Andy, are you a policeman, yes or no?
You seem to be avoiding the question. Wonder why..
There are several on here, one of whom I owe a pint or two to. Given nature of the discussion, I feel it's relevant to know if you are. I'm neither a MP nor a policeman, but I sense your opinions are framed by being one of those. ?..
yes I have helped to save somebody's life - putting my own at risk in the process
There is a song all about at it
Are you thick? I said " a police officer defending ridiculous theories!" Of course I'm a police officer. The answer is yes. I await your earth shattering point. (Or more likely I'll be asleep..........).
im sorry but i dont buy the line of "most police are brave individuals and the general public would be too scared to do their job". every time i have 'needed' the police they have let me down, it has been me who has retrieved my stolen bike, my stolen cars, my stolen dog!, my camera, chased down a car who had knocked my mate off a bike in front of a sargent (yeah he was on the cctv looking, than looking away), my tools from site, tried to drag roided up bouncers off my mate in front of a wagon full of police power rangers.......shall i go on? while the police have repeatedly lied, bullied and extorted money from me (£200 to get my car out of a compound after it had been stolen?).
ACAB in my personal opinion/experience.
its about time the politicians learned it cos they sure as hell don't work for 'us'
There, wasn't so hard, was it?
So, about the other points above...all OK to conspire and lie, as long as you're a copper, eh?
As i have said several times - dishonest police and mp's should be sacked.
Yes, and you also keep claiming that they didn't conspire to do anything and that it was all random that they happened to manage to hound him out of office.
Andy are you saying the officers on duty in the incident the officer behind the email and the three federation reps should all be sacked?
Crankboy
2 lives saved (one a relative)
23 years in the real world of criminal law
Closest college a former professional standards inspector.
Seen true heroics from certain officers.
Deeply worrying dishonesty and incompetence from others.
There, wasn't so hard, was it?
So what is you job Flashy and who do you work for ?
Did I say dishonest coppers should be sacked? Er yes. Flash heart stick to paperclips or whatever pathetic job you do eh? There, not so difficult!
Did I say dishonest coppers should be sacked? Er yes.
So you agree with all of us then - what was your point, caller?
aracer - MemberSo he didn't actually at any point claim he hadn't not shown them respect as you claimed earlier? That wasn't a completely truthful statement was it - what's that you're muttering under your breath, ernie?
You're obviously on some sort of pedantic point scoring exercise aracer so I suspect this is a waste of time, specially as you perfectly capable of googling yourself, but here you are anyway :
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19671093 ]Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell apologises to police[/url]
[b][i]"I accept I did not treat the police with the respect they deserve," he said. [/i][/b]
It's interesting that on a thread titled "police fudging the truth" that people want to fudge the truth and pretend that things which clearly happened didn't happen.
Anyway aracer, I'm sure you will milk this with some smartarse pedantic point claiming that "did not treat the police with the respect" isn't the same as "did not show police respect".
You know you want to 🙄
Andymc wouldn't get too het up here about all this, just tribal bickering from Tory fanboys defending their own, kinda like the police ! 😉
Very good mate who's a copper and wouldnt want to deal with the shit he does day in day out, like most on here I'm happy in my comfy middle classtrackworld office (well lab) job
Tbh an arrogant **** like Mitchell spoke down to me I'd want to stick it too him as well, the trouble is the whole thing then got caught up in the Westminster bitchfest bullshit machine
The laughable conspiracy ramblings above are just that . once again storm in a t cup
Andy, are you a policeman, yes or no?
Well he comes's across as not very bright, avoids answering a straight question (evasive about the truth), and seems to think the Police are above question, so I'd say a definite yes.
EDIT forgot to add abusive, so I'd say probably MET
Kimbers explain the recorded events without it being a conspiracy ?
Footflaps - abusive keyboard warrior/coward yes? I have said dishonest police should be sacked. What am i avoiding other than your crushing cowardice? Your job please?
thegreatape - MemberPost a 😀 if you love the police and think they're all awesome.
