[Closed] Political Correctness (Gervais, Twitter, possibly offensive word content)

There's a lot of sense in what Stewart Lee says but at the same time I think there's a big difference between language and the intention behind language.

Yes, the term Mong would be offensive when used to describe someone with Down Syndrome but wouldn't it also be offensive to call someone with Down Syndrome an idiot?

At the same time, why is it OK for me to call my friend an idiot for doing something stupid but not OK to call him a mong?

For a lot of people the original definition for mong has been lost. I'm thirty and I had no idea it was used to describe people with Down Syndrome until I read this thread. Mind you, I don't think I've ever used the term mong at all. I prefer ****tard.

But yes, Gervais is being a ****.

Does your favourite one relate to graphic designers by any chance?

Sadly the term "Mong" seems to be used increasingly in schools. My son has had it used against him. He wasn't upset but when I reminded him that his friend's sister has DS he recognised that is was not a term that should be used.

But it is a hard thing to know where to draw the line - looney, special needs etc. All of these terms are derogatory and best avoided. But comedy often feels the need to tread on these kinds of toes.

On the PC issue and comedy. I noticed that Mock the Week did a joke section on the Bible. Can you imagine if this had been about other religious works. Why is acceptable to joke about the Bible in isolation? Either all or nothing, surely?

So do Mongolians get pissed when people with Downs Syndrome are refered to as Mongs? Probably not.

"The World Health Organization (WHO) officially dropped references to mongolism in 1965 after a request by the Mongolian delegate"

Yeah, I think they did get a bit miffed (earlier than I thought, thought it was the late 1970s).

I'm reporting a number of people on this thread, including myself. Expect bannings people! 🙂

The implication of calling someone a mong is that it is that to have Down Syndrome is to be deserving of ridicule. Most of us wouldn't laugh at someone with Down Syndrome but people do - mostly kids perhaps but we're supposed to grow out of it right?

For a lot of people the original definition for mong has been lost. I'm thirty and I had no idea it was used to describe people with Down Syndrome until I read this thread.

I'm thirty too and I did know the association.

At the same time, why is it OK for me to call my friend an idiot for doing something stupid but not OK to call him a mong?

I think the difference is that idiot has gone much further in losing it's original meaning - whereas for many people mong hasn't. I also think as someone mentioned above talking to your mate is different to broadcasting things on the internet. Something people often seem to forget on here too.

If I find a comedian funny, he can say whatever he/she wants in the context of his/her act and I'll laugh. I see no place for political correctness in good comedy.
Other people might and that's their choice.
By the same token, if I don't find a comedian funny, I don't f*^ing listen to them, so I cannot be offended by what they say.
For example, if Patrick Kielty used "Flid" in his act, I wouldn't complain, cos I wouldn't KNOW ABOUT IT. Not until all the internet whingers came out and made it news. Then I still wouldn't complain, because he's crap and I don't care enough about him to be bothered.
Christ, the World is pathetic these days. I'm getting off.

Of course the other part of this is that Gervais was doing this with what he called his 'mong face'. I wonder what he thought the face was meant to represent? probably not someone too stoned to move. As others have said, there may be some contexts in which 'mong' is acceptable, but it sounds to be that here he was mimicking someone for laughs. That's just not defensible.

wow the serious side o Dr CM and he is correct
Not a phrase or term i would use

Then again i dont refer to rubbish things as gay o rwish I could still but gollywogs.

I suspect when most people use these words they dont mean the offence that is actually there.

I interrupt this thread for my favourite pie chart:

[url= http://farm1.static.flickr.com/102/291635623_c389454338.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm1.static.flickr.com/102/291635623_c389454338.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

We now return you to your normal programming.

I think the difference is that idiot has gone much further in losing it's original meaning - whereas for many people mong hasn't. I also think as someone mentioned above talking to your mate is different to broadcasting things on the internet. Something people often seem to forget on here too.

Isn't it better to allow these terms to lose their original meaning over time? Language changes all the time and I think we spend too much time concentrating on the language rather than intention. If I knew someone who used every un-PC term going but never used them to cause harm to someone else then I wouldn't have a problem it.

Someone who religiously avoided every un-PC term but did their best to make people with Down Syndrome feel like their lives were less important I would have serious issues with.

Dear fans. Don't give the haters any attention. Those people aren't really offended by the things I say - they are offended [s]by my success[/s] because I'm an untalented t**t

So its true he has disappeared so far up his own arse he cannot even see reality.
He probably actually believes that what a shame

f I knew someone who used every un-PC term going but never used them to cause harm to someone else then I wouldn't have a problem it.

Someone who religiously avoided every un-PC term but did their best to make people with Down Syndrome feel like their lives were less important I would have serious issues with.

The chances of this occusring are very slim.
It is far more likely that someone who uses derogatory terms agress with these attitudes [ but not always.
If someone call someone a **** what would you think for example?
You are correct though we[ me and my fellow PC brigader thought policers] are trying to eliminate attitudes not words. Words do often refelct your attitude though

If someone call someone a **** what would you think for example?

