MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Just been given a sixty quid PNC for an overnight stop at a service station that I know for fact I didn't stop at - the complication is that I know this because the services are a mile from home and I use them as a handy junction, so the cameras see me coming into the northbound services in the evening, then exiting back onto the northbound carriageway next morning. Is it worth disputing on the basis that I took the sneaky 'no entrance/exit' routes out, or would their response then be 'in that case, sir, that'll be £120 and six points (or whayever)'?
FWIW the sneaky entrance/exits have quite a bit of traffic and have done for years - a police car followed me past the signs and onto the motorway only yesterday, I half expected they'd want a word but just cruised merrily past me on the motorway.
So in theory the camera might not have seen you leave as you used an unofficial exit you mean? Hence assuming an overnight stop?
Good luck
That's definitely what happened, Scoop - thanks Frank. 🙂
Not sure I'd want to admit breaching motorway regulations to get off a parking fine. Any other way of proving your car was elsewhere overnight?
Who issued this 'notice'? If it was a company operating the Services' car park then that's very different to something issued by the Police/a traffic warden.
The former is merely an invoice for overstaying. If it is one of those then ask them to prove you car was parked there overnight, highlighting that there are multiple exits from the car park and at least one is clearly not covered by their cameras.
Also if the sneaky entrance/exit is private land then I'm not sure if you've broken any laws(?)
Just say you took a "wrong turn" on the way out?
Someone I worked with got a ticket for parking at McDonalds too long...
But he in fact had just been there for breakfast and lunch in the same day
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px;">"But he in fact had just been there for breakfast and lunch in the same day"</span>
Poor bastard hope they are ok
😐
What company?
sounds very like you’ve been given a parking charge. It’s highly unlikely if you challenge it they will then report you for using the exit. That would prove their Camera recognition is defective recording entries and exits.
you can fight it. You didn’t park so don’t owe anyone an excess parking charge. It will be a bit of work though. Depends if you can be arsed really.
go to pepipoo for much better advice if you want it!
I like wiggles idea, say you entered and got confused, took a wrong exit. Apologise profusely.
These pcn s are a real pita. I let my parking space privately, about once a year a ticket is issued, various reasons...windscreen wiper obscured ticket, car parked incorrectly (maybe tyre was touching white line, no idea i d lost the will to live reading it). Anyway, each time i wrote to issuer and ticket was cancelled.
Massive waste of everyone s time.
Is this Gaydon M40 southbound?
There's a sneaky way in/out there I've used before. Must remember not to.
The image I've been sent are from a limited company who operate car park management services - I'm sure, if it came from the police or other government body, it would be obvious. The services are listed on DMorts's link (cheers for that, very handy!) - d'you know, I think we'll contest it and see what happens.
Thanks all - your help is invaluable and much appreciated as always. 🙂
Not Gaydon, Kayak. Can I say the services/company? Don't want this thread to be used as evidence against me (although I suppose the evidence only confirms I didn't park!).
Private company - tell them what happened and suggest they get an effective monitoring system in place.
tbh, *anyone* they issue a ticket to could claim this and they'd have no way of disputing it.
If you've got one ticket, potentially you could get one every time you use the secret exit. It may get a bit expensive.
M6 by any chance? 🙂
A fair few services must have a “secret” way in/out for local staff. Tebay certainly did a few years ago, we stopped there for lunch when cycling past...
I think in your contesting of the parking company you only have to point out that there is a rear exit, that someone could leave the services by it one day, and enter again the next therefore appearing to their cameras on the motorway slipways that they stayed overnight. Ask them to provide evidence your car was on their land overnight.
I think you can draft a contest letter without actually saying "I used the rear exit". The 'notice' is only for overstaying it can't be switched to being for misusing the exit (unless this has been very clearly stated, which I doubt). By entering such a car park you also enter into a contract for its use. The terms of this contract must be made clear to you, hence they post the terms on signs everywhere. I doubt the terms would say "no use of rear exit or you will face a charge" or similar.