Well clearly not all coppers are awesome. But I've got to say that I've got quite a lot of respect for the ones who post on STW. I'm sure it takes a bit of guts to be upfront and admit on a forum that you're a copper, when there's a high risk that you'll get some stick for it, as amply illustrated by footflaps puerile comment.
😀
The recorded events or robdixons assertions on page 2 ? As in what I was referring to
andymc06. I haven't contributed to this so far. I will say that if you show as little respect to members of the public as you have shown here then you should be ashamed of your attitude. You are a public servant not superior to the public because of the job you do.
You also need to learn that people are worth no more or less if they have put themselves at risk to protect others. Not everyone has the opportunity and that is not the type of selflessness or bravery that everyone has. There are many other valuable kinds.
No matter how old you are - your behaviour on this thread shows you need to gain some maturity and wisdom.
Double post.
footflaps peurile comment was pretty funny, given that andymc06 is defending the indefensible, given that the IPCC is world reknowned for letting the cops off, given the fact that they have come out against the cops in this instance, it means that the evidence must be compelling. (well it is, Mitchells recording vs West Mercias statement) No glory for the MET or West Mercia this day.
TBH I have met a few cops and been on the receiving end (both for and against) and the results have been mixed, 50/50. Which is bad, it should be more like 99.99/0.001. Anecdotes don't make science, but I do find myself avoiding the cops at all costs, I thinkt he innocent have very much to fear. I would be hard pressed to report a crime these days unless someone was in physical danger, as I cannot stand the idea/risk of being anywhere near a copper, as even as an innocent they will always seek a way to find criminality in your actions. Just avoid them.
Im afraid some bad examples of large scale police corruptions like Hillsborough and personal experience of corruption several years ago and knowing a few now who joined because they were either desperate for authority or simply wanted easy access to vulnerable women has left me very cynical about the plod.
I would be more likely to trust the average person in the street than a copper, which is a bit sad.
Very kind of you ernie, although I've found that most people have a balanced/realistic view. Some have a negative view, but when that's based on bad experience it's fair enough (eg. jonah tonto ^ ). Some just stereotype all police officers (oh the irony), but they can be safely ignored!
footflaps peurile comment was pretty funny, given that andymc06 is defending the indefensible.
Well it wasn't really aimed at andymc06 was it, it was a much more aimed at all coppers. And I've got to admit the comic value of it went straight over my head.
I've got to say that the majority of police officers I've met have been pretty good. Met a couple who were not particularly helpful but that's about it.
ernie, as you appear to have completely missed my point, let me quote your post back at you:
Did he resign for calling the police "plebs" or did he resign for swearing at police officers and not showing them "respect", something which he admitted doing after initially lying and claiming that he hadn't ?
So you're claiming that at some point he lied and claimed he hadn't "not shown the police officers respect". My first response to that was quoting something very similar to what you've just posted where he admits from the off that he didn't show the officers respect, so that's clearly something he's never lied about.
I can understand the confusion comes from the double negative - I couldn't think of a better way of writing it, and hence why I've used a quote above to separate the two negatives. My apologies for not making it as clear as I should have.
Not a clever point scoring exercise or trying to fudge the truth, simply that I couldn't remember exactly what had happened (I don't think I paid that much attention at the time), hence didn't know the truth about what he'd claimed about the swearing. The articles I found simply proved that he did always admit not showing sufficient respect, contrary to your claim.
the comic value of it went straight over my head
Fair enough, I guess it depends what coloured lenses you view this place through. Mine kind of gives it a "have i got News For You" type tint, most comments make me laugh, unless it is truly scummy (which does happen here..)
well david davies has just come on Newsnight and slagged off the police said they had a deep institutional problem (with lying)
of course hes good friends with mitchell- he supported davies leadership attempt, possibly why cameron was so quick to dump him...?
most comments make me laugh
I hope mine don't 😐
well david davies has just come on Newsnight and slagged off the police said they had a deep institutional problem (with lying)
I wonder whether he had quite such a problem with the police lying when it was about striking miners, or dead Liverpool fans.
you especially ernie
Such cruelty.
