Forum menu
Or why it will never be safe to drive above 30mph on a straight, well maintained, well lit dual-carriageway?
It might not be about safety!
It might be to reduce noise or air pollution.
it’s how the roads are categorised…
Yes, but my point is, the way roads are categorised is not always appropriate. As @andrewreay mentions, "simple rules applied to complex, multifactor situations don’t always give the right results"
Regarding your Highway Code point... Do you think you could you please drop the condescension? There's really no need for it. I think most of us are reasonable adults, attempting to discuss an issue sensibly. We may have different points of view on this but I think we should be able to treat each other with some respect & civility. Thank you.
No law is perfect. And we need people to point that out in order to drive change and bring about better, fairer laws.
Driving above the speed limit is absolutely not the right forum for doing this though. The law might be nonsense, the limit completely inappropriate but there are methods by which to challenge and debate that. Deciding it shouldn't apply to "you" isn't that method.
Or that simple rules applied to complex, multifactor situations don’t always give the right results?
They often give better results than complex rules (that commonly still seem arbitrary) do though, where the complexity makes adherence and enforcement difficult.
and, separately (or maybe not), the whole idea of PCCs is absurd.
+1
Police shouldn't politicised. They are there to enforce the law, not interpret it. If the law is out of date, or doesn't have public support, that's what Parliament is for. Parliament makes the law, the courts interpret it and the police enforce it. The Tories in particular seem to have a problem with that.
Going back to the original point of the thread about PCC's, Derbyshire has got a new Tory PCC, a replacement for the previous Labour one.
One of her priorities is apparently more Community Speedwatch and ANPR and CCTV.
Although that might easily be a sort of toothless alternative to actual speed cameras.
One of her priorities is apparently more Community Speedwatch and ANPR and CCTV.
Although that might easily be a sort of toothless alternative to actual speed cameras.
ANPR not so much but the CSW is a necessary step, CCTV a helpful one, toward getting speed cameras in place short of multiple fatal accidents.
CCTV is, combined with ANPR, also useful for dealing with other road safety issues.
correct, I’m already 100% right, so being more right is impossible 😉WRITING IN CAPITALS DOEN’T MAKE YOU MOAR RIGHT
it’s a valid point, the rules of driving are not difficult to understand, & the way speed limits are implemented make sense & don’t need changing. You literally said that you thought speed limits were arbitrary, so you obviously do need to do a bit of work understanding them, I can assure you they are not.Regarding your Highway Code point… Do you think you could you please drop the condescension?
20 mph limits are brilliant, because they make people drive at 30mph
I think there should be blanket 20 limits in all towns and villages
Ideally with average speed cameras
It will be a nationwide improvement
Yes to improving other aspects of driving but it’s difficult to catch, prove and prosecute.
bit of a so what ... because
Speeding is definitive and easy to catch. Look at it another way people who speed (either through inattention or reckless selfishness) are also likely to display other bad habits.
Not really plenty on here who think the only important bit is speed limit...
"yeah so I'm doing 70 in the middle lane... not my prob if someone wants to break the law undertaking me"
I play a "game" with the lad sometimes, predicting who will go onto the motorway and then go straight into the middle lane. I didn't tell him how I win so many times, one way is it's the same people can't stay in lane in the roundabout.
Increase the cameras, catch more people, it’ll either wake them up to the fact rules of the road aren’t optional and they need to up their driving standards or they will quickly get disqualified through totting up.
That's not going to catch any of the 65mph middle lane hoggers or lane drifters is it?
Problem is that requires actual policing...
The biggest issue with this is the messaging ...
Don't drink and Drive (yep cool)
Don't speed (yep mostly cool except passing lane hoggers and swervers)
Don't run red lights with cameras on ... unless your on a bike (tick)
.. anything else is perfectly good driving...
FYI, 35+ years driving and only convicted of a single traffic offense in that time (pulling into a bus lane to let a fire engine past)... and never been in an accident whilst my vehicle was moving... once when I was 9-10 got hit by a lorry whilst stationary (obviously not driving) and another getting bumped at the traffic lights when the car behind set off when the filter light came on.
I believe I am experienced enough to know how to safely drive to the conditions. Sometimes, that means I will feel safe to drive above the speed limit that has been assigned to that particular road.
To quote Baz Luhrman.
"We all think we are better drivers than we really are"
Clicky for psychology research about this.