Well, if someone calls someone from the Asian sub-continent a **** then it's probably meant to be offensive.

I've never heard of anyone calling someone a **** in any other context.

I've never heard of anyone calling someone a **** in any other context.

I'm quite dark and was called a **** occassionaly in my youth. And 'Gadaffi's son' when we were angry with him in the 80s 😉

So do Mongolians get pissed when people with Downs Syndrome are refered to as Mongs? Probably not.

"The World Health Organization (WHO) officially dropped references to mongolism in 1965 after a request by the Mongolian delegate"

Yeah, I think they did get a bit miffed (earlier than I thought, thought it was the late 1970s).

Wasn't the name of the Mongolian delegate Downs? So, they named the syndrome after him.

Another interruption, one of my favourite pie charts:

[img] [/img]

Why is acceptable to joke about the Bible in isolation? Either all or nothing, surely?

Christians tend not to send in bombers when you criticise their religion (outside of Northern Ireland, anyway).

"The World Health Organization (WHO) officially dropped references to mongolism in 1965 after a request by the Mongolian delegate"

Isn't that where offence is actually justified? We've got this arse-backwards. Referring to Down's Syndrome as "mongolism" because sufferers allegedly resemble people from the Mongol Empire must surely be [i]way[/i] more offensive to people hailing from, say, modern day Mongolia.

If we started referring to jaundice as "Japanism," I'd expect the Japanese might have more to say about it than the jaundiced.

I'm with Stewart Lee on this, but it's also about context: there are words that I'll use in some situations, but not in others.

Of course, if I were a massive self-publicist I might deliberately use a word that I know will be controversial knowing that the people who buy my books/DVDs will think I'm a genius for being "anti-PC".

Why is acceptable to joke about the Bible in isolation? Either all or nothing, surely?

Presumably, the comedian was from a Christian background, as were most of his audience? If he made a joke about the Muslims and their massive golden horse, the audience wouldn't have got the joke.

Well, if someone calls someone from the Asian sub-continent a **** then it's probably meant to be offensive.

I've never heard of anyone calling someone a **** in any other context.

Is there a shop near you run by a dark-skinned guy with a turban? What's it called? What was it called in the 70s/80s?

I wonder if this problem would disappear if we replaced the term "political correctness" with "common decency"?

Try reading some of the above comments and substituting the latter for the former.

if someone calls someone from the Asian sub-continent a **** then it's probably meant to be offensive.

This is a classic example, isn't it.

"****" is a contraction of ****stani, ie, someone from ****stan. Nothing more, nothing less. It's no more offensive in and of itself than calling someone from Scotland a "Scot."

The problem stems from it being commonly preceded by "f---ing" and succeeded by "bastards" by racist halfwits in the 80s. So now it's deemed to automatically be a racist slur, which is frankly bloody stupid.

You are correct though we... are trying to eliminate attitudes not words. Words do often refelct your attitude though

Excellent way of putting it. Words are just words. Except when they aren't.

Mogrim, that's more of a tart than a pie isn't it?

Sorry, I mean a sex professional.

Is there a shop near you run by a dark-skinned guy with a turban? What's it called? What was it called in the 70s/80s?

A sikh shop?

🙂

miketually - Member
Of course, if I were a massive self-publicist I might deliberately use a word that I know will be controversial knowing that the people who buy my books/DVDs will think I'm a genius for being "anti-PC".

I don't think he is that clever - I think he genuinely does not understand.

Couldnt agree with you more chakaping. It's too easy to act like an offensive nobber, and then attempt to justify it by accusing people of being 'pc', as though they're the ones in the wrong. Even so, I'll stand by my earlier comment that I have bigger concerns than the juvenile remarks of a smug chancer.

Idiot is a Greek word meaning person with no professional qualification

In ancient times used to imply someone with no interest in politics IE civil life. so stupid and self centered .

It's a term of abuse I'll carry on with.

As a teenager cretin was my favorite insult till i went on exchange to France and started to mortally offend people i liked.

The origin of Mong is really not that obvious today but once you know it's origin it is hard to ever justify using it.

The stuff about attitudes is dead right.

Whether or not Ricky Gervais meant any offence, his loyal followers certainly did when they started flaming people who expressed their offence with the same insult. That's just nasty and disrespectful.

Is there a shop near you run by a dark-skinned guy with a turban? What's it called? What was it called in the 70s/80s?

Fair point, hadn't though of that.

However, if it had just been used to describe the shop then I don't think anyone would have been offended, any more than referring to a Norwegian as a Noggy is offensive now. As mentioned above though, it was so often used in an offensive way that the word itself became offensive.

The problem stems from it being commonly preceded by "f---ing" and succeeded by "bastards" by racist halfwits in the 80s. So now it's deemed to automatically be a racist slur, which is frankly bloody stupid.

