
There's your basic problem with the NHS. Lack of funding.
As you cannot afford private healthcare, you also cannot afford the extra tax required to bring the NHS up to a level where people would not consider private healthcare to be worth having.
Back on topic - avoiding the politics.
My family have Insurance (as ex pats). Free for employees but we pay for our children to be covered. Approx $1,000pa, per child. If we came back to the UK, we would, without a doubt, go private.
When our eldest (now almost 3) was born, we found out he had a congenital heart disease. Unfortunately, neither maternity nor congenital 'problems' were covered by our insurance. After much deliberation, research and sleepless nights, we decided to stay abroad (in The Philippines) and pay for the surgery out of our own pockets rather than play the health lottery back in the UK. The statistics re. op complications, mortality rates, super-bug infections etc meant we'd have sold our kidneys rather than come home. Our research included first hand experiences of people in a support group whose children had the same issues as our boy. One of those in the group sold their house to pay for private health care in the UK.
The care we received privately couldn't have been better. Even small things like the pediatric cardiologist gave us his mobile number and once answered his phone at 3am when we were worrying ourselves and wanted to talk to him.
Our son needed the op at pretty short notice (1 week) and we needed to get a 50% deposit ($15,000) within 36 hours. The surgeon, who we'd got to know well, offered to lend us the cash - a personal loan.
Having seen the hell my wife's family went through when he father was diagnosed with late stage cancer (he died very shortly after the diagnosis from MRSI), I can't help but think that the NHS is a gamble and my family's health isn't something I'd gamble with.
Just had an interesting conversation.
If you are having an operation at your local private hospital, try not to bleed too much. They only carry very small stocks of blood reserve, as obviously it costs money to buy and store it.
If something goes a bit wrong they either put their finger on the bleed and put you in an ambulance, or put their finger on it and wait for a taxi to bring more blood from the local NHS hospital.
When you get seen quickly privately, and have posh wall paper, dont forget that the expensive medical stuff that they really need, they dont buy because afterall they are there to make a profit 🙂
I used to have it through a company I worked for and used it quite a bit. Self employed now and dont have it but it is a good thing to have.