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Unless you are doing a vocational degree most uni courses are not about the content. They are about learning to learn, to research, to argue a point, to fail, to jump through hoops without touching the sides. To learn to do group work and be collaborative. Secondary education is pretty much the same only at a lower level.
This is what I got out of university as well, something that could have been taught to me when I was 11. Although of course, it was also about content as I studied and now work within a science based discipline.
It would be impossible for me to have the career I have, and therefore the life I and my family have, without the education I’ve received.
I on the other hand, still managed to go to university - then taught myself an entirely new although indirectly related subject and have managed to receive an offer for a masters in that new subject.
I hated every ****ing minute of secondary.
I had a friend, he had two siblings and all went to different schools which was very unusual. It turns out his parents had deliberately picked schools which they thought would fit the personality of each child. A lot of school time is just messing around, which suited me, the exams weren't that difficult and I would always catch up by cramming for a few weeks before. If I had been in a more disciplinarian school then I would have rebelled. I suspect this is the reason behind a lot of expulsions, as well as personal problems at home.
We have to do lots of personality tests at work and apparently they do work, I don't know if they could be used for kids to help them choose the best secondary school or at least inform their decision. E.g. creative kids tend to do well in friendly inclusive schools.
I got a note this week from a pupil which I wish I could take a picture of and post it. Needless to say I don't recognise the person the writer is talking about. But I wish I were that person.
I do know a little of their situation and because of that try to make sure they're ok. I care not a rat's arse about their academic ability (low by most standards) but I'd like them to escape their current situation.
It would be impossible for me to have the career I have, and therefore the life I and my family have, without the education I’ve received.
So yeah, as far as I’m concerned, school is invaluable.
This.
I went to sh*t school, and got 3 GCSES. i went to Art college at 16 (OND) and technical college at 18 (HND) then ****ed around for a few years before getting Maths/Engiish GCSEs an evening classes and going back to Uni at 31 to do and Engineering degree (got a first)
My kids (daughters aged 10 and 13) want to be a Vet and a Media Lawyer respectively so they need to work hard at School if they've to have any chance of achieving this.
My wife is also a Science Teacher, who has a science degree, a PGCE and an MEd.
If we didn't need the Money from working full time we'd both study more - i'm a great believer in life-long learning and if circumstances were right i'd jump at doing an MSc.
The way i see it - is a Degree is a level of education which gives you the tools (research/report writing/organisation) which can be applied to many career paths.
So yes, we value education in this house.
I value education as well, I'm sure Steve does - what I didn't and still don't value was my secondary school education.
Hated primary secondary technical college and university....
I am a know it all... apparently or it could be down to the fact that i read more than my teachers and lecturers and asked them questions they couldn't answer
I loved uni, that was the first time I felt teachers/lecturers got me and the first time I felt like I belonged somewhere. I dropped out of my A-Levels for various reasons and then a year later managed to convince a university to give me a place on a foundation degree, it was the best choice I've ever made despite A-levels being free. I'm eternally grateful to the course tutor who showed me around the campus, then took my application seriously, then stuck me in some extra academic skills classes and some more advanced maths modules in the engineering department.
My personal experience was of not liking school. Asked if I wanted to leave Xmas of S5 as I was not passing anything. Passed everything to spite some teachers. Failed standard grade maths and when asked why I said because my teacher said I would. I passed with A next year,S5, to show I could.
Still hatebannart teacher who when I was in primary 5 asked about colours. She said there are primary and secondary colours, what are the next one's? My answer" university colours" bitch laughed at me. Still hate her 40 years later.
Yeah that's what I got from my English teacher as well, I was told I was going to get D's - all my coursework pieces were A/A*s and I ended up with a good solid A. Yeah, **** you Miss haha.
Rant over.
I was told I was going to get D’s – all my coursework pieces were A/A*s and I ended up with a good solid A. Yeah, **** you Miss haha.
You do realise thats why she told you that dont you?
I once bet a kid £20 he wouldnt get an A* at a level, best £20 I ever spent.
Yeah, **** you Miss haha.
And you think you had the last laugh? 🙂 It's almost like the teacher, working with a lazy boy (weren't we all?), worked out that stick rather than carrot was the required medicine for you 😉
edit - 2 teachers, identical responses within a second of each other. It's almost like it's a 'method'. Who knew!
so much useless rubbish gets taught at secondary schools that will be no use to vast majority of people
Maybe, but what you find rubbish, others find hugely useful.