Thank-you Ernie for a balanced view. Jamj1974 what contributory job do you do? I look forward to your contribution about respect and society.......
a couple of posts have said words to the effect of this sorry affair being a stitch up but not a conspiracy.
The whistle blower who stepped forward in the last week, and also a policeman is reported to have given evidence of exactly that - a plan to make an example of Mitchell that was actually discussed some time before it happened and led by the officers actually involved in the subsequent staged event.
If this isn't a conspiracy I'm not sure what is.
Oh and if it needs to be said, the vast majority of my encounters with the police have been very positive (the only negative incident I can think of was dealt with very well when I complained about it), so I'm far from a police hater here. I just don't think that all the positive things they do gives them an excuse to be corrupt when they are - if anything they must be held to a much higher standard than the general public. It really is a sad day when it turns out that a Tory politician is actually more truthful than the police.
Oh, and if anything ISTM the worst thing about this whole affair isn't the lying of the officers directly involved, nor even the lying of those higher ranking officers who interviewed Mr Mitchell, but the way in which the forces closed rank and didn't accept that they had a case to answer even when presented with clear cut evidence of their deceit. You do start to get the impression that as good and honorable as the individual officers might be, there is a systemic issue of covering up wrongdoing inside the force.
well david davies has just come on Newsnight and slagged off the police said they had a deep institutional problem (with lying)of course hes good friends with mitchell- he supported davies leadership attempt, possibly why cameron was so quick to dump him...?
Interesting implied ad-hom there, given as it turns out Mitchell has (mostly) been telling the truth. Are you claiming that there isn't a deep institutional problem with lying - as grum points out this is far from the first occasion where there's been an institutional cover up? Clearly it's unfortunate that on previous occasions the police's lying has suited the politicians.
im in no way denying that theres have been many cases of police lying and corruption, only a fool would deny it!
my own dealings have found some police to be very poor
I just thought it was very strong language to use, basically calling into question the integrity of every police officer in the country
Im not sure whether he wants to provoke a wider response from the police (federation)?
andymc06 - Member
The idea that police planned to set up an mp with malicious evidence due to their own agenda is ridiculous.
Well I hope you are right but that's not how it looks here does it?
What disgusts me is the complete lack of appreciation of what it is police do for a livin.
I don't see how that follows. Yes, there are a few barbs on here (but hey, it's STW) but I think most people are generally supportive of the police which is why the reaction to events like this is generally pretty forceful. The whole episode is pretty much who behaved worst in a catalogue of unsavoury events. And the winner is.....not hard to see.
Not sure how being unpleasant to people is likely to win them or others over though Andy?
robdixon, not aware of that whistle blower- links?
I just thought it was very strong language to use, basically calling into question the integrity of every police officer in the country
Was it? I'll have to iPlayer as I've not seen it, but ISTM quite possible to suggest institutional problems without tarring every individual officer. Maybe he didn't do as good a job of combining the criticism of the institution with praise of the individual as most here are trying to do.
Im not sure whether he wants to provoke a wider response from the police (federation)?
More than likely - I'm sure politicians have an agenda just as much as some police officers do.
ISTM ?
andymc06...Jamj1974 what contributory job do you do? I look forward to your contribution about respect and society.......
Thanks for reinforcing my point. I'm not a policeman - so obviously it's not a worthwhile job in your eyes. It's not so much about what you do but [i][b]how[/b][/i] you do it perhaps...?
Currently I am a management consultant - own my own business. Funnily enough I have helped save lives - of strangers and of a colleague and of a friend. Four people in total. The two strangers were in separate incidents being brutally attacked when I intervened. My colleague was a medical emergency and I stopped my friend from committing suicide. Oh and as a small child I revived my dad who was on the point of entering diabetic coma. Is that enough...?
Management consultant? I look forward to casting sweeping generalisations based on limited facts about your career. Oh that's right. I wouldn't be so conceited as to do that knowing so little about your job......
