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It’s always worth restating that this is not accident or incompetence, this is deliberate, planned Tory policy.
I wouldn't just blame one political party. This is an accumulation of political incompetence over decades.
Now it has reached the break point which needs sorting out, which is not a surprise because nothing will last forever.
This is an accumulation of political incompetence over decades.
True, but our point was that one specific party has had it as a formal goal for a while. Ie its not accidental/ incedental, it is the plan
You can’t get GP appointments, so if you have something potentially serious – a nasty rash, recurring chest pains, a headache that won’t go away etc etc you’ve got nowhere else to go. It’s now called a ‘walk-in centre’ but it’s still just the same A&E, here in Cardiff at least.
Yeah, I know and understand, really I do.. The whole System is FUBAR, so it comes back to political choices by the government.
My overall view is that there must be an incentive to attract people to join NHS.
Well free parking should be a given, lol!
But I don't belive that's the main issue with health care workers...
Have you ever been in a job thats mentally battered you senseless for ten or more hours straight?
Have you ever been in a job where people are dying and there's nothing you can do about it because you only have one pair of hands?
The mental toll on NHS people, probably most especially A&E people will take its toll, they will quit due to mental health, or simply due to burn-out.
A tired and exhusted nurse or paramedic or whatever, is not going to do the best job.
The GP thing is a factor. Bear in mind there’s been a recruitment crisis in general practice for years - GPS aging out, burning out, moving abroad, retiring early due to the stress. That’s worse in more rural areas where recruitment is difficult like Devon and Cornwall. Add in that these areas saw a big influx of population due to lockdown/ work from home and that they are often popular retirement areas with a demographic that skews older.
A good friend is a partner in a big local GP practice. They are currently so stretched that they cannot offer any non - emergency appointments as all their available clinical time is needed to deal with urgent cases. Rising Flu and Covid numbers are causing huge pressure in General practice too.
Same goes to all public transports (trains and buses). NHS workers get massive discounts while travelling on them or even free etc.
[strike Do we shite.[/strike]
Ooops! I have this chest bug thing so completely misread the context as I’m wrecked. Sorry.
Well free parking should be a given, lol!
As I said above I prefer NO income tax for NHS workers earning below £45k/pa, plus others discounts from public etc.
I can guarantee the number of people wanting to work in NHS will increase significantly.
Any political activist(s) on STW, if you can get my suggestion through you have a winner. Guarantee!
You can’t get GP appointments, so if you have something potentially serious – a nasty rash, recurring chest pains, a headache that won’t go away etc etc you’ve got nowhere else to go.
Yep, nobody wants to sit in A&E for 12 hours, I was told to, over the phone by a GP at 6pm after contacting the surgery first thing in the morning.
It wasn't an emergency as far as I was concerned but I did need medical attention.
I was well enough to drive there and pay for 12hrs parking.
Still can't believe staff have to pay.
What has caused the huge increase in a&e demand?
I'm not sure there's been that huge of an increase in A&E attendances.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/378338/total-accident-and-emergency-attendances-in-england/
6.5m in Q3 of 19/20 (Oct-Dec 2019 - pre covid).
Stats for December aren't out yet, but just under 2.2m in each of October and November 2022, pro-rata'd up for the whole quarter is 6.5m.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/ae-waiting-times-and-activity/ae-attendances-and-emergency-admissions-2022-23/
The problem, as TJ says is social care. Councils have had their funding cut. They can't afford to run social care properly. Patients are stuck in wards waiting for social care plans to allow them to be discharged. Wards are full so patients who need to be admitted from A&E can't be as there are no beds for them. The really sick patients are stuck in A&E in assessment rooms and taking up time of staff who should be assessing, patching up and discharging the less sick patients, which means if you turn up needing a few stitches you're not going to get seen for hours.
And if you need an ambulance, well that's going to take ages to get to you because the ambulance is parked up at A&E, with a critically ill patient in the back of it who can't be 'offloaded' as there is no space in A&E, because there is no space in the wards, because there is nobody to give social care, because David Cameron thought the 'big society' should be looking after people rather than actual professionals doing it.
Still can’t believe staff have to pay.
Only in England and at one PFI hospital in Scotland where the scots government have no control over the contract
Much of this comes down to the logjam created by the collapse of social care. Never lose sight of that.
