It might not have changed behaviour to the point where no one owns a car and everyone uses public transport but it doesn’t mean that it hasn’t affected behaviour.
Okay, so how has it affected behaviour then?
You may not want to look at this as it won't be lining up with what you are imagining
https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/summary
Even with the pandemic when you pretty much could drive anywhere the car use levels only dropped to 1994 level
not affordable on a nurse salary but lets ignore that
Isn't that the central point @guest1 is making though. A nurse can't afford it, so then has to move further and further away from work. At which point you have to start to make decisions about travel.
the reduced mortgage costs would be less than the full cost of the commute ie buying the car, insuring it, paying all the costs
Probably but in most commuters town/belts, the bus services are shocking, or just non existent, or might not go where you want when you want, or add 40 mins onto your commute, or be unsafe when you do shifts...Not everyone can cycle,
average miles driven has not dropped
Average miles driven per car has dropped over 20% since 2003. I can't see if that is offset by increased numbers of cars though.
EDIT no, average miles per person has fallen too:
More details here:
People on short-term or zero-hour contracts, or those who have to move home or workplace unexpectedly, cannot always predict or plan their travel patterns. This ongoing uncertainty can make owning a car a necessity for many on lower incomes, even when it is hard to afford one. Many people without a car can have fewer opportunities as a result.
Isn't that just because of covid?
Nickc - to move out of the city we would have had to buy and run two cars. ( shift work)
the cost of those two cars would be much greater than the reduced mortgage costs of living outside the town
Ooh, more fun here:
"82% of trips under one mile were walks in 2020"
the cost of those two cars would be much greater than the reduced mortgage costs of living outside the town
@TJ how many flats are there in the city centre?
Also after a quick scan on espc actually there are cheaper properties in the city than in the burbs or anything that would be less than 2 hours drive away
to move out of the city we would have had to buy and run two cars.
And people have to make that decision all the time, especially if you've got children. A couple of my friends still live in the city centre, but they're both lecturers at Manc Uni, don't have children, and have 1% income bracket salaries, and are carless people like you and them have choices because of your circumstance that others simply don't have.
@TJ how many flats are there in the city centre?
Lots - Edinburgh is mainly flats and residential right thru the city
Also after a quick scan on espc actually there are cheaper properties in the city
I don't doubt, but people have a basket of needs and wants when they're buying a house don't they? It's all a balancing act between school, locality, neighbours, noise, green space, travel outsdie the city, pollution...and on and on.
nickc - you are missing my point
it would have been cheaper for us to live carless in the city than live outside the city and commute. the mortgge savings would be less than the cost of the cars
No, I haven't, for YOU it would be cheaper, for other people, it may not have been. People do have different requirements and priorities.
actually there are cheaper properties in the city than in the burbs
That's because city properties are smaller, don't have a garden and the burbs are generally nicer.
Right - now we are drilling down a bit
so actually the decision to commute is not about cheapness but about aspiration to have a garden
to me by the way the burbs make my heart sink. I have 25 restaurants withing 5 mins walking distance, I have shops within a hundred m, I have access to busses and trains
What I have missed out on? A garden and a garage
No, I haven’t, for YOU it would be cheaper, for other people, it may not have been.
Errmmmm - no for any couple who works in Edinburgh
Have a look on espc for property. there is nothing available withing comutting distance where the decreased mortgage would be less than the cost of running two cars.
The real truth of the matter is if I were starting out now I would not have been able to afford to take a job in Edinburgh. Both living in the city and commutting would be totally unaffordable.
That’s because city properties are smaller,
I bet my flat has more m2 than most burbs houses of a similar value
Whereas I would rather have a garden and a garage as I have no interest in going to restaurants. Everyone has different priorities.
I live in rural location because I love it and can't think I will ever live in a town again.
That means I must have a car so I have a car. I have a very efficient car but use it for around 10,000 miles per year.
Yes I could get the one bus per day to the nearest town and then walk or get another bus to work but getting to work at 12:30 each day may not be good for my career...
Over the last 20 years my car use has not changed AT ALL.
so actually the decision to commute is not about cheapness but about aspiration to have a garden
And this comes back to what I said some time ago on one of these threads - how much niceness do we deserve? How much SHOULD we have?
Also TJ - living in a city centre flat with kids is a lot more difficult. Small kids really appreciate gardens to run about in, and older kids need to play outside. That's quite hard to arrange in a city centre.
Lots – Edinburgh is mainly flats and residential right thru the city
Enough for everyone to move out of the suburbs and into one?
Errmmmm – no for any couple who works in Edinburgh
As long as their income is high enough, and the job stable If you're on zero hours, or piece work, or inconsistent locations or any number of external factors, then a car less city centre life may not be.
I bet my flat has more m2 than most burbs houses of a similar value
But does it have the usable sort of space that a family might need? 3 beds? a couple of toilets? It's not all about m2.
You're lucky that your circumstances are such that you can make thee sorts of decisions, others aren't in that position.
And lots of folk don't live in cities so the whole discussion is moot.