I do think there is a debate to be had about what is taught at school, I'd argue that learning about Henry XII is less useful than learning about tax, and finances, and how to keep out of debt. I also think that teaching people to be critical and question things is increasingly important in the modern world.
Anyway, back to the OP.
I get the impression you had a crap time at school, like many others did, and that was no fun for you. I didn't have a great time myself for other reasons so I do understand.
The education system is designed to work for the majority, and it does. There are always going to be people it doesn't work for, and with the millions going to school, even a small percentage is still a big number. The challenge is that there is simply not the time, money or infrastructure to put an individual plan together for every person.
I needed that when I was at school, didn't get it, and it's left me some challenging traits in the workplace as an adult.
School is also a safe place for some. Not always in the extreme "I don't get beaten at school" side, but it's often a place they can interact with others, form ideas and find themselves, something some kids can't do at school.
And (going back to your posts on the Covid thread, is why I and others are so keen to see kids at school.
I was lucky, I enjoyed school but was a bit lazy. I did well without really trying, which made university rather a shock. In this time my elder brother died and my parents got divorced but it didn't affect me very much.
My younger brother did go off the rails a bit, joined a evangelical christian group and went round telling everyone that my elder brother was in hell. He screwed up his A-levels and degree but is better now (45 years later).
My elder brother had been to the same school. He loved it until the 6th form when he suddenly couldn't stand it and refused to go. The school were very good and let him self study and sit the exams. He did OK, then dropped out of university after a year. He joined the RAF which he really loved but sadly ended up dead 2 years later.
In summary, our experience of school was all different.
I totally see where the OP is coming from school was a STRUGGLE for me. Had similar traumatic childhood and left with very little (1 GCSE above a C which was graphic design) and finished a-levels with even less (read zero a-levels above a D). To this day I still don't have a GCSE in math or english. However for kids that "get it" school can teach them a lot and for many sets them up for life getting them into a good college, uni then job. The question is how do schools catch the rest.
I didn't do anything of note in school until I returned to college at 22/23 to do a btec in Multimedia where I met a three AMAZING lectures who basically gave me a shed load of confidence and I ended up at uni with a first in graphic designer and have been a professional designer for a bit over 10 years now.
School can seem like a factory but I think thats mainly because like the NHS its horrifically under resourced so teachers don't have the time to drag every kid through the year and some (like myself) just get left behind, its a sad fact. It isn't that kids are stupid they just see stuff different and require a way of learning school (at least in my day) just couldn't / didn't provide.
So yes, we value education in this house.
The question isn't do you value education its do you value school the two are very different things. One is simply a vehicle for the other. There are multiple ways to get an education.
Strangely one of the most qualified people I know didn't do brilliantly at school and dropped out of our college engineering course to go and install cable TV......
Through his shear enthusiasm for his job and being able to pick stuff up he progressed through that company and another then went in to part time lecturing...
He's now an assistant Professor with god knows how many Degrees, Masters and a PHD's at a Uni teaching networking and security.
I was lucky, I enjoyed school but was a bit lazy. I did well without really trying, which made university rather a shock
Same as me, my issue at school was that I was clever and found everything easy, so I was rarely pushed, and on the few occasions I was, I did sod all until the exams which I invariably got A's for. This was fine until 2nd year at college, and certainly uni, where I was well and truly found out.
The issue is that the lack of need to work hard has stuck with me and I can be a right lazy sod at work.
And you think you had the last laugh? 🙂 It’s almost like the teacher, working with a lazy boy (weren’t we all?), worked out that stick rather than carrot was the required medicine for you 😉
edit – 2 teachers, identical responses within a second of each other. It’s almost like it’s a ‘method’. Who knew!
No, she didn't like me. I was doing well before she gave me the predicted D's. The head of Maths, when I asked to be put in the top set essentially told me to do one against the advice of my very nice middle set Maths teacher. Subsequently I got something ridiculous like 97 percent in my final paper.
Lots of the teachers were complete tools, but I do realise that was partly down to it being a rural comp with a bit of a villagey vibe to it where teachers would take a disliking to you if they didn't like your family.