Being able to walk on a straight line and touch the end of your nose with the tip of your index finger does not prove your reactions aren't significantly slower though does it?
^supposed to be in reply to above comment about using US style roadside sobriety tests^
Our one gets £83k pa.
Resembles a school dinner lady
Nice gog if you can blag it
Rang the police Saturday afto . 999, hi yes a guy has just come out of a pub and now hes sat in his car getting stoned.
Ok sir, thats not a 999 level call, please ring 112 to report that. I sat on hold for 5 mins and gave up.
Not the answer i was looking for
I absolutely guarantee that you have driven at 71mph on a motorway before.
Bearing in mind that most speedos overread to a degree (because it's illegal to underread and near-impossible to be dead accurate without GPS), to be doing an actual 71 you'd likely have to be doing closer to 80 on the dashboard. So I can believe that there are people who have never gone above 70 on a motorway (even if they might think they have accidentally).
the speed limit is not the minimum target to aim for, as a driver you still need to assess each road according to the conditions. If you cannot understand or do that then you shouldn’t be driving. If you crash because you were driving too fast FOR THE CONDITIONS then you run the risk of being prosecuted for careless or dangerous driving regardless of the fact you were under the speed limit.
Whilst I don't disagree with any of this post, if the metric is appropriate speed then it rather begs the question as to what the point of limits is in the first place, does it not?
Speed cameras and limits are normally in place after someone has **** died.
No. Limits are on every single inch of public road in the country.
Speed cameras should be in accident blackspots yes, but this is exactly the argument myself and others are making - that they often aren't. See dangeourbrain's post: a camera right on the transition point between urban and NSL, you're suggesting that's anything more than a shameless revenue earner? If it isn't then the sign needs moving back as it's clearly in the wrong place.
You often see this as they ‘launch’ their cars off/over speed bumps.
To be fair, I don't know how widespread this is but round here there's a lot of wildly inappropriate speed bumps. It'll say 20 on the sign but if you hit these things at anything more than walking pace you'll rip your damn wheels off.
Or why it will never be safe to drive above 30mph on a straight, well maintained, well lit dual-carriageway?
Dual carriageway limit is NSL which is 70mph for cars. You might choose to ignore speed limits but you should at least know what they are.
If a dual carriageway has a 30 limit then there's probably an extraordinary reason for it.
I do not regard myself as some driving god.
Oh you do, you certainly do. Exceptionalism writ large.
The rules are set for the least competent amongst us and those that acknowledge that they can make a mistake from time to time. The limit is there to ensure that any mistake has least impact on you and the surroundings/others.
There are those among society that are unable to cope with nuance and will decide the wrong course of action in most instances this is why limits and rules are as they are.
Pointless anecdote:
This morning I was following a right pillock (they had helpfully given advanced warning with a big green "P" on their car)
Wouldn't exceed 20mph (through a variety of 30 and 40 limits) crossed the central line numerous times, nearly hit the kerb, and when we finally parted ways with them turning right at a set of traffic lights, I really thought they were going to need a 3 point turn to make the bend.
Was concerned for the safety of everyone in their path, small country town, lots of elderly and mums with buggies on pavements that appear and disappear; and spent the time wondering how on earth they got a licence.
Conversely, wednesday night, after having a single pint of 3.8% beer, I was doing 45 on a dead straight 40 that a decade ago was a NSL, and got passed by popping and banging Focus who must have been doing at least 70. Was completely non-plussed at the entire situation, and hope Mr Focus enjoys his hobby as much as I do mine.
To quote Baz Luhrman.
“We all think we are better drivers than we really are”
Clicky for psychology research about this.
Two separate claims here, the clicky says people think they're above average which isn't quite the same.
Do I think I'm a better driver than I actually am? Probably.
Do I think I'm an above average driver? 100%, hell yes.
I had this argument at (ah, irony) a speed awareness course years ago. They asked who thought they were above average, I put my hand up, they said "that means your overconfident." Not at all, rather I think the standard of your "average" driver is a woefully low bar and if I thought myself to be an average driver I'd take the bus.
The first statement is overconfidence. The second is not, it is a comment on everyone else.
You do realise that P means they have just passed their test don't you? So basically it could be any of our sons or daughters there who might just need a bit of slack from the driving god behind who is trying to crawl up their exhaust pipe. Your comments just mark you out as an intolerent road user who could probably do with a bit of a refresher themselves.
