[Closed] Our (level headed) MD saw a "ghost" last week!

Talking of Alice

[i]When he got home his wife, who is some kind of spiritualist detected his unease. She "examined" him and said he'd been visited by the spirit of a caretaker who had died in the factory's boiler room.[/i]

So did a caretaker die in the boiler room? Or have I missed someone already asking?

I've had an 'experience' and I'm a non believer. It made me feel warm and safe.

Tell us more

Davidtaylforth in Elland by any chance?

If so I've been in there. Nothing sinister but Im amazed with counsellors/planning all round it over the years that it still stands

Not my pic but apparently its haunted
http://www.panoramio.com/m/photo/37010903

There were two recentish deaths in my house. Both with the same bloke a St Retford copper.

Nothing sinister- just a sad coincidence but one of them used to pop up for two years in a row in the kitchen where she passed away. Always at a similar time.

Im neither way tbh. If there was money to be made, boy there'd be billions spent investigating it but as it is its always a semi-focused/funded search.

I love ghost stories.
I will tell myself and anyone else they don't exist.
When I get called to work in dark switch rooms in empty buildings, I get the heebie jeebies, big time.
I could read a book that categorically proved ghosts did not exist, I'd still be very nervous in your typical haunted building situation, you could say it's the thought of a burglar or something but its definitely the fear of the supernatural.
It most probably is something to do with the brain and the films and programmes I watch are ingrained in my mind but I must admit if im being honest, I am so adamant they don't exist to overcome they fear that they might!

You knew what I meant

I know what you meant, but there's no evidence for it so it's not any more valid a belief than believing that God is a 6'2" man living on a distant planet called Koleb.

too many wanna be scientists on here

There are lots of [i]actual[/i] scientists on here.

too many wanna be scientists on here

hat is up there with being told you are logical and rational - I cannot imagine why anyone would try and use this as an insult.

Lots of folk who have no idea of the tone of their posts when dismissing others too.

Science can't teach manners it seems.

nor apparently can not "believing"in science but hey lets gloss over that to make a polite dig instead of an impolite one

Impolite people in not liking being told about it SHOKKA! 😀

Science can't teach manners it seems

Science doesn't pretend that it does.

What made you think I objected? i simple pointed out, as is the STW way, that both sides were on occasions rude.

It's extremely difficult (actually, nigh on impossible for me), to not be patronising (bordering on downright rude and dismissive) to adults that should know better spouting absolute nonsense. It's 2013, and it's not like the truth isn't out there for everyone to discover.

We live in a bizarre society/world, if someone tells me the Queen is a shape-shifting lizard I can mock them openly, indeed, they could even be Sectioned under the Metal Health Act. However they talk about ghosts or gods or spirits, and apparently I should respect their views. Well I absolutely don't. They are ignorant (meaning they don't have knowledge).

It's extremely difficult (actually, nigh on impossible for me), to not be patronising (bordering on downright rude and dismissive) to adults that should know better spouting absolute nonsense.

I think this is a bit sad. I hear people spouting rubbish and nonsense quite a lot of the time. I was on a building site most of last week and heard lots of folk spouting some right ol' shite - to be fair they would mostly have been guys who probably left school at 16 and never spent a day in education for the remainder of their lives to date. I could be rude and dismissive of them and insist on educating them but why bother really?

Of course, for some, it's easier to be rude and dismissive when they're banging angrily on a keyboard.

Good to see TUK is having a nice relaxing Sunday.

If you'd have written that post, the nib would've snapped clean off

Cool your boots.

Are you being rude and dismissive calling someone a keyboard warrior ?
Is derek?
Still at least you can turn the other cheek in the real world 😛

Are you being rude and dismissive calling someone a keyboard warrior ?

No.

So its a respectful term that conveys respect
Who knew [ certainly not the dictionary anyway]

So its a respectful term that conveys respect

Well, if I'd used the term in the first place...

miketually - Member
You knew what I meant
[b]I know what you meant, but there's no evidence for it so it's not any more valid a belief than believing that God is a 6'2" man living on a distant planet called Koleb.[/b]

too many wanna be scientists on here
There are lots of actual scientists on here.