The foundation degree that led into my undergraduate was brilliant, unlike the above posters experience... it was designed in a way that eased you into how to study at university. So I didn't have the same issue of being in for a shock that the others here who swanned through school had.
No, she didn’t like me
Cant think why, you sound lovely...
lunge
School is also a safe place for some. Not always in the extreme “I don’t get beaten at school” side, but it’s often a place they can interact with others, form ideas and find themselves, something some kids can’t do at school.
And (going back to your posts on the Covid thread, is why I and others are so keen to see kids at school.
See, I'm not saying it's not fine or brilliant for some.
Seperate to the Covid thread (for now) is why you say "keen to see kids"
What about the ones who don't benefit or the ones who actively have MH issues caused by school. (Several already on the thread)
Why "punish" them so the other group can "benefit"?
The education system is designed to work for the majority, and it does. There are always going to be people it doesn’t work for, and with the millions going to school, even a small percentage is still a big number. The challenge is that there is simply not the time, money or infrastructure to put an individual plan together for every person.
As I said earlier - there are 3 big groups.
a) Works for brilliantly
b) Manage Despite
c) Works terribly
If you group a+b then it's probably a majority but if we group b+c its probably very significant.
How we distribute that ? Where is the watershed in b?
and I think handybar also says something important... even if that makes it more complex.
handybar
I had a friend, he had two siblings and all went to different schools which was very unusual. It turns out his parents had deliberately picked schools which they thought would fit the personality of each child.
I know my kid is happy enough seeing friends etc. but purely academically he could do far "better" outside school left to his own resources and a syllabus/exam questions.
If we bring in Covid then what was different in the first 4 days of this week to this afternoon?
Kiddo is home now and in the last 7 in his class after more failed to turn up today (no explanation given yet)
He didn't even fall off on Saturday so no lost opportunity for the teachers to call us in again over bruises and grazes.
I’d argue that learning about Henry XII is less useful than learning about tax, and finances,
you can make the argument if you want, but it’s a really really stupid one.
The question isn’t do you value education its do you value school the two are very different things. One is simply a vehicle for the other. There are multiple ways to get an education.
^^^^
This is the bit seems so hard to get across and i think the more on the "inside" they harder it is to see an alternative.
For bizarre reasons my kid picked up duolingo and is smashing French. He doesn't want help ... he's doing great and communicating with his friend who left his school back in France.
He's always resisted any languages despite his mother being a language teacher by training yet suddenly he made more progress in a few weeks than entire terms in Spanish and Italian and his mother has given up teaching him Polish, he's just not interested.
AA
Cant think why, you sound lovely…
Do you appreciate many of us had very traumatic experiences?
I struggled with school, We were ill matched and It did at times make me ill. Being the son of a teacher did not help. I still have friends from school though, almost 40 years on, and for that i'm grateful. Always amazes me how many people breezed through it and don't seem to understand how negative some of us found it.
AA
Cant think why, you sound lovely…
Do you appreciate many of us had very traumatic experiences?
Lots of people have
For bizarre reasons my kid picked up duolingo and is smashing French. He doesn’t want help
This example you keep using is making me smirk just a little.
You have posted about the fixations others have in children NEEDING adults to construct their learning, then you give this as an example of kids sticking it to the man and doing it alone. Apart from of course he isn't. He's using a platform constructed by adults, using well founded learning pedagogy to structure his learning with rewards and praise and continual appraisal and feedback. The order the content is delivered and pace of learning is not coincidental, but carefully constructed by an adult. And (shreek) duolingo employs actual teachers to put their material together. And another crazy thing - not all teaching in a modern classroom is chalk and talk teacher led either. Materials either generated by the school or bought in used to construct a pupil centred learning experience is a very common occurrence. It's not so very different.
But if you think your child is learning French without adult endeavour you are mistaken. They are just not live in the room throwing bits of chalk at his head (any child pre the 90s will possibly recognise this scenario more than a duolingo style learning resource!).
Big problem from my experience was that most of my teachers (from my school days) had zero life knowledge, never excelled in / were that passionate about their subject, didn’t like conflict and we’re not that inspiring. There were always exceptions to the rule and those people were gold, but they were exceptions.
The problem for many is they never get to experience a a good teacher or great education. If the same is the case for parents / whoever is looking after you, then continues in workplace then life is hard.