Much of this comes down to the logjam created by the collapse of social care. Never lose sight of that.
I agree with that.
Correct me if I am wrong but haven't successive governments shut smaller A&E departments all over the country. Concentrating more patients through the larger hospitals, without increasing capacity to the same as what was lost to these centralisation/cost cutting measures.
The local hospital to me takes patients from the edges of two neighbouring counties that used to have their own A&E departments. Last time I was there (a few years back) I had to go to the reception to get help for lady who was sat in a puddle of piss in the waiting room, I was treated in a corridor! I know of two other children's hospitals in neighbouring Lancashire that were closed/reduced capacity with the patients sent to St Marys instead.
40 Hospitals eh...remember that!
I think there is a massive branding issue behind the strikes and situation. It’s like the unions or whoever is managing it need a decent PR co.
agreed in 2015 doctors went on strike due to their revised contract T&C’s and also because they saw the impending doom. Mrs FD worked in a major trauma centre that had unsafe staffing levels back then.
Its not just a Tory thing, all political parties have done their part, even the public didn’t help with voting Brexit.
Every part of health and social care is broken, working beyond efficient capacity which then makes you more inefficient and harder to get back to the ‘normal’
Patients that require A&E are getting more complex, but the main issue in an acute hospital is getting patients out. The numbers of acutely unwell patients isn’t dramatically changing.
Its relatively easy to treat someone easily at the front door who needs a plaster on their finger and send them on their way, it’s the more complex ones that need acute care and then social care after that in essence are bed blocking and creating the delays with ambulances
More step down beds are needed in the community to take patients when they are finished in an acute bed.
And yes the NHS requires more staff in all areas. I admire the request for no income tax on less than £45k, but doctors need looking after too. If you want people to get better you need competent trained doctors, and people simply are not being attracted to the profession at the minute due to poor doctor pay and conditions
Currently Mrs FD in an absolutely stupid situation. She treats cancer patients, and her Trust want her to work extra sessions to see more patients. 1. That’s great if they had the theatre capacity and staff 2. Every time she work’s extended hours, it actually costs her money so there is zero incentive to do more hours. This is effecting many doctors !
I’m not sure there’s been that huge of an increase in A&E attendances.
Oh there has. Early figures are around 300% more than normal for this time of the year, our call records alone have been exceptional.
Correct me if I am wrong but haven’t successive governments shut smaller A&E departments all over the country.
yes - for good clinical reasons. Large A&E depts in large general hospitals are much better for major trauma
Much of this comes down to the logjam created by the collapse of social care. Never lose sight of that.
Talking to my sister who’s a senior medical professional in the NHS bed blocking is the root cause of the issues facing the NHS right now. Beds are blocked by people who could go into care homes leading to staff not having enough beds and thus focusing on the very sick in A&E. As the population ages the problem becomes more acute.
As technology has improved it was assumed less beds would be needed as day surgery would reduce overnights and thus informed the level of nurses and doctors that would be needed. Although true the fact nursing homes are mainly private and run on wafer thin margins didn’t get factored in leading to bed blocking.
It won’t be popular on here but this policy of private care provision started before the current government.
yes – for good clinical reasons. Large A&E depts in large general hospitals are much better for major trauma
Sure. But funnelling more patients through facilities without increasing capacity sufficiently seems like gambling on things not going wrong!
And yes the NHS requires more staff in all areas. I admire the request for no income tax on less than £45k, but doctors need looking after too. If you want people to get better you need competent trained doctors, and people simply are not being attracted to the profession at the minute due to poor doctor pay and conditions
Yes, of course. Just need to work out the details.
Still can’t believe staff have to pay.
Only in England and at one PFI hospital in Scotland where the scots government have no control over the contract
I should have added, I've been in paying my contractor parking while a nurse was trying to sort her parking payments out.
As an aside parking charges paid by contractors will simply be added to the bill and probably doubled.
So the key is sort out social care
This is being mentioned and then glossed over a lot in reports.
On 5Live tonight a representative of the care home owners association or whatever its called said he has 25 spare beds waiting in his 5 care homes, but the councils don't have the central government funding to even pay the reduced cost to move patients into them.