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

I never said there was any evidence! 🙄
The thing is your trying to tell me your right? As are all the scientist types on here, you cannot explain what is known with what is unknown.

Junkyard - lazarus
too many wanna be scientists on here
hat is up there with being told you are logical and rational - I cannot imagine why anyone would try and use this as an insult.

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

No insults meant, thing is your coming across as more insulting with your patronising.

I never said there was any evidence!
The thing is your trying to tell me your right? As are all the scientist types on here, you cannot explain what is known with what is unknown.

Science admits that there are things that are unknown and then tries to uncover what they are - if we knew everything, research scientists would be out of a job. What science doesn't do is fill in the gaps with wishful thinking.

Religion and 'spirituality' are attempts to fill in the gaps without evidence.

[url=

scientists are doing[/url].

miketually - Member
What scientists are doing.

POSTED 45 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

So basically, he doesn't have a clue!
Yeah great example of a scientist. 🙄
But at least he's being honest which I like.

Sounds like Tucker needs to grow up and get a grip tbh.

So basically, he doesn't have a clue!
Yeah great example of a scientist.

He is an excellent example of a scientist. He doesn't know, so he tries to find out rather than just making up something that feels nice and warm and fuzzy and being content with that, or believing in whatever god(s) his parents happened to believe in.

Science isn't about knowing things, it's about trying to find things out.

miketually - Member
So basically, he doesn't have a clue!
Yeah great example of a scientist.
He is an excellent example of a scientist. He doesn't know, so he tries to find out rather than just making up something that feels nice and warm and fuzzy and being content with that, or believing in whatever god(s) his parents happened to believe in.

POSTED 46 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Fair do

No insults meant, thing is your coming across as more insulting with your patronising.

Junkyard - lazarus
No insults meant, thing is your coming across as more insulting with your patronising.

Who knew wanna be scientist was not a dig
PS more insulting contradicts you somewhat as it implies you are also insulting just that I am more so - I think it may also prove the patronising comment
POSTED 32 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Oh dear...you win then 🙄

[img] [/img]

It's extremely difficult (actually, nigh on impossible for me), to not be patronising (bordering on downright rude and dismissive)

That's your failing then isn't it.

Nobody forces you to be rude

you could just ignore it.

But you choose not to.

Trouble with keeping an open mind, is people keep chucking rubbish into it.
Organic, your photo is excellent, I had to zoom in and out several times to really get what I thought I was seeing. Very clever, very subtle, I love it! 😀

allmountainventure - Member
I heard a dead cat once... yeah I know, an effing cat!. The sound came from the table where it died although its body was about 50m away, outside, on the opposite side of the house. My mate heard it too and jumped up saying "what was that", never did tell him about the cat though, so how did we both hear the same thing? No drink or drugs involved, no sleep deprivation and so on... just a plain old table where a cat died half hour before my mate came round... Would love some one to explain it... preferebly not with some thing equally bizzare, like I was staring down a wormhole.

deadlydarcy - Member
Are you being rude and dismissive calling someone a keyboard warrior ?
No.

You were perfectly happy using it in a rude and dismissive fashion to a not entirely serious post of mine, a little while back...

Yes, you deserved it. You were being a keyboard warrior. As you often are.

Night.

Of course there are ghosts/spirits/whatever you want to call them ...

The reasons scientists do not want to know because:

1. It is pointless because dead people are dead. i.e. carbon.
2. Can't change the past.
3. It is a research into the intangible.
4. Most religions distort the facts. i.e. creationists.
5. Funding - not material research hence can't convert into cash.
6. Fixated on material future.
7. Too vast an area to research i.e. not narrow enough to be defined.
8. etc ...

🙄

The reasons scientists do not want to know because:

There is no evidence?

jam bo - Member

The reasons scientists do not want to know because:

There is no evidence?

Nope. No interest due to above reasons.

Steps in research ...

Topic/interest etc -> research -> evidence -> research -> evidence -> research -> ... chicken and eggs -> bored -> new topic/interest -> research -> evidence -> research -> evidence -> research -> ... chicken and eggs ... make money ... bored ... New topic etc ...