I really don't understand why you are asking about lives saved.I am a retired nurse worked in acute medicine for 30 years,I probably saved hundreds of lives,I don't know,how do you define saved?I don't understand why you think saving lives means that you are an important person,whose lying and bullying and conspiring must be accepted,I saved lives because I was there and it was my job,I'm no hero.
Management consultant? I look forward to casting sweeping generalisations based on limited facts about your career. Oh that's right. I wouldn't be so conceited as to do that knowing so little about your job......
I knew it was coming, and finally it's time. Here's a nice smiley one for you:
[img] 
[/img]
I'm not making sweeping generalisations based on your job. I'm commenting on your confrontational and frankly disrespectful posting here on this thread. I suggested that if you used the same approach for your job as you've used here - it wouldn't be positive. I hope you are more positive in your interactions offline.
I've never been a police officer - but a couple of my childhood friends are officers and we are still friends now so they talk a bit about it. I would say I have a small idea - but nothing extensive or deep.
especially for grum
I wonder whether he had quite such a problem with the police lying when it was about striking miners, or dead Liverpool fans.
watch this and see what you think
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23128129
Hmmm. Thanks for not reading any of the thread. How many times do i have to repeat that dishonest
Cops and mp's should be sacked. I DO NOT agree with any of them and at what point did I say lying and bullying should be tollerated??? What I take exception to is keyboard warriors (management consultants and the like) casting judgement about things they have never experienced!)
tge - it seems to me you need to try using google.
thejesmonddingo - Member
I was there and it was my job,I'm no hero.
Well I'm grateful you did it anyway!
What I take exception to is keyboard warriors (management consultants amd the like) casting judgement about things they have never experienced!)
Would you like another pic, andy - I can do a less smiley one if you prefer?
andymc06 a word of advice,when you're in the bottom of a hole,stop digging.
No. I'm fine. Thanks anyway. 🙂
(And I'm not in a hole nurse).
aracer - ISWYDT
Thanks
What I take exception to is keyboard warriors (management consultants amd the like) casting judgement about things they have never experienced!)
Notice I've not commented on policing - just your approach here. That's because I know little about policing (as a management consultant - I wouldn't.) but I do know how you've presented yourself today. In fact I
would probably agree with your point regarding corruption but I take issue with how you've gone about reducing the value of what others have said.
watch this and see what you think
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23128129
Mr Davies appears to have a real issue with dishonesty in the police - he should get a life.
Interestingly in that clip he does start off by pointing out that most police officers are honest and doing a good job (iplayer doesn't yet have newsnight from tonight 👿 )
Thank-you for your comments. I'll them take them on board.......
andymc06. To be fair to you you've probably had a crap day with all this going on. People have a tendency to tar all police officers with the same brush. So I imagine you might be feeling a little persecuted just for your choice of career - before you even came on this thread.
I'm not bashing the police. I can honestly say that despite not having experience of your job - I am grateful that you do it. Just as I am grateful to those in the fire service and NHS who put themselves on the line.
So for what it's worth you have my support in what you do.
Take it easy dude.
J
P.S. Management consultancy can be tougher than you think! 😉
would probably agree with your point regarding corruption
I didn't think he'd made a point regarding corruption. As I understood it he claimed that it was nonsense to suggest that the coppers had deliberately conspired to set up Mitchell. TBH I tend to agree with that.
I think it's much more likely that Mitchell set himself up by losing his rag and swearing at the coppers, for what was after all a fairly reasonable request that he should the pedestrian gate. They didn't arrest him for a public order offence.
The question is did certain coppers [i]after[/i] the event collude and conspire to deliberately misinform and lie about events when they realised that as a result of Mitchell losing his rag and swearing they had a senior government politician by the bollocks, at a time when the Police Fed. was in dispute with the government? There appears to be some evidence to suggest that this might have indeed happened.
The question is did certain coppers after the event collude and conspire to deliberately misinform and lie about events when they realised that as a result of Mitchell losing his rag and swearing they had a senior government politician by the bollocks, at a time when the Police Fed. was in dispute with the government? There appears to be some evidence to suggest that this might have indeed happened.