Edit: Or the driving god below
Wouldn’t exceed 20mph (through a variety of 30 and 40 limits) crossed the central line numerous times, nearly hit the kerb, and when we finally parted ways with them turning right at a set of traffic lights, I really thought they were going to need a 3 point turn to make the bend.
Ah, one of the Never-Speeders. These people are convinced they're the safest drivers out there because they always drive at 5mph below the posted speed limit. In doing this, they never take their eyes off the speedo, the go from (say) a 40mph to a 30mph by standing the car on it's nose at the limit change and then gradually, in a series of jerks and swerves and braking, they get it to 25mph again.
In a 30mph zone (driving at 25mph), they will attempt to overtake a cyclist who is doing 20mph while at the same time rigorously adhering to their 25mph. This means that the pass takes 30 seconds of near miss bellendery as the driver solemnly refuses to look up from the speedo.
Cougar
I had this argument at (ah, irony) a speed awareness course years ago. They asked who thought they were above average, I put my hand up, they said “that means your overconfident.” Not at all, rather I think the standard of your “average” driver is a woefully low bar and if I thought myself to be an average driver I’d take the bus.
The first statement is overconfidence. The second is not, it is a comment on everyone else.
It's also a pointless and stupid question.
"Better driver" can mean all sorts of things.
Ironically that might (or does in my book) mean assuming the roads are full of worse drivers than me therefore I need to take even more care and be even more alert.
You do realise that P means they have just passed their test don’t you? So basically it could be any of our sons or daughters there who might just need a bit of slack from the driving god behind who is trying to crawl up their exhaust pipe. Your comments just mark you out as an intolerent road user who could probably do with a bit of a refresher themselves.
Well aware what a P means - also know its not mandatory, so almost always ends up being an indicator of a terrible driver.
At no point did I attempt to crawl up their exhaust pipe, given their very obvious incompetence and possible impending accident I reckon I was giving them more room than I would normally give someone at 40 or 50mph.
If noticing and describing a frankly dangerous level of incompetence is the only marker for intolerance, then guilty as charged.
20 mph limits are brilliant, because they make people drive at 30mph
I think there should be blanket 20 limits in all towns and villages
They've done this as a trial where I live and it seems that 90% of the population are absolutely furious, properly loosing their sanity over it. The complaints are simply absurd. The include gems like "kids are going to die form asthma as slower speeds increases pollution" to "buildings are going to fall down from increased vibrations from lorries". My favourites include "I never get to see my kids any more as I am so late home from work (due to driving slower)" and "Its more dangerous as I get so bored driving at 20mph that I end up just looking around or going on my phone".
What most people don't realise is that is really doesn't make difference to your journey time, it just feels slower. Reality is you might arrive somewhere a minute or two later.
Unfortunately populism is probably going to win over road safety and it likely be revoked and limited to near schools. It will be an reminder that cars and drivers rule to road and everyone else is a less important consideration..
What most people don’t realise is that is really doesn’t make difference to your journey time, it just feels slower. Reality is you might arrive somewhere a minute or two later.
More than that, depending on the volume of traffic lower limits (adhered to) commonly improve journey times. Traffic has to be very light for them to increase journey times.
I absolutely guarantee that you have driven at 71mph on a motorway before.
But cameras / camera vans don't catch people doing 71mph. If, however, you're doing 85 or more you should know about it and your lack of observation of both your speed and the camera van mean that you've no one to blame but yourself.
Having said that I'd double the penalties for someone who is doing 90 before a gantry camera but 65 as they go underneath it - not only have you demonstrated that you're aware of your law-breaking but that you're also a knob as all the traffic that you just overtook piles into the back of you.
It’s also a pointless and stupid question.
Wasn't me asking it.
But yeah, you're right. It's essentially a honeypot, they're setting you up to fail. I just wasn't putting up with that crap, they deal with abject morons day in day out and aren't programmed to field someone who has actually read THC in the last decade. #DrivingGod #Obvs
“Its more dangerous as I get so bored driving at 20mph that I end up just looking around or going on my phone”.
This is actually a thing, believe it or not. There was a TV series a few years ago, might've been 'Britain's Worst Drivers' with that horrendous Maureen woman, or I might be conflating it with something else. Anyway. They had a black cab driver in London who drove everywhere like he'd stolen it. They had him drive within the speed limit and his driving actually got worse because he was bored off his tits and away with the fairies rather than paying attention to what he was doing. Probably what you need there is a career change.
