Trucks do absolutely pound the road if it’s not in good nick,
Actually I've only just noticed the **** bit. I wasn't referring to trucks but to W⚓ wagons - as in, gigantic 4x4 that are so popular now.
Most other European countries haven't got that same issue (yet), they tend to favour smaller, less destructively heavy personal vehicles.
Most other European countries haven’t got that same issue (yet), they tend to favour smaller, less destructively heavy personal vehicles.
Well wait until the EV take over - more weight on narrower tyres!
The real culprits are HGVs, vans, etc.
Have you noticed all the recent pothole filling in? Even at the weekend's, I can only assume that it's the council's way to spend every last penny before the financial year end. I even spotted a council litter picker working last weekend.
There needs to be a better plan of looking after our roads than last minute temporary pothole repairs and the - tyre destroying - 'surface dressing' that is currently used.
The rapid deterioration of the roads around me is starting to be reflected in Strava segment names.
https://www.strava.com/segments/28655713?filter=overall
FWIW, the damage done by cars is miniscule compared to truck damage. If a road is designed for truck weights, the damage a car will do (even a full spec EV ****panzer at 3 tonnes) is at least 3 orders of magnitude less, depending on the axle configuration of the truck. (Worst case the truck could be doing several thousand times the damage).
Minor roads are a whole other issue though, even a normal 1000 kilo hatch will start breaking down the edge of a knackered road that was last maintained/repaired in the 80's. Especially when 26 different contractors have had a bit of it up in the last 5 years, and none of them doing a proper repair afterwards.
The weather is always shit so the repairs don’t hold well and even the slightest lump in it will lead to vehicles crashing over it which sets up vibrations and starts destroying the remaining repair.
Oooh, i dunno. We have utterly terrible weather and the roads are OK. They do spend a lot of time doing proper repairs though. And drainage is cleaned regularly.
(they do get worse the closer you get to the arctic circle though... and the drainage worse)
is starting to be reflected in Strava segment names.
And to be fair to NTC this segment needs renaming as its possibly now the finest, smoothest, loveliest bit of tarmac around 🤣
Roads in Powys used to be excellent. A combination of relatively high spending and lower traffic levels.
Now the council budget has been cut by 1/3 for the last 10 years and traffic levels have increased (relatively cheap motoring costs, high disposable incomes and crap public transport), they have gotten measurably worse.
It takes several years for potholes to become endemic, so you don't really notice at first. It also takes years to get on top of the problem. Moving freight onto rail and shopping more locally would definately help as HGV's are the biggest culprits in road damage.
I forgot to mention this in my post. What has made things worse, given the escalating nature of the headlight brightness war going on, is the lack of, missing or crap, cats-eye’s/marker posts etc and white lines on the roads. Driving at night, especially in the rain etc, is a lottery.
Some councils have adopted this as a road safety policy - if you can’t see the markings, then you’re forced to slow down. The road just a few metres from my house, which used to be the A350 had the centre line deliberately removed when cycle lanes were put along the edges to force drivers to slow down. Then the footpath was turned into a shared-use path but the road markings have remained. Or not, as the case may be.
For the last eighteen months or so I had a real problem with glare from oncoming headlights, to the extent I was forced to almost come to a standstill because I just couldn’t see the edge of the road.
Fortunately, the problem has been solved by having the cataracts in my eyes treated, which means no more glasses other than sunglasses and reading glasses! Hallelujah! 😎
Have a buckled alloy to prove just how bad they are.
A little better but noyt much but given that Westminstr hold the purse strings and stop the devolved governments actually having the money to spend on stuff
It's always someone else's fault. The Scottish government is responsible for deciding how to spend its revenue (and it receives more from central government per capita than is allocated in England btw). The SNP holds its own purse strings (strictly speaking, sporran strings). And if it wants even more money, it can raise income tax.
But somehow Westminster is still to blame for potholes in East Stirlingshire or wherever. 🙄
It's not just about the cost per head though, especially when the population is more spread out, travel costs and it's harder to have large centralised services without ignoring a large part of the population.
Take a bin collection for example, in an urban area, which much of England is, to collect the rubbish from a hundred people may only need the bin lorry to travel 50m. In a more rural area, which a lot of Wales and especially Scotland are, the bin lorry could easily travel 5-10km to collect a hundred people's rubbish. That is why a per head payment should not be like for like.
And back to roads, that is more to repair further from where people are based.