Is that not a conspiracy? He might have given them the initial ammo (I don't believe anybody is claiming he wasn't in the wrong), but I don't see a huge difference between that and them conspiring to set him up before he did anything.
You do make a good point though - having checked back through this thread, andy's complaints do seem to have originally been aimed at posts suggesting a more sinister conspiracy. He might have helped himself by making posts explaining his position better rather than single word ones before retreating to being defensive.
Andrew Mitchell is a waste of space.
...though in his defence he's not Michael Gove (or Eric Pickles, who would be first up against the wall for me).
robdixon, not aware of that whistle blower- links?
Google "plebgate whistleblower"
I didn't think he'd made a point regarding corruption. As I understood it he claimed that it was nonsense to suggest that the coppers had deliberately conspired to set up Mitchell. TBH I tend to agree with that.I think it's much more likely that Mitchell set himself up by losing his rag and swearing at the coppers, for what was after all a fairly reasonable request that he should the pedestrian gate.
Well, I don't believe that the officers involved were making a reasonable request. I believe they did it to wind him up. Day in, day out, Mitchell had been allowed to cycle through the main gate, then one day they decide to change the rules on him.
Whether they were winding him up as part of a planned attempt to get him to say enough to stitch him up, or just because, like the previous commenter, they thought Mitchell was a waste of space and as such it'd be a fun thing to do, I don't know.
There do now number of reports suggesting that the former may be true - but we should treat those with the same level of skepticism as should have been applied to the differing reports of the original incident.
The sad thing about this affair is amount of damage the officers involved have done to the police. The reason that it was so easy to stitch Mitchell up was because people in this country generally have, or rather, had, a high opinion of the police, trusting them to act with integrity, and trusting the institution to deal effectivity with rogue officers, making a conspiracy of the type apparently seen here more or less unthinkable.
Interesting how the police are 'automaton enforcers of a fascist state' when clearing travellers from Dale Farm, for example, but 'just ordinary working folk' when allegedly abused by a public school educated Tory.
A bit like the red-faced old fart who chuckles and applauds when the police wade in at Dale Farm, yet tell the police to 'eff off and arrest some real criminals' when they pull him over driving home from the golf club pissed.
My points are two-fold.
There is a lot of wilful hypocrisy on the part of people with political agendas when it comes to treating organisations like the police as faceless entities. It takes a wilful care on the part of reasonable people not to be sucked into these 'them and us' childish politics.
The second point is that these are not faceless entities. They consist of individuals with the same mix of prejudice, hang-ups, chips on shoulders and individual agendas as the population they serve. Individual cases need to be assessed on their merits. You cannot simply say 'well if they don't like Mitchell, then they must be in the right' just the same as you can't say 'all coppers are ****s, so they must be lying'.
^^ wise words dannyh.
Dannyh + 1
You can pretty much predict the line that certain people will take about a subject on here, so coloured is their political hue..
Stay reasonable out there 😀
The very worst thing about this is I have just found myself agreeing with Theresa(cat flap) May, oh well stopped clocks and all that.
especially for grumwatch this and see what you think
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23128129
But that's from the last few months - where was he when the innocent victims at Hillsborough were being fitted up and striking miners being assaulted (then fitted up too) I wonder? If he was part of the Tory government in the 80s he was probably cheering the police on/helping them cover things up.
Certainly Thatcher wasn't up for criticising the police:
“What do we mean by ‘welcoming the broad thrust of the report’? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome?” (See sections 2.6.122 through to 2.6.135 of the Report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel.)
And a Tory MP at the time colluded with the police and The Sun to smear dead Liverpool fans:
The sources of the notorious and discredited front page splash were the Sheffield-based news agency “Whites” and a local Tory MP Sir Irvine Patnick- The Police Federation met on 19 April 1989, the day the Sun article was published
- The Federation representative apparently confirmed then that “putting our side of the story over to the press and media” had been his priority
- Chief Constable Peter Wright had said “the truth could not come from him” but that he had given the Police Federation a“free hand” in briefing the press
- Peter Wright said “drunken ticketless individuals” should be blamed
Surprisingly David Davis doesn't mention the role of a Tory MP in the disgraceful smear he appears to be so outraged about.