Seem to recall a few reports from hospitals where the number of blocked beds is roughly the same as the number waiting in their A&E. I can't help but think the (partial/temporary) solution is not that hard to figure out if only we had the will
Oh there has. Early figures are around 300% more than normal for this time of the year, our call records alone have been exceptional.
Fair enough, there must be some regional variation, but I’ve sat through presentations given by A&E consultants saying they are happy with the number of RESUS bays they have and in fact the number of A&E bays they have (opened recently) but it’s the bed blocking and not so ill patients or those that could in fact be streamed directly to speciality but can’t be due to bed blocking that is causing the issues. A&E is just the dumping ground for everyone and anyone as it’s the one door that is not allowed to turn people away
Blocked beds is not mainly care home capacity related - its mainly home care. Mt last job was in a rehab ward. Some areas it was a 3 month wait for home care.
I also think the number of blocked beds far exceeds the number of folk waiting in A&E for beds. I've seen numbers up to 1/3 of all hospital beds are occupied by folk ready for discharge but with no care in place to be discharged to
Its also deliberate tory policy to create crisis in the NHS so they can say privatisation and insurance based services are the only cure. Make no mistake – its deliberate
This
From which the only conclusion is this…
* the Tories, and * you if you vote for them.
Just to stress the point, the government, or what nowadays passes for one in this Mickey Mouse country, had this to say this morning
https://twitter.com/stevebarclay/status/1609957311610556416?s=46&t=VQ0QwZ4s5TEeoaUgkaR4mA
Seriously… that’s what the health Secretary, who’s been invisible, has to say about the world this morning. It’s like an episode of Black Mirror
6 weeks ago the NHS saved my life... That might sound a little melodramatic maybe, but it actually happened. I had an infection flaring up post bowel cancer surgery, I was unaware just how bad it was until it was almost too late. Having had to call an ambulance months previously and it taking 14hrs to turn up (by which time the problem had abated), my GF didn't even bother and just drove me to A&E this time... Unable to sit (infection on my arse), barely able to stand (severely weakened immune system, Sepsis taking over my body), it was obvious to all around me I was in a bad way... After 4hrs, I eventually got triaged, by which point I'm beside myself with pain... 2hrs later, I get catheterised, yet no meds administered at this time... 1/2 an hour later 2 co-codamol pills arrive (why was I catheterised at that point?!?!) to relieve my pain slightly... I spend the next 6hrs drifting in and out of consciousness...
After a little over 12hrs, I finally get admitted to a ward... Well, I say a ward, I spent the next 3hrs in a bed in a corridor, still no real pain relief, everyone banging into the bed as they run past or try to get other beds past... Then finally get moved into a ward, whereupon 1/2 an hour later the on call doctor takes a quick look at me and says "antibiotics are going to do nothing to that, we need to get you into surgery ASAP before that gets any worse!"...
But of course it did get worse, I was still at the back of a queue of other people needing surgery, and it was another 12hrs later before I went into theatre, by which point my immune system has shut down most of my unnecessary functions to survival, I'm off my tits on morphine with the strongest possible dose they can give me yet am still writhing in pain, and then I go into surgery...
All of 15mins later I was out (apparently, I was out cold for hours under general anaesthetic), infection relieved, wound packed and dressed... I woke up the following morning like a new man!
Arguably I left going to A&E a little late, but didn't want to go unless it was absolutely necessary (was on strong painkillers and antibiotics at home anyway). The fact it was 27hrs from the point I was admitted to A&E to the point they operated on me to relieve the infection that was by that point, only a few hours from taking my life, absolutely blew my mind! But I fully understand and sympathise why the situation was so, and can see how people are needlessly dying under similar circumstances.
As for why we're there... Well it's been said many times in this thread already. Systematic defunding and re-resourcing of the NHS by an extreme right wing sect masquerading as a Tory government, with nothing to lose and everything to gain by destroying it.
The thing is though, they are relying on voter apathy. The UK has become one of, if not the most apathetic and politically unmotivated country in the world over decades and decade of the two main parties fighting over the same centre ground. Obviously, this all changed with the Brexit vote, and gave the Tories carte blanche to go hard right overnight, taking many years for much of the population to cotton on to their tactics...