Take a bin collection for example, in an urban area, which much of England is, to collect the rubbish from a hundred people may only need the bin lorry to travel 50m. In a more rural area, which a lot of Wales and especially Scotland are, the bin lorry could easily travel 5-10km to collect a hundred people’s rubbish
This is complete and total cobblers. Bigger per head spend isn't a result of bin lorries travelling across windswept desolate moors. 🤣Practically no-one bloody lives there! Scotland is one of the most heavily urbanised countries in the world. "91% of Scotland’s population live in 2% of its land area": https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/news/2022/91-percent-of-scotlands-population-live-in-2-percent-of-its-land-area
But to collect the bins of the other 9٪ could cost as much as it does to collect a quarter of the urban population, possibly more as this report is from England. Recurring themes are cost of travel, travel downtime and diseconomies of scale along with reduced income opportunities for authorities for regulatory duties of 50%.
K">
The SNP holds its own purse strings (strictly speaking, sporran strings). And if it wants even more money, it can raise income tax.
Errmmm - this is so not true. SNP tax raising powers are very limited and designed by westminster to be only able to be done in ways the SNP would not want to do
Scottish total budget is controlled by Westminster apart from a couple of % variation. the Scottish government want to spend more on roads that means cuts elsewhere
Also tax raised in Scotland is higher per head than spending - we subsidise the rest of the UK
But to collect the bins of the other 9٪ could cost as much as it does to collect a quarter of the urban population, possibly
As an example, it takes approximately 4 hours to do the bin collection for my loop of countryside, which is about 15 different dirt tracks linked and looping off a 10km stretch of road and includes approximately 100 houses.
After lunch they go into the village proper and a couple of the old housing estates and clear about 350 houses and apartments.
Also tax raised in Scotland is higher per head than spending
I assume you have a credible source for that or is it TJ wishful independance thinking?
In 2021 to 2022 spending in Scotland was £97.5 billion, tax receipts including oil revenues was £73.8 billion, so Scotland was subsidised to the tune of £23.7 billion.
Read up on the GERS figures. they are deliberately designed to understate scotlands financial position
Edit - you also need to look at this over a number of years not a one year and a bad year at that snapshot
Why would I care what the staunch mob have to say about taxation?
to collect the bins of the other 9٪ could cost as much as it does to collect a quarter of the urban population
...and yet the rural population (as percentage if total population) of England is exactly the same as Scotland - 17%.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/rural-scotland-key-facts-2021/
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rural-population-and-migration/rural-population-and-migration
Am really enjoying this narrative of Scotland needing more funding per cap because the bins are further apart.
the Scottish government want to spend more on roads that means cuts elsewhere
...in which tjagain discovers the scarcity of resources. Yeah, obviously you have to decide what you spend the money in your sporran on, and in Scotland it's the SNP (at Scottish Govt level) and councils that decide roads spending. And if you want more money in your sporran, you can raise income tax. And yet it's still Westminster's fault that Scottish roads are bad.
Is the SNP responsible for anything? Is there any problem in Scotland that isn't Westminster's fault?
Well who controls the overall budget?
That's right, Westminster. We get our "pocket money" (if you want to use a crap analogy) to spend on what we like. But that is a percentage of the overall budget as decided by the Barnet formula. No additional spending by Westminster means less pocket money. If Westminster spends more we get more. Its really not that difficult.
Why would I care what the staunch mob have to say about taxation?
Try looking at facts and methodology rather than instantly dismissing things because they upset you.
And if you want more money in your sporran, you can raise income tax
Been dun and as above the tax raising powers are a deliberately poisoned chalice. Read up on it. The levers the Scots government ( not to be confused with the SNP as the government is a coalition) have raised as much tax as they can within the allowable variations without penalising the low paid and the tax raising powers are very limited
So if you want more roads spending where do the Scots government cut? Thats the question.
BTW - the use of Sporran as you have is pretty offensive.
Oh, and to get back on topic Scotlands roads are in a shit state and have been for years. Certainly in the wetter parts of the country at any rate.
Turns out a minimum of 60 profile tyres equals comfort and even then you still end up getting the occasional shock. I wouldn't consider 45s particularly low profile but they are noticeably worse and still outside the instant shredding zone (I do however spec XL sidewalls).
Oh and whoever suggested a maximum £100 claim, I hope you put your money where your mouth is if you ever need to claim. I assume that applies to bikes as well since I'm sure any council claims officer would.
Try looking at facts and methodology rather than instantly dismissing things because they upset you.