Never too late and hopefully tech will change that. You can literally watch videos on YT / other sources from some of the best uni’s in the world for free at any age. Both 12 year olds and 80 year olds benefitting right now.
would be handy if they taught far more useful stuff that most people will at some point need to know, like mortgages, pensions, wiring a plug, changing a fuse, fixing a puncture on a car etc etc
Wired many plugs lately? I think the last one I did was actually still at school. It's been a legal requirement for appliances sold in the UK to have preinstalled mains plugs since the mid-90s and most of them are sealed / moulded units these days.
I take your point though, "life skills" should be more of a thing.
That's not to devalue other subjects, what might seem pointless to me might be invaluable for someone else of vice versa. The argument that
... learning about Henry XII is less useful than learning about tax, and finances, and how to keep out of debt.
... is bogus (and you clearly didn't anyway because you've invented five extra Henries 😊 ) because whilst it might've been pointless to you and it sure as shit bored me to tears also, someone else in class might've gone on to become a leading historian, really really good at pub quizzes, or understand Roman numerals.
But these things absolutely should be taught. Not necessarily how to avoid debt - spoiler, you almost certainly can't - but how to manage good debt and not get yourself into trouble.
How to cook basic meals, boys and girls alike. The cookery I did at high school was part of "general education" where we did six lessons of a Thing then went on to something else, they cycled sex ed in with this. After my six weeks in the kitchen I'd learned that it was more efficient to boil water in a kettle than in a pan in the oven, and how to make Chocolate Rice Krispies. As for the next subject it was willy goes in, baby comes out, by the way we're in the middle of the AIDS crisis so if you're going paddling then wear your wellies.
Expanding from that, how to maintain a home generally. From setting up direct debits to choosing an energy supplier to changing the filter on the vacuum cleaner to assembling flat-pack furniture to putting up a set of shelves. To, hell, raising a child.
Logic and critical thinking, things like confirmation bias. This has to be, well, critical these days surely, with the explosion of social media and targeted propaganda advertising and memes. How do you know who to believe?
Environmental studies maybe? Back at my school this probably would've fallen under Geography along with arable farming in Africa or something, but it's a life science. Why recycling is important, sort of thing.
There's probably many, many more. This discussion probably merits another splinter thread from this one.
But if you think your child is learning French without adult endeavour you are mistaken. They are just not live in the room throwing bits of chalk at his head (any child pre the 90s will possibly recognise this scenario more than a duolingo style learning resource!).
Somewhat coincidentally, this was my French class. The teacher was basically Atticus Finch with chalk, he could knock wasps out of the air with the stuff.
This discussion probably merits another splinter thread from this one.
And I suspect would require a few contributors who went to school in this millenium 😉 Come on grandpa, tell us about the war too!
would be handy if they taught far more useful stuff that most people will at some point need to know, like mortgages, pensions, wiring a plug, changing a fuse, fixing a puncture on a car etc etc
No one ever taught me these I had education and that enabled me to learn about it myself.
Ok i think my brother taught me how to change a wheel on my car but other than that.....
This example you keep using is making me smirk just a little.
You have posted about the fixations others have in children NEEDING adults to construct their learning, then you give this as an example of kids sticking it to the man and doing it alone.
You completely missed the point or picked up the wrong end of the stick at least.
The point is that he doesn't want or need a teacher/adult present when he's learning.
You do realise millions of French kids learn French to a decent level with zero structured learning? (and millions of Germans learn German etc.) the reason for this example is because "what about parents who can't help".
Who made the platform is irrelevant to him, what is relevant is he doesn't have a teacher/adult and he can do it all himself.
He did the same with his SATS, he requested no intervention or help from myself or his mother other than past papers and the marking scheme for them. He was predicted crap grades and got 4 questions partially wrong in the whole lot, 2 of which he could have done if he'd bothered.
He's not Cytech qualified either but he can build and maintain a bike!
So far as I know many frame builders and designers aren't either! They just taught themselves.
My mother was secretary do you really think she helped me get A's in Maths, Chem, Phys, Geography, Geology ? I'll give you English and I ended up with a B in History?
I just got the books and learned it, did some past papers and took the O levels.
Not every kid or person wants teaching ... or a teacher to be there they learn better by themselves.