Perhaps due to all the criticism from police chiefs over cuts, and then Plebgate, the Tories have decided to break with long-standing tradition and not automatically side with the police over any issue.
There are times in a police officers service when he will be asked to lie by his peers, now some of these lies may be of a minor nature, however some are life changing for both the polce officer and the people involved.
Ive been in these situations on many occasions, and I hope always made the right decisions
Unfortunately police officers are all human beings, some weigh up the pros and cons of their decisions, some just go with the flow, and really don't think things through.
Ive seen some unbelievable errors of judgement over the last 25 years, but what I can say is that 99% of the officers I have worked with have been honest men and women who do the job to help out the public.The others do get away with it for a while, but almost always get caught out.
Im sure no-one believes that a police officer tells the truth 100% of the time, im sure no-one on this planet tells the truth all the time
If looked at dispassionately, all that originally happened was that someone got arsey with some coppers who he felt were being ****ers (but who decided he hadn't committed any offence worthy of arrest). The real crime, and far, far more serious than someone getting arsey with some coppers, is that several members of Her Majesty's Police Force then colluded to force a democratically elected Member of Her Majesty's Parliament into a position which was untenable, which led to his resignation. Serving police officers lied to achieve a political end. Other, more senior police officers then lied in an attempt to cover up the original lies, and compounded matters by seeking to further denigrate said MP.
As much as I despise pompous arrogant ****s like Mitchell, the only question that should be asked is why none of those lying scumbags (who have abused and soiled the reputation of the police and created widespread distrust of a public office which operates by Public Consent) have yet been sacked.
The actions of Andrew Mitchell are largely irrelevant. The actions of a number of Public Servants have undermined Democracy. Whatever your political leanings, this must be seen as a very worring issue and great cause for concern, and it's our duty as a society to ensure such a thing must not and cannot happen again.
As for the accusations of 'cowardice'; the only cowardice here is that shown by the police officers who betrayed the trust placed in them by the society which they are meant to serve.
Was it the coppers who changed the rules? Preventing big ego riding through the big gate was a safety issue, right? Lest some naughty person with a van full of fertiliser drive through the other way as it's opened for him. In which case Mitchel would be the first victim, flattened by the vehicle. The police would then be second. It's in their interest too. Let them change the rules if they want to, risks alter, repetition is a weakness.
What happened to the video, you remember, only a heavily edited portion was released.
I think the delay works in Mitchel's favour, and no-one's asking the right questions. It stinks.
Well, they seemed to have opened the gate on every other occasion!
Perhaps the more likely scenario is that they couldn't be arsed to open the big gate, and when asked to open it came out with the tried and tested public service answer for everything from not stepping in a puddle to rescue a drowning child through to banning conkers:
"its Elf and safety, innit!"
As much as I despise pompous arrogant **** like Mitchell, the only question that should be asked is why none of those lying scumbags (who have abused and soiled the reputation of the police and created widespread distrust of a public office which operates by Public Consent) have yet been sacked.
I'm happy with police who blatantly lie being sacked. And there is quite clearly a problem with the police pulling together on this and probably lots of frankly far more important issues.
The only reason this particular issue is getting such press though is because it happened to a Tory MP who has some clout when it comes to whinging about it. If it had happened to an ordinary member of the public we'd never have heard about it and the Tories who now claim to be outraged about police corruption would have never said a word.
ninfan - you're like a crap parody account for Zulu-Eleven. If you're going to troll at least try a bit harder.
If it had happened to an ordinary member of the public we'd never have heard about it
Well, there [b]was[/b] the Macpherson report!
Let them change the rules if they want to, risks alter, repetition is a weakness.