I think that joke went over your head - or maybe it just wasn't funny. 🤷♂️
We get our “pocket money”... to spend on what we like...If Westminster spends more we get more. Its really not that difficult.
Yeah, exactly. Scottish legislators decide how to spend the money allocated to them - which by the way is more per capita than is allocated to England. This is just like anyone else in the world that has a limited budget. No-one has infinite money. But the good news is that if the Scottish Parliament wanted even more money for thr government, it could raise income tax at the national level and council tax at a local level.
But still, iT's wEsTmInStEr's FaUlT...
Its been explained to you why the tax raising powers cannot be used like you think they can. I think you really need to read up on it
Anyway - this is not the thread for this
BTW – the use of Sporran as you have is pretty offensive.
Sporran just means "purse" in Gaelic. And tbh I (a Scottish person) am not going to be lectured on this point.
Well as one Scot to another give the shortbread tin shite a rest.
Anyway, you're clearly just agitating as you've had the reasons why your argument is pish pointed out to you but still persist. I'm done.
Hiya,
During the referendum I was educated to the fact that the reason euro roads are so good is that we paid for them.
Amazingly that doesn’t seem to have been true.
Along with hospital queues our roads are the most potent signs that Tories are horrible , useless ****.
That's because Toy's are the "muddle management", that you have to deal with in most companies. They don't fix issues, that's for the guys they subbed it out to, so they don't have to get their hands dirty ;-(
Where I live a road was completely replaced and perfect. The first question to a local tory Councillor was, which one of you live on the road?
In fairness my road gravel bike route I have mastered my bunny hops over most of the gaping holes.
BR
JeZ
…and yet the rural population (as percentage if total population) of England is exactly the same as Scotland – 17%.
Need to be very careful using definitions as vague as that.
I'm in a rural location, but there are 50-60 houses within 2km as the crow flies. (One of them is an ~8km drive to get to, but that's not the point.)
My in laws old place was also rural, they only had 3 houses within 2km (and maybe 30 houses within ~5km) and that property density was applicable for something like 25km in 3 directions.
Both rural, but completely different levels of work to provide services.
Just have to look at population density maps to see the difference.
Population density
Just have to look at population density maps to see the difference.
Well, yeah - it shows that the Scottish population is highly concentrated into a small geographic area. The idea that government spending in Scotland needs to be higher than in the rest of the UK because "the population is more spread out" is rubbish.
Our council must have invested in an inappropriately sized surfacing machine, as any road that requires resurfacing needs to closed in both directions for weeks on end. The ill thought out diversion routes then disintegrate.
Or road was due to be resurfaced and as local business couldn’t cope with a full road closure the council just said ‘it can’t be done because of health and safety’ and cancelled the resurfacing job. Maybe if you had invested in the right equipment for the size of UK roads…
I find it strange that with all the terrible stuff happening in the world, potholes seem to cause such anguish to so many
Well, I gave my clubmate CPR and watched him die in front of me when he went over the bars having hit a pothole. The settlement was more than Surrey Council’s total budget for fixing potholes - that was their three year budget. Killing financial directors by poor road maintenance is a false economy. Or not? It’s not just punctures and alloy wheels.
The idea that government spending in Scotland needs to be higher than in the rest of the UK because “the population is more spread out” is rubbish.
Better tell that to every post war UK government that you know better. have you ever actually been to the highlands?
The idea that government spending in Scotland needs to be higher than in the rest of the UK because “the population is more spread out” is rubbish.
Anyway, you’re clearly just agitating as you’ve had the reasons why your argument is pish pointed out to you but still persist. I’m done.
Robola, do you have any experience in highways repairs, or construction in general?
Edit.
Sorry, should probably add that I do and there is likely a very valid reason for requiring a full closure for highway repairs.
Robola, do you have any experience in highways repairs, or construction in general?
Do I need to? Similar sized roads routinely resurfaced with one side at a time closed, traffic lights etc. Pretty simple observation that it used to be possible, (and still is in other areas) now all of a sudden full closure required.
have you ever actually been to the highlands?
tbqh, champ, this is not a topic that you want to personalise.
the council just said ‘it can’t be done because of health and safety’ and cancelled the resurfacing job. Maybe if you had invested in the right equipment for the size of UK roads…
In a previous job, I was (peripherally) involved in the consequences of a guy being killed on a highways job. It was very unpleasant for everyone involved, but particularly for his wife and kid. You can assume that someone at the council and contractor has thought very carefully about whether the road needs to be closed in both directions.