Secondary school was mixed for me. Academically very good at O level when it was remembering stuff and regurgitating it in exams, but got pushed down the "useful/science" route rather than subjects I enjoyed - I was top of the year in two subjects I loved but was urged not to take them at O level. That meant that when it came to more self motivated study at A level my heart wasn't in it, didn't do the work, didn't get the grades, didn't get the uni I wanted, hence my first big mental health wobble and I dropped out within weeks.
However, my secondary school did do practical life stuff like loans and finances and job interviews (mid 1980s). So I understood how to use my (still good) grades and experience to get a job, which led to a really good career, which led to money that enabled me to make wise choices early on that I am still enjoying benefits of now, 30+ years later. Though the degree I did in my 30s is **** all use.
Sadly, the right school at the right time and place for each kid to maximise their opportunities is very unlikely to be found for every one. More rounded views of education will help, and apprenticeships for nonacademic kids are great.
But there is a danger in slagging off the whole system because it has failed you as an individual. It may well have worked for many others.
Not every kid or person wants teaching … or a teacher to be there they learn better by themselves.
He sounds brill (he really does). If you could just use clone him a few bazillion times and we can do away with the whole damn thing.
Or.....he does not sound that special (he does actually) - there are literally hundreds of thousands of kids in mainstream education mixed ability classes who are (with the consent and encouragement of the teachers) doing the leg work for themselves only loosely supervised/encouraged whilst millions of others need way more handholding. Already happening right across the country, nay world.
Choose whichever one suits your narative best.
Secondary school was awful for me personally, the teachers just did not have control of classes and those of us who wanted to learn suffered as a result. Parents separated just as my GCSEs started, we lost the house and had to move into a caravan. I really withdrew into myself during this time as I desperately tried to conceal this fact from my classmates. They all found out anyway and were quite hurtful with it. Completely failed my GCSEs and developed a personality trait that I can't shake.
Fast forward to college, having retaken my GCSEs I managed to get onto a BTEC in engineering. What a waste of time, tutors never taught us and essentially we were confined to a computer room for two years, we did zero hands on stuff. Although I passed with distinctions, I didn't feel equipped to be an engineer upon leaving and subsequently decided against uni.
I work in a job I like now but come into contact with engineers frequently and I am always left feeling inferior which I hate. I am 28 and would love a career and not just a job but am not sure how to go about it.
Cougar
Logic and critical thinking, things like confirmation bias. This has to be, well, critical these days surely, with the explosion of social media and targeted propaganda advertising and memes. How do you know who to believe?
.....There’s probably many, many more. This discussion probably merits another splinter thread from this one.
Yeah, that is a whole thread by itself!
The Q's though are who, how and where?
because whilst it might’ve been pointless to you and it sure as shit bored me to tears also, someone else in class might’ve gone on to become a leading historian, really really good at pub quizzes, or understand Roman numerals.
Same Q's as above.
Why do these require a physical school other than employing teachers?
(Disclaimer that's the only income in our house ATM)
convert
And (shreek) duolingo employs actual teachers to put their material together.
So perhaps this is the future, no need to go into a physical school for many?
They can learn about future King Henry's or a language or many other fascinating things.
Teachers can be employed in the gig economy like the rest of us?
edit – 2 teachers, identical responses within a second of each other. It’s almost like it’s a ‘method’. Who knew!
Thanks for that, got rather a fine LOL. I've a few teacher friends and I have no idea how they cope with the range of skills they have to within one class. It isn't about how 'clever' people are, it's about how they learn and what they have to learn. I did a small amount of maths tutoring at one point and although I could have done the work instantly, working out how each student approached and thought about it and helping them was really difficult. I can't imagine what is required to do it with a whole class at the same time
respect
My problem is I get bored doing anything after seven years. I was at school for seven years, then uni for seven years, then change career paths every seven years. It means my CV lacks continuity but I think it is just the dark side of having a high learning curve, my mind starts to eat itself when I get bored. I think it means I can sometimes see patterns that other people can't necessarily see - very good at innovation - but that doesn't translate well into being a salary man. I also find it hard to work under business hierarchies, but this comes down to assertiveness as much as anything. Now there's something I wished I learned more about at school!
The grass is always greener but the truth is a lot of highly educated people are deeply unhappy at work too. Lawyers and accountants are worried about being disrupted by the rise of digital; other than Drs, nurses and care home workers I can't think of any careers that will last undisrupted over the next thirty years.