Sure, but given what we know now, I don't think their opening line was, "I'm sorry sir, but the rules have changed." Whether part of a pre-planned conspiracy or not, I believe that they were deliberately antagonising him.
One of the comments above suggests that the police effectively helped the Tories / Thatcher do a cover up on Hillsborough. This comes up quite a bit but the information released into the public domain last year shows that quite before anyone updated the relevant secretary of state at the time, Douglas Hurd, or the Prime Minister, records were falsified - by over 150 police men and women.
After the records were falsified (this it turns out even included video evidence) the then government were given further false information.
It's quite interesting that for the 20 or so years since it happened the suspicion has been that Government ministers tried to mislead the public when what increasingly seems to have happened is that the police conspired to cover up what had happened and their role in causing it.
The parallels with the Plebgate are obvious - at the time of Hillsborough Thatcher's press chief is reported to have described the behaviour of the police , in notes obtained by the panel, that the police's "defensive - and at times close to deceitful - behaviour" sounded "depressingly familiar".
For me the issue in hand isn't about individual officers who by and large are trying to do the right thing, often in very challenging situations, but more to do with leadership, a "closed shop" culture, a lack of transparency and the need for forces to do a lot more to hold themselves to account against the standards the public require of them.
One of the comments above suggests that the police effectively helped the Tories / Thatcher do a cover up on Hillsborough.
No, it was the other way round.
at the time of Hillsborough Thatcher's press chief is reported to have described the behaviour of the police , in notes obtained by the panel, that the police's "defensive - and at times close to deceitful - behaviour" sounded "depressingly familiar".
But seeing as the police were useful attack dogs in the fight against the miners they didn't want to do anything about it did they.
but Grum - Thatcher's response reflected what she was directly told by amongst others, the Chief Superintendents of the day. Should she not trusted such senior officers, and if not, which individuals who had relevant accountability should she have listened to and given weight to?
The only reason this particular issue is getting such press though is because it happened to a Tory MP who has some clout when it comes to whinging about it. If it had happened to an ordinary member of the public we'd never have heard about it and the Tories who now claim to be outraged about police corruption would have never said a word.
I'm sure you're right, and it's good that they've been found out because of that on this occasion. The worrying thing is that it does make you wonder how often the minority of bad ones do get away with it. That and the closing of ranks around those officers who've clearly done wrong which does appear to be an institutional cover up reaction.
pdw - MemberWell, I don't believe that the officers involved were making a reasonable request.
What are you, some sort of expert on anti-terrorist security ?
I'm not, and I don't know what the logistics are involving the opening of the vehicular gates in Downing Street. But I am a cyclist and know how easy it is to push a bicycle on a pavement and through pedestrian access.
And I also know that the gates are there to stop a terrorist attack. An attack in which for example, a car loaded with explosives detonates taking the front of Number 10, the Prime Minister, the cabinet, one or two foreign dignitaries, and perhaps half a dozen of coppers.
I assume that every time the gates are opened they are no longer providing the same level of security as when they are shut. I have no idea what the security threat level was was on that particular day, nor do I know if the armed officers had been told to keep gate opening to the absolute minimum.
Clearly the gates have to be occasionally opened to allow cars and commercial vehicles through, presumably the presence of a vehicle passing through reduces the access for possible hostile action in a way that a cyclist on a bicycle doesn't.
But perhaps the police were in fact unreasonable and should have opened the vehicular gates specially for Mitchell to cycle through majestically, instead of the humiliation of having to push his mother's shopping bike through the pedestrian gate.
Perhaps the security gates and the armed police are all just completely unnecessary nonsense which should be scrapped.
But if Mitchell had issues then I'm sure there is a procedure to make representations, he did after all say to them "you haven't heard the last of this" so he presumably believes that there is.
What he shouldn't have done was loose his rag, swear at them, and by his own admission, show a lack of respect. All of which is totally unacceptable behaviour from a government Chief Whip. I don't swear at coppers and I don't see why senior Tory politicians can't control themselves similarly when they feel aggravated.