You can assume that someone at the council and contractor has thought very carefully about whether the road needs to be closed in both directions.
Haha, yeah right.
With zero consideration for sending heavy traffic down completely inappropriate minor roads that are themselves dangerous with eroded edges.
Can we officially take the position that a tyre profile of less than xx is not fit for purpose for the UK’s roads? It would be fun just to see the reaction on pistonheads.
I find it strange that with all the terrible stuff happening in the world, potholes seem to cause such anguish to so many
Tyre profile shouldn’t make any difference, and in any case, there is a legal responsibility to make sure roads and road surfaces are fit for purpose. Cycles and motorcycles are particularly vulnerable, and people can be seriously injured and killed. A mate was lucky to escape serious injury after he came off his motorbike on his way home from work. First on the scene was an off-duty police motorcycle officer, who took control, did all the checks and helped my friend get home. He came round a few days later, and reassured my friend that he’d done nothing wrong, in fact the police officer often rode that road, and he considered himself lucky the same hadn’t happened to him, because the gritted surface had worn away, leaving bare, smooth tar, and my mate’s tyres had lost grip and dumped him on the road. He’d been doing about 50-ish, all his bike gear was trashed, including his gloves, his helmet was practically worn through, and his nearly new Honda 600 was written off. Just because of inadequate road maintenance.
The road outside my house is appalling, it’s just an urban road but it carries a lot of traffic, including fire engines when they’re on a shout to the south, the surface has been broken up and shows three or four layers of previous surfacing, like geological strata.
I’ve had two near-side alloy wheels trashed on the inside edge through hitting the edge of deep water-filled potholes, one of which bent the rim outward, without me being aware of it; I only found out how bad it was after taking the car in to have the tyre checked because there was a persistent slow leak. That could have caused a catastrophic blowout on a motorway… 😳
This week we have had the path outside our house resurfaced, the dropped kerbs made bigger and the verges given proper edging.
We are very pleased with the results but there was nothing wrong with it before, unlike the road which has bloody great holes in it.
The budget has given 200m to fill potholes, ocean and peeing comes to mind.
The budget has given 200m to fill potholes, ocean and peeing comes to mind.
An additional £200m, on top of the existing £500m.
Where I work has £1.35m of that fund allocated to us so our thinking is that is there's a 40% increase to the fund overall, it might go up to £1.89m automatically.
Still not a lot though. It's the equivalent of turning up to a disaster zone with a first aid kit and a roll of bandage rather than an entire field hospital.
I reckon there's plenty money, it's just the people entrusted to spend that money are both hamstrung and incompetent from top to bottom.
Hamstrung because a simple fix to the road needs full traffic control and a couple of guys sitting in a pickup all day. Changing that system back to the better way it wad in the 80's would be nice.
Water being allowed to sit on the road surface is behind the vast majority of the damage I see on the roads.
Simple preventative maintenance would fix most of it, but incompetence...
We are very pleased with the results but there was nothing wrong with it before, unlike the road which has bloody great holes in it.
Pavements will probably be local council, road will be highways - joined up thinking at it's best again. "Different budgets guvnor, gotta spend it".
Pavements will probably be local council, road will be highways – joined up thinking at it’s best again. “Different budgets guvnor, gotta spend it”.
That's a popular myth (about the budget thing) but it's not entirely true. It's relatively easy to move stuff around or to have projects across financial years so you can announce a project in February using funding from that year but it can start in April - you just roll the funding forward since it was effectively in the previous year's budget.
The piecemeal nature of the funding, where you constantly have to apply for grants, wait to be told how much you'll get (and then have that figure chopped and changed a couple of times because the Government like to remind the little councils who is in charge) before finally being awarded the money is what makes it difficult to decide on projects and timelines.
Roads are problematic though, it's common enough to find a road under the jurisdiction of 2 councils. Near mine there was a landslip issue right on the council boundary but to fix it, they have to have access to a field at the side. No-one could find out who owned the field. Absentee landlord with a string of tenant and sub-tenant "owners" and it took 3 years to resolve the land ownership issue and get access to the site, each council bickering over who was leading and then Council A had no money but when they did, Council B had spent their allocation, then they both had money but still no access to the land at the side.
Someone came along and put some balloons and banners up on the roadwork's 3rd birthday.
Took 2 weeks to fix it once everything was actually in place.