More than that, depending on the volume of traffic lower limits (adhered to) commonly improve journey times.
Absolutely right, no waiting around at junctions as it is much easier to pull out into traffic.
Following the idiots who have to 'make progress' on the A65 on the weekend by overtaking anything going under 60 is always amusing - 30 miles later they are inevitably about 30 seconds further up the road behind someone else.
Hovering on the bumper of the car in front for that long must be so tiring, too.
Well aware what a P means – also know its not mandatory, so almost always ends up being an indicator of a terrible driver.
That is literally what the P sticker is there to tell you! Bit like a 'Leeds Rhinos' sticker.
If we are talking about Allott then I've got a meeting with him in a few weeks. Be interesting to see what he has planned.
He is the PFCC btw, not that he mentioned the Fire Service in his election push, which is a worry.
North Yorks does seem rather blessed in that department though. No sooner have we got rid of Julia ‘Cyclists can **** off out of my village’ Mulligan, then another Conservative Central Office mouth-breather is ushered in.
Regardless of whether you agreed with her I can assure you she was very far from a 'Conservative Central Office mouth-breather'.
Can you explain why a ‘limit’ of 50mph, which even in the eyes of someone as irresponsible as me, will never be safe
You can actually go at 60mph.
This thread has far too many people using "" in a passive aggressive manner, it all feels a bit Daily Mail comments section.
Just be careful, its a slippery slope and before you know it someone will slip in "so called" as in, the "so called" Police and Crime Commissioner. Then its game over.
Regardless of whether you agreed with her I can assure you she was very far from a ‘Conservative Central Office mouth-breather’.
Fair enough. And it's nice to see that Priti Patel has installed this former Tory councillor, parliamentary candidate, and pcc, into another role as 'independent' chair of the Police Advisory Board.
He is the PFCC btw, not that he mentioned the Fire Service in his election push, which is a worry.
Well there's not much to say really is there? When was the last time someone moaned about the fire brigade putting out the wrong sort of fires, only attending profitable accidents or prioritising rescuing cats from trees I posh areas?
I pay little attention to the speed limit when driving and regularly exceed it. That said, I also drive well under the speed limit in many situations.
There are two reasons this is bad:
One is predictability. When everyone is driving broadly the same speed, everyone else finds it far easier to predict what's happening.
The other is that your assessment of what a safe speed is might be wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, including me and including you.
Just stick to the limit people for ****'s sake it's not difficult. I find it incredible that people complain bitterly about driving standards AND IN THE SAME THREAD argue that people should be allowed to drive at whatever speed they feel is appropriate. Can't you see a flaw in that?
They had him drive within the speed limit and his driving actually got worse because he was bored off his tits and away with the fairies rather than paying attention to what he was doing.
So what you're saying is that he was a bad driver and needed to learn to pay attention? Not really anything to do with speed, it's more about responsibility for your actions.
These people are convinced they’re the safest drivers out there because they always drive at 5mph below the posted speed limit. In doing this, they never take their eyes off the speedo, the go from (say) a 40mph to a 30mph by standing the car on it’s nose at the limit change and then gradually, in a series of jerks and swerves and braking, they get it to 25mph again.
I don't consider myself a perfect driver, but I am somehow able to control my speed without staring at the speedo all the time. If the awesome drivers on here are so awesome that they can make their own rules, how come they can't keep tabs on their speed?
Cougar
Full MemberTwo separate claims here, the clicky says people think they’re above average which isn’t quite the same.
Yup. I have no doubt that I'm an above average driver. Not saying I'm a Driving God, it's just a criticism of general driving standards, the average is very low.
To be better than average you pretty much just have to drive to could-pass-a-driving-test standard, and pay attention.
I find it incredible that people complain bitterly about driving standards AND IN THE SAME THREAD argue that people should be allowed to drive at whatever speed they feel is appropriate. Can’t you see a flaw in that?
I see a flaw in that no-one's actually said that.
So what you’re saying is that he was a bad driver and needed to learn to pay attention? Not really anything to do with speed, it’s more about responsibility for your actions.
I'm just sharing an anecdote rather than opining on it. I thought it was curious, was all.
To be better than average you pretty much just have to drive to could-pass-a-driving-test standard, and pay attention.
I'd contest that. The general standard of driving in the UK is actually pretty good and the average isn't that low. Sure there are some real shockers and a reasonable number of not greats but, if the average standard was as bad as its often made out none of us would be driving around having not been involved in an accident and so on.