I'm going to start my argument strongly by paraphrasing "Thor" 😉

Science to primitive cultures often looks like magic.

Smart, intelligent and in my eyes totally trustworthy people I know have told me about there experiences with ghosts and déjà vu. On ocassion I have heard about things before they happened. Unfortunately they did not include the lottery nos.

I would like to think that I have a strongly scientific mind. I have no problem reconciling these with science. There is still stuff out there we can't explain. To me that's awesome! One day we will be able to explain and it'll be fascinating to find out what the scientific explanation is.

I find it really sad that some people in the name of science dismiss everything they're uncomfortable about there is still a whole lot we haven't been able to figure out yet, there is no reason to close your mind.

I think human perception is definitely involved in the ghost stories and déjà vu above. I think one of the ways this could be explained is in M-theory, where time is not linear and there are more dimensions than we perceive. But I only have an amateur knowledge of this and I look forward to some Einstein in the future linking it all together.

Chewkw, how come you know so much about science and how it works?

Oh for God's sake, get on with the ghost stories will you?

5. Funding - not material research hence can't convert into cash.

I would think ghosts would get US Deparment of Defence research grants, if they thought they existed.

7. Too vast an area to research i.e. not narrow enough to be defined.

Like climate change?

There are lots of actual scientists on here.

Awesome I'm not sure I qualify quite yet though, not got a PhD yet so I'm not a 'proper' scientist. Getting there.

There's a Noble prize for the scientist that proves ghosts exist, so there is a good reason to look for them. Unfortunately, there's no evidence to show anything exists. I'd love them to exist, but I'm not holding my breathe.

Indeed fame and riches would await anyone who had proof/evidence
They have been trying since at least the 18 th C to do this and still cannot produce any evidence but we have uncovered many tricks and charlatans

Read into thsi failure what you will as to whether you should still keep an open mind

I'm going to start my argument strongly by paraphrasing "Thor"

Science to primitive cultures often looks like magic.

Thought that was Arthur C Clarke's (apparently not so) famous quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." But he was an author, not a scientist, so I'm not sure his opinion is reliable 😉 But there again I don't think he wrote any ghost stories...

not got a PhD yet so I'm not a 'proper' scientist.

I only [i]teach[/i] science, so that probably means I'm not a proper scientist either 🙂

I think I know a way round the PhD problem, one of my friends when waiting to get a PhD place ended up buying a centrifuge, a microscope and spectroscope and half a tonne of laboratory equipment and ended up getting published! If I can do that, I think I can call myself a 'proper' scientist. I'll see if I can find the papers.

Thought that was Arthur C Clarke's

Definitely was but I thought Thor has more cred these days 😉

It is interesting though. Science on the whole is about degrees of certainty.

It is highly likely that man made climate change is real (>99% certain?) but it is not 100%. That high degree of certainty and impact means that any rational person should take it seriously and do something about it.

Ghosts - cultural evidence and from those that I have met suggests that there is something going on. Hard data is difficult to obtain. We know that our mind's perception is limited and that there is a lot more going on in the world (time being non-linear, extra dimensions, etc...)

Probability of ghosts existing.... ??

Probably higher than the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

To me it's not in the impossible box but not in the ">99%" certain" box.

To me it's not in the impossible box but not in the ">99%" certain" box.

To me, it's in the <0.1% box, along with Russell's teapot, the FSM, leprechauns, Zeus, etc.

There's a Noble prize for the scientist that proves ghosts exist

EDIT: The Noble prize is awarded by the American Society of Civil Engineers, for a paper published by someone under the age of 35 (the only criteria I can quickly find). I call BS on that post above.

The Noble prize is awarded by the American Society of Civil Engineers, for a paper published by someone under the age of 35 (the only criteria I can quickly find). I call BS on that post above.

So how did Higgs win it then he's not under 35 by a long way, have you checked all the Noble Prize lists?

Noble Prize

Nobel Prize

Oh! 😳

I haven't added up [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal ]the list of prizes for proving supernatural events[/url] but it'd seem like a slam dunk for some research if anyone had a chance of claiming them.

have you checked all the Noble Prize lists?