The problem they have now is that even the most loyal of Tory voters are mostly absolutely disgusted by their actions to destroy the NHS right now, apathy is dwindling... The people will revolt sooner or later, and it won't be a handful of disgruntled voters and a few opportunist looters, there will be mass civil unrest!
The Tories should be mindful of pushing people past the point where they have nothing to lose. I'm not saying they need to be afraid of the odd loner with a victim complex... I'm saying they need to be very, very aware of pushing "normal" people like me to the point where they feel they have nothing left to lose any more... People who have nothing left to lose don't act rationally, and will often lash out in retaliation, taking their pound of flesh or more directly from those who have directly caused their pain and suffering... I feel ashamed to say it, but I am a lot closer to breaking point myself than I would like to admit. But at the same time, I bet you there's hundreds if not thousands of people out there that are already closer to breaking point than I am!
I'm sure a few dozen of Tory MP's fighting for their lives in an A&E department that is massively overrun and cannot cope with the demand, would get the govt to reassess their priorities... Be sure that at the rate the government is going right now, someone (or some people) fulfilling the goals of their own personal vendetta is becoming an increasing certainty rather than an outside chance... You want to play with fire, then expect to get burnt...
Blocked beds is not mainly care home capacity related – its mainly home care
unfortunately now though, many elderly who end up in A&E and eventually a ward are decompensating to such an extent that they are not capable of looking after themselves by the time they get out. I think COVID and not being able to visit has prevented this from really becoming public knowledge to date, but now family and friends will see it happening
My 76 year old Dad slipped and broke his femur on the Friday before Xmas. 10hrs later the ambulance finally turned up. My stepmum tried ringing 6 times during the wait, and was told he wasn't an emergency.
They've still not fixed his leg.
6 weeks ago the NHS saved my life… That might sound a little melodramatic maybe, but it actually happened.
You are NOT melodromatic at all. Your life is saved by NHS.
I still stand by my argument that either the NHS workers get tax free or very minimum tax together with the public incentive etc. This will reduce shortages because the sector will attract more people entering. Then the other details of social care etc can be looked into later.
First thing first, if there are shortages no matter what they do they cannot cope even if NHS workers get 100% pay rise.
Instead of pay rise, with no tax or very minimum tax, that pay rise can go to fund more people to work in NHS. Yes, someone still need to do the calculation but I am sure this is a better approach.
I still stand by my argument that either the NHS workers get tax free or very minimum tax together with the public incentive etc.
I fully agree with your sentiment about properly incentivising working for the NHS... Sadly I disagree with the means... Money isn't the largest driver for people in these critical jobs. Reducing their tax liability doesn't reduce the stress of the job, or the likelihood of patients needlessly dying on the job in situations that could be avoidable!
The solution is to fix the NHS, root and branch... Which of course needed to start at least 5 yrs ago, if not 10, for it to have any meaningful effect before the next 2 general elections have happened!
I am very very fearful we have witnessed the biggest crime of our lifetimes here... Sadly I think it's too late for the NHS, no amount of public outcry or even staunch Conservatives renouncing their membership and vowing never to vote Tory again, is likely to change it. It has gone too far I think! They have won, they will break it up and sell it off to the highest bidders in no time, then they'll slink off to spend their ill gotten gains whilst Labour are left to try and pick up any pieces!
This is an accumulation of political incompetence over decades.
under the labour government waiting times for treatment reduced from 18months to 18 weeks. there may have been other issues waiting in the background to manifest for sure, but these ****s have been in power for 10 years. this isn't a 'successive governments' issue, it's a tory issue. i'll echo the other sentiments regarding those who are tories or vote tory, but i've recently been warned for avoiding the sweary filters...
If this is just Tory then Labour are not exactly doing a good job stating that as fact, in addition to how they will solve the problem. Sounds like throwing all the money in the world not going to solve things for NHS unless they just give it to local councils to fund social care and avoid bed blocking.
Paying zero tax or increasing pay with both cost the same. I am for either.
Based on two weak ass parties that I can only see making everything worse does anyone know which countries have the strongest economic outlook with nice MTB trails, but without the aging population?
Reducing their tax liability doesn’t reduce the stress of the job, or the likelihood of patients needlessly dying on the job in situations that could be avoidable!
The first stage is to encourage or to provide incentive to attract more people into NHS. The pool of of NHS workers need to increase first.