The Police won't care about your actions unless a road traffic offence has been committed. Aren't the fundamentals, you left the public highway, drove onto private land/car park, rejoined public highway? Then repeat the next day
Police are highly unlikely to be interested you for contravening road restrictions on the say-so of some shitbag parking company. If they had seen you do it, they might be inclined to have a word, or not, depending on whether they could be arsed.
So I would be telling the Parking company that I used the secret entrance. Having said that, I'm sure their fair and balanced appeals adjudicator would try to throw this out, so you may have to persist with the case until it reaches someone sensible.
Knutsford Travelodge actually tell you to use the back entrance. I'd contest it with your proof of address to show that you have no need to park there overnight. If you can show any activity from home that night, all the better e.g. email sent with home ISP IP details.
Can only agree with all the above. I would write to them and say 'sorry about this, yes I parked there but used this exit (provide a picture) and clearly it is not covered by your cameras otherwise you would have logged my exit.
Yours etc
Get yourself over to http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163 Money Saving Expert forum. Read the FAQ. It is important to understand who issued the ticket to understand the appeal procedure. These parking companies are little more than scammers and expecting them to let you go on mitigating circumstances is a hiding to nothing. They have to make their money somehow right...?
DON'T reveal who was driving. This is very important.Even on the MSE forum just refer to 'the driver' drove through the garage, not 'I did'. VERY IMPORTANT.
There isn't any silver bullet for this but easy to win. You need to adapt the very arguments to your own situation.
Did I say don't reveal who was driving?
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px;">DON’T reveal who was driving. This is very </span><span class="skimlinks-unlinked" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12.8px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; color: #444444;">important.Even</span><span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px;"> on the MSE forum just refer to ‘the driver’ drove through the garage, not ‘I did’. VERY IMPORTANT.</span>
Law has change and they can go after the registered keeper now.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px;">expecting them to let you go on mitigating circumstances is a hiding to nothing</span>
Yeah, but taking the longer view, it wouldn't stand up in court would it? I.e. the fact that the OPs home address is local and there is another very usable exit/entrance, throw large doubt on the OP overstaying in the car park. The parking operator would lose and they'd know it.
Just be prepared to provide evidence that you didn't park there.
Living nearby suggests you have no need to park there overnight but proves nothing. But the fact they don't monitor all entrances/exits provided for staff use suggests their "proof" is on shonky ground already though.
I recently received a PCN for a similar incident so I thought I'd share how I dealt with it and also my circumstances to see if there were any similarities.
The PCN contained two images of my car. The first image stated it was me entering the service area. The image was actually me leaving by the access road (rear entrance etc). The second image designed to be proof of me leaving the service area (two days later - I had ridden my bike the day before to work) was the same camera (again showing me leaving the service area by the access road).
My grounds for appeal were completely open and transparent. Both images actually show me leaving the service area (by the access road) and neither images shows me actually entering the service therefore they could not prove that I had stayed there for the period of time they claimed. I suggested in my appeal that the camera which captures cars arriving at the service area from the exit should have my image or they should check to see if this was not working at the time.
Within a day or two I received confirmation that appeal had been successful. I think quite a few folk locally were caught at this time and successfully appealled leading me to believe there was a problem with the camera capturing the cars entering the service area by the exit slip road.
I am not sure if the OP mentioned what the location of the cameras were which prove he stayed there over night
"Law has change and they can go after the registered keeper now."
True. But the Parking companies have to follow POFA 2012 to transfer that liability. Most of them don't do that correctly so when they go after the keeper the liability hasn't been transferred properly. So don't reveal who was driving as if you do they don't have to jump through those hoops and get them wrong!
Thanks for all the advice folks, good stuff. Leaving the motorway, the picture shows the driver ( 😉 ) taking the slip road leading to the car park. The picture joining the motorway shows the car leaving the lorry park and joining the road that exits the car park (as opposed to leaving through the car park exit itself). So they should have a picture of the car, about 20 seconds after the initial image, showing the car leaving the car park and heading towards the lorry park. Frankley services, northbound on the M5 if you want to Google map it.