Yep 🙂

[url= http://www.asce.org/Content.aspx?id=17405 ]Noble Prize Past Award Winners[/url]

I haven't added up the list of prizes for proving supernatural events but it'd seem like a slam dunk for some research if anyone had a chance of claiming them.

But it depends on the evidence being easily obtainable. Similar prizes for say discovering the Higgs Boson would not be claimed unless they were substantial enough to cover the outlay to build a Hadron collidier.

There is clearly some sort of phenomena happening, we have yet to build the theory or the tools to build a repeatable experiment.

There is clearly some sort of phenomena happening, we have yet to build the theory or the tools to build a repeatable experiment.

Yes, as explained earlier....your brain is ****ing with you.

We have built the theory and the tools to test this in repeatable experiments.

Similar prizes for say discovering the Higgs Boson would not be claimed unless they were substantial enough to cover the outlay to build a Hadron collidier.

Uhhh. I believe the Hadron Collider was built using government grants, if governments thought there was something to "ghosts" being real then I'm sure as I stated earlier...that the US DoD would have their dirty fingers in the pie.

There is clearly some sort of phenomena happening, we have yet to build the theory or the tools to build a repeatable experiment.

Or the alternative hypothesis that there is nothing happening that cannot be explained by current theory and tools.

In the previous pages we've had claims of an allegedly perfectly repeatable event relating to books flying off a shelf. Don't think we're talking LHC money to put up another shelf in the house are we?

Or the alternative hypothesis that there is nothing happening that cannot be explained by current theory and tools.

Well that certainly fits the bill in some cases - probably most especially when charlatans are at work trying to con people.

However there are just some cases that just cannot be easily dismissed. The book in the link below is a good example - it could be easily dismissed except it happened to a leading neurosurgeon who was able to look at all the usual explanations for what he went through. The guy certainly isn't crazy and, I'd argue knows more about the human brain than anyone posting in this thread.

[url=Proof of Heaven] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Proof-Heaven-Neurosurgeons-Journey-Afterlife/dp/0749958790/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381756893&sr=8-1&keywords=proof+of+heaven [/url]

Then there are cases of mysterious disappearances such as those covered by this book:

[url=Missing 411] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Missing-411-Western-United-States-Canada/dp/1466216298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381757233&sr=8-1&keywords=missing+411 [/url]

Again, very well researched. Both of these are easy to dismiss until you read them and realise the extent to which the authors know their subjects and are backed up by credible witnesses/professionals.

Scepticism is healthy but an open mind that there are still things out there that science can't yet explain is healthy too. After all science is littered with over turned theories that at one time or another were thought credible. Even the wackier ones like expanding Earth theory only got properly demolished in the past 50 years once better technology could be used to measure plate tectonics.

Proof of Heaven? Seems like he missed one theory out of his book :-

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/proof-of-heaven/

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-near-death-experience-isnt-proof-heaven

Maybe 'Proof' is a bit strong, eh. Remember books can be published by anyone, journals only tend to publish papers that have been through some sort of review (note - this doesn't necessarily make them correct either).

I think any scientist would love to be the first to [b]prove[/b] that there is some sort of supernatural force - whether they're physicists, biologists, psychologists... whatever. The founding of an entire new branch of science would be an epic achievement - but it doesn't seem to be at the forefront of research.

That's not because they don't have open enquiring minds - science isn't about meekly accepting the work of those that have gone before, but about checking it, challenging it, finding holes in it, and trying to fill those holes. The bigger the hole in previous work, the greater the challenge.

Remember the kerfuffle when someone thought they'd found evidence of faster than light travel? Were they ridiculed because they disproved Einstein? No, they published their data and asked everyone to check what they were seeing. Why would they behave any differently if they, for instance, found evidence a new plane of existence or a telekinetic force?

ETA - for those who say that the area of the paranormal doesn't fit in with current science I'd suggest you take a look at psychological research into the consciousness. Lots of difficult questions remaining to be answered there - [url= http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/psych01.htm ]here's a primer[/url] from a psychologist who incidentally spent a while studying [url= http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html ]parapsychology[/url]

There's a Noble prize for the scientist that proves ghosts exist
Citation needed
EDIT: The Noble prize is awarded by the American Society of Civil Engineers, for a paper published by someone under the age of 35 (the only criteria I can quickly find). I call BS on that post above.