You cannot ignore the way a word is used from its actual meaning.
I am not sure the n word was actually derogatory to start with either and was meant to be descriptive but it use has led to it being what it is ....deemed so offensive we only say the n word.

Other examples include the way we often hear word stupid woman [ probably stupid bastard for a man I assume??/], bloody women drivers rather than just stupid or bloody bad drivers

Clealry they convey something about the speakers views.
Yes we should be able to use **** like we use Scot but we cannot for the reason you state.
My white mate [teacher in a primary school] working in Burnley is on a one man mission to reclaim it though...it has not worked yet.

Blimey! You learn something new every day!

*wonders about the etymology of thick

Is there a shop near you run by a dark-skinned guy with a turban? What's it called? What was it called in the 70s/80s?

Are you saying all corner shops are run by Asians? Racist.

You refer of course to the "**** shop,"(*) or corner shop. What are it's distinguishing features? Well, it's a shop, it's on a corner, and it's run by a gentleman from ****stan. Why is one of those facts offensive and not the others? Are we suggesting perhaps that there's something inherently wrong with being from ****stan?

I went to the Chinese chip shop yesterday. At the weekend I might go for an Indian. Why aren't these offensive terms when '**** shop' is?

(*) - Incidentally, when I was little, we always referred to the shop in question as the 'offy' or off-licence.

I went to the Chinese chip shop yesterday.

Though I think you're missing mike's point - if I've understood correctly, he was pointing out that not all uses of the word "****" are offensive.

Wasn't the name of the Mongolian delegate Downs? So, they named the syndrome after him.

Named after John Langdon-Downs who defined the condition and ran Normansfield Hospital in Teddington.

[url= http://langdondownmuseum.org.uk/ ]Langdon Down Museum[/url]

Coincidentally, stumbled across this just now...

http://www.viddler.com/explore/stevanhogg/videos/508

Not the funniest comedian in the world, but he's got a bloody point.

The origin of Mong is really not that obvious today

You say that, but I'm genuinely surprised at how many people here have said they didn't know what it meant. I guess it's not that common a word, but I thought its meaning was pretty common knowledge.

My white mate [teacher in a primary school] working in Burnley is on a one man mission to reclaim it though...it has not worked yet.

I'd suggest that he's on a hiding to nothing, and going to get into trouble. If he was ****stani himself then I'd applaud him.

I'm actually expecting the British ****stani community to retake '****' at some point, in the same way that the gay community have retaken 'gay' (and a host of other words).

I do wonder if the problem isn't the demographic in question (****stani / gay / whatever) taking offence per sé, but us automatically seeing it without looking at context / intent.

I went to the Chinese chip shop yesterday. At the weekend I might go for an Indian. Why aren't these offensive terms when '**** shop' is?

Because you are not using similar terms - ****stani is the nationality. **** is a phrase used as a slur. The equivlent would be "chink" of "gook" for chinese

Why is one of those facts offensive and not the others?

I think this might be the reason

The problem stems from it being commonly preceded by "f---ing" and succeeded by "bastards" by racist halfwits in the 80s.

It was a term used by racists and still is.
I would rathe be a **** than a whomever the engerland are playing at football for example
EDL targetting these areas
Both quotes are yours so i dont really undersatnd why you are asking tbh.
It is not simply a [respectful] contraction as words have meaning based on their usage

EDIt : I miised your post posting mine

Yes it is not universally accpeted or praise dbut he argues they should take ownership and use it remove its power to insult like gays have. I see his argument and hope it works but it would be better done by a **** [ used in his way not the racist way]- he has a long way to go I am not comfortable writing that and even added a qualification which was probably not needed

Though I think you're missing mike's point - if I've understood correctly, he was pointing out that not all uses of the word "****" are offensive.

Ah, yes, I did.

And I'd agree with that, with a caveat. Not all uses of the word are intended to be offensive, but it's almost universally accepted that "you can't say that" because it [i]is[/i] offensive.

Why are words more important than the meanings and intentions behind them?

they are not but it is impossible/ very difficult to seperate the two without a long conversation [ knowledge of the speaker] so you tend to assume the person knows what th word means and means what the word does.
It would be daft [ and time consuming] to assume they dont know the meaning of the words they use when conversing with someone.

Because you are not using similar terms - ****stani is the nationality. **** is a phrase used as a slur. The equivlent would be "chink" of "gook" for chinese

Gook is hardly a contraction of Chinese. (It's also nothing to do with the Chinese, it's a Filipino slur). But, ok. Compare and contrast:

A guy hails from ****stan. His nationality is ****stani. Can we refer to him as a ****?

A guy hails from Turkey. His nationality is Turkish. Can we refer to him as a Turk?

A guy hails from Scotland. His nationality is Scottish. Can we refer to him as a Scot?

Cougar - Pak would be the contraction in that way- you cannot use "****" simply because of the way it has been used as a slur.

Myself I would prefer to use the names the peoples give to themselves - so in this instance it would be ****stani.