Reducing their tax liability doesn’t reduce the stress of the job, or the likelihood of patients needlessly dying on the job in situations that could be avoidable!
Yes, that's because there is no enough NHS workers, hence the stress of keeping other alive. They need more people but if there is no incentive to join NHS, the problem remains. Therefore, the starting point is to increase the pool of NHS workers. In the immediate term, I do know the solution but if the Union is arguing for pay rise that will not solve the problem in the long run. NHS workers might be happy with the pay rise but how can they improve if they have limited capacity to deal with increased number of patients? Impossible.
The solution is to fix the NHS, root and branch… Which of course needed to start at least 5 yrs ago, if not 10, for it to have any meaningful effect before the next 2 general elections have happened!
How? If you have Not enough NHS workers how are you going to fix the branch? You cannot automate health care like a machine. Hence, my view is to increase the pool of NHS workers and this must start with the attractiveness of working for NHS ... may it be financial incentive in the form of No tax or minimum tax. If you wish you can also charge people £2 to £5 per visit if there is a need. All these will mean getting more fund for NHS or at least increase the pool of NHS workers. It is better to have more NHS workers (pool) than less. Then the details can be sorted out etc.
adly I think it’s too late for the NHS, no amount of public outcry or even staunch Conservatives renouncing their membership and vowing never to vote Tory again, is likely to change it. It has gone too far I think! They have won, they will break it up and sell it off to the highest bidders in no time, then they’ll slink off to spend their ill gotten gains whilst Labour are left to try and pick up any pieces!
Nothing is too late if there is a will. As I said, if any politician is serious they can consider my solutions. Never try never know. But I bet most politicians (all parties) are just simply too afraid to do things different especially if it impacts on the "revenue".
If NHS staff get tax free or minimum tax they are just going to spend the money and the money will eventually go back to the Inland Revenue etc or back in circulation, but not sure why they are so afraid.
Sounds like throwing all the money in the world not going to solve things for NHS unless they just give it to local councils to fund social care and avoid bed blocking.
There is NOT enough people attracted to the sector. No matter what you do will Not reduce the problem. If there are no people in the social care sector (assuming it is NHS), you can have all the beds you want but if you have one person taking care of say 60 people in care, how is that going to work? Problem remains.
does anyone know which countries have the strongest economic outlook with nice MTB trails, but without the aging population?
Well that would take you outside the west / first world. Chile?
these **** have been in power for 10 years. this isn’t a ‘successive governments’ issue, it’s a tory issue.
Coming up to 13 actually, and each successive PM has ratcheted up the nastiness!
If this is just Tory then Labour are not exactly doing a good job stating that as fact, in addition to how they will solve the problem.
For reasons beyond all fathomable comprehension, Keir Starmer seems hell bent on trying to make himself appeal to margin Tory voters from the last 2 General Elections... He's asleep at the ****ing wheel, when the country needs him to not only be taking charge of a unified Labour party, but providing real vision and clarity for their 5yr plan that sees them begin to undo the damage that has been done by the Tories in the last 13yrs... He's more concerned appealing to "Mondeo Man" who he thinks is still a hardline Brexiteer, despite all the shit that has gone on!
This is gross incompetence on an incomprehensible scale by Starmer! If the NHS collapses, it will make Brexit look like a kids ****ing tea party by comparison!
This is gross incompetence on an incomprehensible scale by Starmer!
NHS is a poison chalice for most politicians to be honest.
Rules are men made so I don't know why nobody even argues for different tax regime for NHS workers considering the importance of NHS to the nation. Absolutely crazy.
Not even a single politician ever mentioned about different tax regime for NHS workers (well, at least I have never heard of).
Please post this to a twitter or insta account so that I can forward it to people that think the problems of the NHS lie with health tourists and nursing strikes....
I'm leaving this (un) sacred isle next week because it's so freaking depressing seeing the change in the last 15 years ago and the amount of apathy and blame culture that currently pervades.
**** this Government, **** the apathy that exists.
To the op, if you give up or have had enough I can fully appreciate your decision. The NHS has been treated like shite for the past 10 years. Save yourself....!
This is a supposedly first world country battling with third world problems.....
And that's before I start ranting about the state of the roads... Playing slalom along the A12 or any other road in town if a freaking joke.... Seriously... I thought the roads in Poland were bad, but I'd swap those for those in the UK right now.