I think you are well aware of what was meant - do either organisation given awards to pedants?

There is clearly some sort of phenomena happening,

Many folk report the presence of god in their lifes for example
Some claim to be able to feel magnetism. Some can read your aura. just because some folk claim it is so does not make it real.

However there are just some cases that just cannot be easily dismissed

but an open mind that there are still things out there that science can't yet explain is healthy too.

After all science is littered with over turned theories that at one time or another were thought credible.

Even the wackier ones like expanding Earth theory only got properly demolished in the past 50 years once better technology could be used to measure plate tectonics.

However there are just some cases that just cannot be easily dismissed. The book in the link below is a good example - it could be easily dismissed except it happened to a leading neurosurgeon who was able to look at all the usual explanations for what he went through. The guy certainly isn't crazy and, I'd argue knows more about the human brain than anyone posting in this thread.

I tell you what explains that. First off, he's a surgeon and therefore a ****. Secondly, he suffered massive brain damage and consequently lost the plot - real scientists have been known to lose the plot as well and believe in bollocks. The infamous one being Peter Duesberg.

TA - for those who say that the area of the paranormal doesn't fit in with current science I'd suggest you take a look at psychological research into the consciousness. Lots of difficult questions remaining to be answered there - here's a primer from a psychologist who incidentally spent a while studying parapsychology

There are much better primers than that now, blindsight is a hell of a lot better understood than it was back in 2001. (I believe)

I think you are well aware of what was meant - do either organisation given awards to pedants?

Either? Neither the American Institute of Civil Engineers, nor the Nobel Foundation seem to do a prize for ghostbusting so it's still cobblers regardless of which was intended.

However, whether they give awards to pedants is hard to answer without investigating all the winners. It seems that they don't give awards for pedantry, but whether any of those who won awards for other things were also pedants is not easily judged. Certainly, I can't see anything that says that people who are pedants are disqualified, so it is quite likely that they do, or certainly could, give awards to pedants.

btw

I think you are well aware of what was meant - do either organisation give[s]n[/s] awards to pedants?

FTFY. You're welcome.

True Tom, but that one had the added bonus of an author who spent 25 years trying (and failing) to find scientific evidence of paranormal activity and eventually turning their back on the whole subject.

Neither the American Institute of Civil Engineers, nor the Nobel Foundation seem to do a prize for ghostbusting so it's still cobblers regardless of which was intended.

You don't think conclusive proof of ghosts would result in a Nobel prize?

You don't think conclusive proof of ghosts would result in a Nobel prize?

Seems fairly likley. Proving the existance some sort of indestructable 'soul' would be pretty incredible*.

*for the pedants, I believe incredible is used correctly here.

I tell you what explains that. First off, he's a surgeon and therefore a *. Secondly, he suffered massive brain damage and consequently lost the plot - real scientists have been known to lose the plot as well and believe in bollocks. The infamous one being Peter Duesberg.

That's pretty much the type of ad-hominem response I expected 😉

You have not read his book, and yet you describe him as a * for being a Surgeon and then state he suffered serious brain damage - which if you read the book you would know that he did not.

His recovery in itself is a minor medical mystery as all the machines he was hooked up to showed he was clinically brain dead with no neural activity for an extended period. The doctors looking after him really did not rate his chances of survival.

Having read the book I can pick holes in it and surmise what may have happened with logical explanations... but these are all things he tries to explain as to why he thinks them unlikely - the fact he is a neurosurgeon is what makes this part of the book interesting.

Get hold of a copy and read it; it has some horribly American emotional bits, and the guy was already a church goer before his illness but those are not reasons to dismiss his story out of hand. It's probably unlikely to change your view point but at least you'd probably have some respect for the chap...

Its far more littered with areas of study now debunked - mysticism, alchemy, homeopathy, astrology etc and the scientific method was what led to them being replaced. this is sciences strength - you cannot use it as weakness - as it shows that with enough evidence you can persuade science to switch paradigm unlike those of "faith"

Even the wackier ones like expanding Earth theory only got properly demolished in the past 50 years once better technology could be used to measure plate tectonics.