I spent about 10 years in jobs which were 30 miles away, and required travel. I changed this about 15 or so years ago to one within 10 miles that I could cycle too. All went well for a while until I got my spine broken on the commute. Back to the car until covid hit. Since being back in the office, I've opted to cycle again, but along the canal. The car is used mainly at weekends for bike stuff and going to Wales. Must say I've been seeing what mpg I can get out of my 20 year old large petrol saloon. Managed 45 mpg over 75 miles to Wales. I recon I won't be leaving the bike roof rack on the car over the summer this time though with fuel prices.
People on short-term or zero-hour contracts, or those who have to move home or workplace unexpectedly, cannot always predict or plan their travel patterns. This ongoing uncertainty can make owning a car a necessity for many on lower incomes, even when it is hard to afford one. Many people without a car can have fewer opportunities as a result.
When we came back to the UK in 2001 we made a decision on where to buy a house based on the reality that no job could be guaranteed, therefore we'd live somewhere 'handy' for lots places (plus airports as the jobs I did normally required travel).
In the world that many of us live, reality is that the 'flexibility' of using a car is FORCED on us.
So we now have the moving goalposts
its not cheaper to work in a city and live in the burbs / dormitory towns. So now its about what type of place you want to live in
thats fine. chose to commute because you want a garden. Your choice. But you are paying ( once you factor in the total cost of the cars needed) more not less overall and using up a lot of time doing so.
You’re lucky
Nothing to do with luck. its a result of conscious decisions
therefore we’d live somewhere ‘handy’ for lots places
which is what we did by living in the city. Both Julie and I have had multiple jobs in the 30 years we lived here. all within muscle power of home.
Ok chaps - thread drift and I have made my point
And lots of folk don’t live in cities so the whole discussion is moot.
Yeah a lot do, and the tangent is about the problems of city living so not moot at all.
its a result of conscious decisions
But clearly there aren't enough local jobs for everyone to do them locally! This is the fundamental problem. Not everyone can do what you did, there's not physically enough space. It's what we used to do, then we ran out of space, so we couldn't do it any more.
It looks like you're blaming the world's problems on people making morally feeble decisions, but there's so much more to it than that.
The real truth of the matter is if I were starting out now I would not have been able to afford to take a job in Edinburgh. Both living in the city and commutting would be totally unaffordable.
And yet a lot of people do exactly that. Why? Because they have no choice.
When we came back to the UK in 2001 we made a decision on where to buy a house based on the reality that no job could be guaranteed, therefore we’d live somewhere ‘handy’ for lots places (plus airports as the jobs I did normally required travel).
^^^This is the heart of it. The UK jobs market is VERY fluid. Jobs for life rarely exist even if you want one. Situating somewhere which gives you flexibility/adaptability is crucial.
We wanted to be within 10 miles, but property prices were too high/sizes too small for what we wanted 8 years ago. 25 miles out, we could get something cheap enough/sizable enough and have disposable income, but MUCH higher fuel/car costs and no public transport. The compromise we made was to be 17 miles out. The house was MUCH more expensive, but I can cycle and our mileage drops by 2/3rds. The mortgage is MUCH more, but at least the payments are going into something rather than just being burned on fuel and placed into depreciating assets like a car. The first 5 years were very tough financially.
I hate living in the burbs, at least the modern ones, but I did it because I was sick of paying rent, wasn't saving up any money, and the developer was giving away deposits. Then shit happened and I couldn't move.
BUT the real issue isn't with me living here, it's with there being no decent public transport. I wouldn't mind anywhere near as much if there were. Fortunately, that's being addressed by the (Labour led) WG.
So we now have the moving goalposts
I don't think anyone is. You see your decisions as consciously made by you, which they are, and those choices are available to everyone else, which they aren't. It's really as simple as that. If you cant see past that your own circumstances of being part of your decision making process, that has given you options that may not be available to others then there's no point in carrying on the discussion.
You're well educated, in a profession that has largely immovable city centre locations, that have strong workplace unions and with well defined career plans and work place benefits. (like sick pay and paid leave). That gives you options to make decisions - and it's own limitations admittedly.
TJ - you don't seem to grasp that other people are in a very different situation to you. It must be nice to be retired and own a rental property...
Where I live, I'd estimate that it would be 40% more expensive to live in the city than rural - yes, that is different to your situation, but that is the reality of my situation. Why can't you grasp that everyone's situation is different?
If I was to live in the city, I might be able to afford tiny flat in a tower block, and have 'interesting' neighbours... No thanks. Even including all the costs of car ownership, it is still cheaper to live where I am - we don't all buy new or luxury cars.
(By the way, which area of Edinburgh are your £200k flats in, and would you want to bring up children there if you lived in that flat?
You have previously stated that you wouldn't now be able to afford to live in Edinburgh if you were starting out now, and that you would have chosen to live + work somewhere cheaper. That is great, but who would then staff the hospitals in Edinburgh if everyone is supposed to live close to their work? - no nurse could afford to live there!
you are retired, presumably mortgage free and also own a rental property - stop criticising people who are in a VERY different situation to you.