Maybe a love of learning, a steep learning curve, use of continuous education, and most importantly (for me) the courage to deviate from the norm are what will be the difference between success and failure in the future, rather than how well someone did at school. Who knows.
If you could just use clone him a few bazillion times and we can do away with the whole damn thing.
I think that would be a very boring (and noisy for those who know him) world.
The narrative I'm trying to maintain is that different things work for different kids.
It's perhaps not hugely surprising that what works for me works for him...
However whereas I hated every minute of school he's quite happy. He does the absolute minimum work* but then he'll instead just research what he finds interesting.
*He spends almost as long working out how to do the least work as it takes to do the work.
Sadly, the right school at the right time and place for each kid to maximise their opportunities is very unlikely to be found for every one. More rounded views of education will help, and apprenticeships for nonacademic kids are great.
But there is a danger in slagging off the whole system because it has failed you as an individual. It may well have worked for many others.
I'm less trying to slag off the whole system than reacting to "schools are the best for everyone".
I'm sure as I've said it works well for a group and acceptably and not too badly for another group.
The major difference is quite a few of us here simply feel (still many many years/decades later) that school itself was the bad fit.
You could pull him out and home school him, should be easy.
Oh yay, another thread with Stevextc bitching (as excruciating length) about the failings of the UK education system.
I'm not going to read the whole thread, as it will split into 3 basic camps:
Teachers and those with a positive experience of education.
Those who disliked school, but who managed to gain an education or skills later on, and
probably now appreciate what school was trying to do.
Stevextc metaphorically sticking his fingers in his ears and going 'la la la' in response to anything that contradicts his blinkered views.
I think the only bit of school I really disliked was Games/PE. I was the "Odd boy who doesn't like sport" to quote Bonzo Dog. My games teacher would have been amazed to see me take up climbing/fell running/skiing/cycling later in life.
However I was at infants/juniors/grammar school from 1958 to 1972 when, I suspect, things were a little different to today's education system. Oh and by the time 6th form came around I could skive off games anyway (not formally, but because no-one cared).
Oh yay, another thread with Stevextc bitching (as excruciating length) about the failings of the UK education system.
I’m not going to read the whole thread, as it will split into 3 basic camps:
Teachers and those with a positive experience of education.
Those who disliked school, but who managed to gain an education or skills later on, and
probably now appreciate what school was trying to do.Stevextc metaphorically sticking his fingers in his ears and going ‘la la la’ in response to anything that contradicts his blinkered views.
The difference is I read the thread... whereas your response is "fingers in his ears and going ‘la la la’"
The same response I expect you give to the children being made ill and scarred for life should they ever try and explain they just don't want to be there.
and that is the real problem. Given recent tragic events I'm not going to harp on about the worst consequences
Those who disliked school, but who managed to gain an education or skills later on
Some did and other's didn't gain an education or skills later ... but regardless that doesn't take away the trauma and scars.
You could pull him out and home school him, should be easy.
Who? If it's directed at me why would I do that when my lad is happy enough at school?
One way or another he'll gain the qualifications he needs even if the school can't help him. So long as he doesn't hate it and become ill then its free childcare.
Right I'm probably going to get banned for this (or at least told off).
The difference is I read the thread… whereas your response is “fingers in his ears and going ‘la la la’”
The same response I expect you give to the children being made ill and scarred for life should they ever try and explain they just don’t want to be there.
and that is the real problem. Given recent tragic events I’m not going to harp on about the worst consequences
**** you. Yes you Stevextc. **** off.
I've just spent the last 9 months trying to teach, support, nurture, and sometimes just listening to upset and traumatized kids of all ages.
I've done this while the govt and ****ing right wing press have constantly talked down and denigrated teachers.
We've had our pay frozen, had to work all hours, no ppe, and **** all social distancing.
And come January I'm now expected to start administering ****ing covid tests while teaching a full timetable to some students in school and some working remotely at home.
I'm stressed out, at the end of my ****ing tether, but I hold it together so the kids don't see how ****ing scared I am.
All you do is bich about schools and teachers, but don't add anything helpful or constructive as far as I can see.
Come on then if your so ****ing good, teach.
Or volunteer in a school, or do anything other than constantly ****ing moaning.
**** off.