I won't profess to have the answer, But I can say we have to get the tories out of government... this is the common denominator, and the common cause of continual frustration.
BE you labour, or lib dem, an another, just don't vote conservative.
I won’t profess to have the answer, But I can say we have to get the tories out of government… this is the common denominator, and the common cause of continual frustration.
BE you labour, or lib dem, an another, just don’t vote conservative.
With the situation of the world now I know whoever becomes the govt will not have a smooth sailing, that I am sure.
Longer term the solution is to get people out of poverty and get the minimum wage up. To educate and enable people to look after their own health. This will need a huge change throughout our society. We are nowhere near it yet.
The NHS has been underfunded for decades by all governments, and social care is also terribly underfunded and very poorly payed. People know this and have done for a long time,I'd like to think that things are going to change this time I really would like to but I don't (I am a social care worker)
I’d like to think that things are going to change this time I really would like to but I don’t (I am a social care worker)
It’s guaranteed that nothing will change under a Tory government. Especially this gang of grifters
They have an agenda and they’re funded by private healthcare companies
The reason you’ve heard nothing from them and they’re refusing to acknowledge the crisis, let alone address it is because all this chaos is intentional and fits in with their agenda to privatise the NHS
Never waste a good crisis - the disaster capitalist mantra - will be applied for the ‘we had no alternative’ policies that will be along shortly
ConservativeHome website reports:
"Conservative voters overwhelmingly believe their party has failed in its management of the NHS during their time in Government, a poll suggests. A vast majority (73 per cent) said they thought NHS management had been a failure in the last decade, compared to just 16 per cent who said it had been a success, according to the Opinium survey for Compassion In Politics, shared exclusively with i. Of voters who backed the Tories in 2019, more also believe their party’s austerity policies have been a failure (47 per cent) than those who believe they were a success (16 per cent). Underlining the grim electoral situation facing Rishi Sunak, more Tory 2019 voters believe education reform has been a failure (46 per cent) than a success (22 per cent).”
https://conservativehome.com/2023/01/02/newslinks-for-monday-2nd-january-2023/
73% of Tory voters claiming that the management of the NHS has been a failure for the last 10 years is a staggering amount.
And when you combine it with the surprising amount of Tory voters who think austerity, a strategy which even the LibDems supported, was a failure, it starts to explain Labour's huge lead in the polls.
It would appear that on some issues many if not most Tory voters are significantly to the left of the Tory Party.
Part of the problem is old codgers like my old man....
Moans about the rail strikes despite not seeing neither the connection orvl reliance he had whilst commuting to his city job.... "well I started on 15k a year and had no bonus", "I never went on strike", "how are people supposed to get to work?"
You tard.... You were earning x times the national average whilst playing with pretend money, without any risk to your own wellbeing, without having to make a life or death decision.... You complained when you had to pay tax on your bonus.
Yet happy to complain that the nurses get paid x whilst doing z.... All the while reading the Daily ****ing Mail. **** you!
It would appear that on some issues many if not most Tory voters are significantly to the left of the Tory Party
Mussolini would probably be on the left of the present Tory party but he didn’t vote for them and they did, so *’em’!
They should make you fill in a quick questionnaire when you get in to A&E to see how fast you get treated
1. Did you vote Tory at the last election?
2. Did you vote for Brexit?
Answer yes to both and you get thrown into the car park with some Peppa Pig plasters and a packet of paracetamol because THIS IS ALL YOUR *ING FAULT!!!
What has caused the huge increase in a&e demand? I’m not sure I’ve seen an explanation.
1) People are idiots. We go to A&E because that's what we've always done.
2) Everything else is bollocksed and it has a knock-on effect. 111 has a queue of hours just to talk to someone. Getting a GP appointment, if you're late enough to ring at 8:31am you're three hundred and ninety-forth in the queue.
3) We voted to send them all back where they came from. So that's what the NHS staff did.
We reap what we sow, it's party time in Toryland. Zero shits given by private-healthcare-enjoying motherlovers, old people are a net drain on the economy. I give it 12 months before we sell off the NHS to Elon Musk.
They have an agenda and they’re funded by private healthcare companies
As is Wes Streeting who oddly enough thinks privatization is the answer