Does that make sense? Would the car park itself be CCTV'd, as that would clearly show me transiting the car park without stopping.
"Yeah, but taking the longer view, it wouldn’t stand up in court would it? I.e. the fact that the OPs home address is local and there is another very usable exit/entrance, throw large doubt on the OP overstaying in the car park. The parking operator would lose and they’d know it"
True that. But depending on the parking company some are quite litigious. Unless you know what you're doing to defend a lot of these companies DO get away with it and are successful at the Small Claims court. Understanding Skeleton Arguments, Witness Statements, Defences etc. A lot of legwork and stress and is not for everyone. Some companies back out at the last minute. Some instruct solicitors who don't have a clue.
Some (Parking Eye) have got their act together and present a good argument at Court to the letter of the law.
Best to quash it early at POPLA if possible.
I've quashed two of these. Before you say 'you shouldn't have parked there'. Both were due to very unclear signage where I had just turned around then got the photo later. Scammers the lot of 'em. I've received good advice from the MSE forums and if you follow the instructions you won't be paying.
Do you have an android phone. They keep a rough track of your location even if Location is switched off. That may be your evidence that you weren't there all night.
https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3118687?hl=en
Activity controls linked from the link above. Location History. Turned mine off years ago but it might work for you...
“Just be prepared to provide evidence that you didn’t park there.”
I think the onus of proof is on them. Unless they can prove he didn’t leave by another exit, then it’s not the OP’s problem.
As others have eluded to. I would be surprised if the was any traffic regulation order enforcing the restriction of the private access so you shouldn't be breaching any traffic regulation orders by using the private access as there shouldn't be a TRO for a private access. It is for them to secure their own barrier and therefore you can dispute that you weren't there.
Ask to see the entrance and exit evidence on both cameras as you would have used both services in that 24 hour period as you often use them as they are convenient for a hot drink and fuel etc. however as you live locally you don't stop more than 20-30 minutes as that defeats the object of convenience and have NEVER stayed overnight therefore they must have some issue with their cameras or number plate recognition.
Tell them that you have neighbours who have said they will verify that car was parked outside your house on that night.
You can also say you will be requesting what personal data they have on you on May 25th (GDPR) and how that data is processed as this has sparked a concern about how they process your personal data and if it is correct.
Thank you all, much appreciated - appeal lodged, no admission of driver or specific entrance specified, just a statement that clearly one of the entrances is not covered as the vehicle didn't even stop. I shall keep you posted. 🙂
Now - let's see if HTML tags work... 🙂
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">
</span>If you’ve got one ticket, potentially you could get one every time you use the secret exit. It may get a bit expensive.
It should only be an issue if I take the exit one day, then rejoin heading in the same direction the next day, I think. If I leave, say, northbound, then rejoin the next day southbound, clearly I've not been parked in the services all night. 🙂
Do you have an android phone. They keep a rough track of your location even if Location is switched off. That may be your evidence that you weren’t there all night.
Thank you for this and all other priceless advice! 🙂
however as you live locally you don’t stop more than 20-30 minutes
That's kind of the kicker, I didn't even stop! Good luck to them finding a picture of the car parked, or me anywhere in the services. 🙂
They work a bit, then, if you de-format the copied text! 🙂
I’m pretty sure (99%) that there is no offence committed by using these ‘back doors’. Whilst it is discouraged, no specific legislation exists. The only potential offence is the civil one of trespass. Personally I’d just ignore the parking charge. This is not particularly good advice, and certainly risks it going wrong, but it has worked for me in the past, more than once. The way I see it is that once they have a proven interaction with an actual human being, it becomes worth their while to harass you, because they know that statistically, people are likely to cough up for an easy life. No reply and they give up quickly as I bet they often don’t manage to open dialogue due to incorrect details etc, and statistically these cases aren’t worth investing the time in. Like I said, NOT good advice, but it definitely has a good chance of working, especially in your case whereby if it DID go to court they’d look pretty stupid anyway.
A quick update - appeal reviewed, notice cancelled, no further action will be taken. Thank you, friends, for your sage advice. 🙂