It's like the all cyclists area a menace thing, you remember the shockers, rarely the average never notice the shining examples (because if they stand out it's because something has gone wrong).
There are literally millions of journeys every day that go by without incident, that simply wouldn't happen if the average driver really was a liability.
As the sentiment goes - if it's everyone else, it's not anyone else.
I don’t consider myself a perfect driver, but I am somehow able to control my speed without staring at the speedo all the time. If the awesome drivers on here are so awesome that they can make their own rules, how come they can’t keep tabs on their speed?
Me too.
The one thing that’s pretty much always forgotten in these threads is others. Other people driving, walking, running, cycling etc. Limits are also there for them. You can claim to be a driving god with the reflex speed of a snake but, if somebody or something else does something unpredictable you’re as ****ed as the rest of us.
Low speeds are good because it takes less time to stop and normally there is less chance of serious injury and death when shit goes sideways. Nobody cares if you think road A should be a forty and not a thirty limit and because you’re super awesome you’ll drive at forty. No, stop being a dick.
Have to say, re controlling your speed without looking at the speedo, I had to change my opinion a bit on that when I got an automatic- it pretty much goes at the speed it wants to. Taking away that direct connection between engine and wheel speed makes a big difference, something that used to just be absolute reflex/background processing is now something that always takes a little thought. Oh you want to hold your speed going down this hill? Be a shame if I... upshifted for you.
dangeourbrain
Full Memberif the average standard was as bad as its often made out none of us would be driving around having not been involved in an accident and so on.
Things have to go very wrong for there to be an actual collision. "Nobody got hit" isn't a good metric for adequate driving. "Someone could have got hit" generally means things went exactly as badly wrong on the part of one driver, but other people or luck prevented it from becoming a collision.
Think of it from a cycling point of view- unless you take a pretty aggressive primary, you will be overtaken illegally close on pretty much every road ride. On my commute, actual good safe passes were the minority. Overtaking safely is a trivial job, a highway code basic, something you're supposed to have learned before you even start your lessons.
if somebody or something else does something unpredictable you’re as **** as the rest of us.
Low speeds are good because it takes less time to stop and normally there is less chance of serious injury and death when shit goes sideways. Nobody cares if you think road A should be a forty and not a thirty limit and because you’re super awesome you’ll drive at forty. No, stop being a dick.
The point I've eventually matured to. Having a lad who has just learned to drive was very informative as well. Shook me out of a few bad habits, including regularly being 1-2mph over the limit.
All traffic laws need enforcing, and we need a Police, court, DVLA and retest system to enable that to happen. I don't give a shit if a temporary ban for 12 points inconveniences you, if a punishment doesn't inconvenience you it's not a punishment. If I can only pick up 3 points in 33 years of driving, why can't you?
Electric cars likewise, they're so quiet that it's harder to judge speed. Happily they're fitted with a limiter so I just set that to whatever the limit is allowing for speedo error and lee way. In these parts I get the impression that almost everybody uses a limiter/regulator in the same way because I hardly ever feel the need to overtake and rarely find people on my bumper.
Most people drive pretty well when sober, not under the influence of anything else, not messing with the phone/gps/ICE or not going for it for whatever reason.
Edit: after our yellow vests put most of the fixed radars out of action the government changed tactic. There are now ordinary-looking cars being driven around by civilians with radars that measure and record the speed of every vehicle around them in both directions. So you might be being radared at any point you are shaing the road with a newish looking car. I think a lot of people have just thrown in the towel on going fast and just set the limiter in resignation.
I’d contest that. The general standard of driving in the UK is actually pretty good and the average isn’t that low.
And I'd contest that.
The general standard of driving in the UK is likely higher than in a lot of other countries, but it's not good enough. The number of collisions I see on a day-to-day basis is very low but the amount of random ****tery I see is off the chart.
My local Tesco is five minutes' walk away and I can say with a degree of confidence that if I were to drive down right now at 6pm on a Friday evening I'd have to make at least one evasive manoeuvre to avoid some Country and Western on the wrong side of the road or pulling out of a side street without looking or axing round a 90' blind corner at escape velocity.
Do you not think that's just because there's like a billion cars per square foot in this country. Well, a billion people per square foot who all have cars would be more accurate. Transplanted to another, more spacious country, we're probably awesome drivers.