You mean the did some empirical measures , found no evidence of it and rejected it ...wow imagine !

You clearly like preaching to the converted, I find myself tempted to strongly argue in agreement with you, but what's the point, you'll just find a stronger argument to agree back at me with...

We are not agreeing as you seem to think that some areas cannot be easily dismissed

His recovery in itself is a minor medical mystery as all the machines he was hooked up to showed he was clinically brain dead with no neural activity for an extended period

ed correcting my typos is a FT job, enjoy- you seem to anyway :wink:.
As to the only point you made as noted above you are wrong. If you captured and proved the existence of a hitherto unknown phenomena of this magnitude [ghosts]you would be awarded.

It's great that science can now give us a good explanation of near death experiences and out of body awareness. We didn't have those explanations until recently.

I have yet to see equivalent explanations for shared ghost experiences (like the cat meow) and for deja vu (earlier post seeing his dad twice). The only explanations have been nope they must be lying or mistaken.

I think there is probably more to it. The lack of hard evidence and that its based on personal perception make for a difficult study. Yet even on this small sample of a forum we have people who have experienced these things.

Can the next STW poll be - What paranormal experience have you had? 😉

.. I once saw a trail come alive...

I have yet to see equivalent explanations for shared ghost experiences (like the cat meow) and for deja vu (earlier post seeing his dad twice). The only explanations have been nope they must be lying or mistaken.

There are three possibilities:
1. The person making the report is lying;
2. The person making the report is mistaken;
3. Cat ghosts.

I'd say that explanation 3 is the least likely one, wouldn't you?

I have yet to see equivalent explanations for shared ghost experiences

Me neither, but it's certainly curious.

Miketually, you almost completely paraphrased my comment from early on in the thread 🙂

A mate of mine tripping with some others got chased by aliens [ in a ship initially then they beamed down] and they all ended up split up as they ran away and yet they all saw the same thing 😯

Not sure how I would explain that either but it really happened is not amongst my choices

Miketually, you almost completely paraphrased my comment from early on in the thread

You're overlooking the obvious telepathic connection between your minds, after all how do we know mike had seen your post? Spooky!

When I was very young (approx 4 or 5), as most young'uns would do, I occasionally went into my parents room to sleep during the night.

On something like a dozen occasions, the next day, I would recount to my parents that 'the man drinking tea was waving at me again (last night)'

In fact I have a vivid memory to this day, of seeing a transparent figure of a man pacing up and down the end of the room and occasionally waving at me. I seem to also recall him holding a cup and saucer and sipping from it. And sometimes sitting down in a chair.

It wasnt until I was about 13 that during a family gathering this subject came up in conversation and my folks let on that the only reason we lived in that particular flat/conversion was because the previous occupant commited suicide - in that bedroom (therefore becoming available quickly/at a good price).

Apparently having a 4 year old tell you about the ghost in your bedroom after such an event is fairly disturbing!
Still, an offering of PG Tips would have kept things on an even keel no doubt..

Mum also told me a few years later that one night she also felt dad getting into bed, and freezing as she felt his hairy legs brush against her legs - as my dad doesnt have hairy legs.
Apparently she got straight out of bed, and of course there was no one else in it.
She never told dad as she knew it would be rubbished, but I could tell from her explanation that she had been genuinely spooked.

Yes, there is always a logical explanation, but its interesting to consider the possiblilities never the less.
I'm not a 'believer' as such, but that experience from all those years ago sends a little shiver to think about now.

You have not read his book, and yet you describe him as a **** for being a Surgeon and then state he suffered serious brain damage - which if you read the book you would know that he did not.

"Scans of his brain revealed massive damage".

[img] [/img]

the fact he is a neurosurgeon is what makes this part of the book interesting.

Do you find Peter Duesbergs claims about HIV interesting just because he was a prize winning scientist beforehand?

Buhahahaha

Alexander also writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of E. coli bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while Dr. Potter says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating.

You're overlooking the obvious telepathic connection between your minds, after all how do we know mike had seen your post? Spooky!

There are two possibilities:
1. Molgrips and I have a telepathic connections;
2. We both spend too much time on STW.