Nothing to do with luck. its a result of conscious decisions
a conscious decision to be born 5 + decades ago....
Even in my life time - my mum a factory worker and my dad a digger driver (employed not owner driver)
were able to buy their first 2 bed NEW BUILD for £29000 - which was a stretch back then especially with the huge interest rates
A new build 3 bed locally when i was buying was 269k
An old one on the outskirts of the city with more space was 200k.
a 2 bed flat in town was 180k.
The cost of moving means it was silly to buy a flat and be stuck there by the costs of solicitors/selling/property tax / negative equity etc.
if my mum and dad were buying today in their roles even with wage increases- they could not have afforded it.
My mortgage on the house was also less than the rent on the 1 bed shithole flat i had in town.(and that was the one of the better availible that wasnt in the multis or 1000 a month,
Our decision to move from the city to a burb after we had kids was partly influenced by schools.
Take a look at the top 20. Apart from Jordanhill (where we couldn't afford a house in the catchment) and the Gaelic school which wasn't around, all the best schools around Glasgow are in burbs.
Crime? I've been in my street over 30 years and there has never been a house, garage, or shed broken into. I just click past the threads on here about garage security.
Car parking? At the gate every time. When I lived in the west end I struggled to get parked in the same street.
I recognise the advantages of city centre living. I miss a choice of pubs within 5 mins walk but everyone's priorities are different.
Flats have good and bad points. The neighbours having the council noise officer visit us because of an allegedly noisy tumble drier being one. Noisy neighbours. You might be lucky you might not be. IME noisy neighbours are a bigger risk in a flat than a house.
Getting communal work done on the close was always a pain. One flat was rented and the owner didn't want to spend a penny she could avoid. In a house it's down to me.
Oh, and having my parents within walking distance for babysitting was priceless. As was the kids having good regular contact with them.
My commuting costs are less than the difference between payments on the mortgage here and the mortgage i would have to get (probably have to triple it TBH) to live somewhere within cycle or bus commuting distance of work.
Fuel, tyres, time, parking, maintenance, tolls, etc. the ex and i worked it all out, on a spreadsheet...
Oh, i'd still need a car even if i moved.
Actually, i could probably get away with doubling the mortgage, downsizing massively and/or living somewhere less than ideal. Can you imagine living somewhere with trucks driving past and shaking your home? Horrific. How could anyone make a conscious decision to live like that?
Or i could rent, but that's going to be double the mortgage payments, unless i want to share a bedroom with my kids...
FWIW. housing where i live has doubled in price (give or take) since we did the calculation. In the city it's gone up near enough twice that much, a friend at work has just bought a 100 sqm flat in a nice area for the equivalent of half a million quid. Last time it sold it was £140000 (2007).
They have an issue with noisy neighbours already.
This isnt really to do with petrol prices but more to do with locations. We live right on the edge of a city boundary but come under the County Council rather than the City Council.
When it came to applying for primary schools for my son we applied to the local school which was a 5 min walk away (but within the city boundaries) but were given a place at a school 3 miles away because it is within our catchment area (and the County boundaries).
This wasn't our choice but does mean that we have to drive him to school. Their are no options for public transport to get him there and I quite like my son so there is no way he would be cycling along 3 miles of country road without any pavement to get to school.
So its not as simple as saying its a choice. Luckily the school he is at is enabling him the thrive.
All of these problems need to be (and could be) solved by government, not by individuals making choices because every choice we make has to be traded off against other things.
Agree - One way of helping the commuting problem is the right to work at home, whatever happened to that idea that came up in the pandemic where you can work at home unless your employer can provide evidence that it is not viable for your job.
Nothing to do with luck. its a result of conscious decisions
You may have chosen to swim in the right direction, but you were helped by the tide.
I'm similar: I chose to move back into the city so I could live within a cycle commute of my new job, but that was based on:
1. A free higher education so I wasn't starting out with a mountain of debt
2. A reasonably secure public sector job
3. Earning enough and being debt free firstly to afford city centre rent then a modest first house with my partner's joint income
Given the way house prices and job security have gone in the last twenty years, it's highly unlikely that I'd be able to do the same if I were starting out now. I'm very fortunate to have been born when I was.
One way of helping the commuting problem is the right to work at home
Yes but also actually invest in it - provide facilities for people who want to leave their house for example, even if it's just incentivising private companies to do it. Costa could branch out into office spaces with coffee and food and cubicles, your company rents a space for you and claims tax back from the govt or some kind of grant. Expensive, maybe, but cheaper than endless new roads I'd guess.
Can you imagine living somewhere with trucks driving past and shaking your home? Horrific. How could anyone make a conscious decision to live
like that?
JFC
🙄
Some, perhaps many, of us don't need to imagine it.
🙄
its not cheaper to work in a city and live in the burbs / dormitory towns.
It is. It really is.
Back on the subject of fuel prices; At the same BP garage Diesel at 166.9 Monday night, today 172.9.
Reading this thread, I am very lucky to be able to live in a cheaper area and be within cycling distance of work.