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😀 yeh I had seen that.
This should also amuse you. In a cheap shot schadenfreude sort of way.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/apr/18/david-cameron-stung-by-jellyfish?CMP=fb_gu ]Jelly CMD[/url]
People lining up to piss on him I imagine.
Hang on, that sounds a wee bit wrong. I do not have a david cameron golden shower fetish. Not any more than normal anyway.
Maybe a little bit more than normal.
"People lining up to piss on him I imagine"
I would ,reluctantly, if he was on fire 😉
Scots only dislike Cameron because he sounds so English that you can't bare it. What has Cameron done to this country compared to Gordon Brown and Tony Blair? I am surprised you can even stand up with such a big chip on your shoulders.
Ah, is there a thing where you can't dislike Cameron without loving Brown and Blair? I didn't realise.
Fnf Could it be I dislike Mr Cameron because of coalition policies?
Scots you say...... 😉
I do however quite like chips.
Scots only dislike Cameron because he sounds so English that you can't bare it. What has Cameron done to this country compared to Gordon Brown and Tony Blair?
You completely undermine your own argument within two sentences. Tony Blair sounds every bit as English as David Cameron.
Sorry, have missed this for a few days, so playing catch up.
[quote=ernie_lynch ]An independent Scotland would be just like Scotland is today, nothing would feel or be noticeably different and claims by the Yes camp and some within the No camp that it would be are quite untrue. Both arguments are offering false dreams, one which involves a blissful situation of happiness and fulfillment, and the other a nightmare full of fear. Reality won't be like that.
except a little earlier in the same post
Just one example - the UK has food and children's clothes zero VAT rated, new member states are not allowed to have food and children's clothes zero VAT rated, but the UK as an existing member state is allowed.
So there will be a significant difference - either food and children's clothing will get a lot more expensive or iS won't be a member of the EU.
Seems reasonable
Might even get them to refit the carriers as well.
So there will be a significant difference.....
Of course there won't be a significant difference, as I said, "nothing would feel or be noticeably different".
OK, there might be 5% VAT on food and children's clothing (I don't know where you get "a lot more expensive" from) so what? In the way Scotland feels, it won't be different.
When this lot that you voted for bumped up VAT to 20% did Britain feel noticeably different ? Did the new rate of 20% change Britain significantly ? Of course not.
As I said both the Yes camp and some within the No camp are claiming that "independence" will bring huge changes to Scotland. IMO that's false and there is no credible evidence to back it up. Gradually over a period of time Scotland might become less wealthy but I doubt whether it will be very noticeably. How many people have noticed that wages, as percentage of GDP, have fallen significantly in the last 30 odd years ?
Might even get them to refit the carriers as well.
Absolutely. Bath Iron Works could easily handle the carriers, and I'm sure there are other US yards who could do it.
ernie, I think changes will be vast, and not for the better, you disagree yet fall generally on the no side. If changes are so small why do you reckon it really matters which way Scotland votes?
I think long term it will be bad for both Scotland and the rest of the UK. But I don't think it will create anything like the upheavals some are suggesting, why would it ? Scotland will have the same economic model as now, real power will be in the same hands as it is now, nothing much will be that different. Obviously Scotland will lose some of the influence it has at the moment, and it will be competing with a large neighbour which will have no responsibility towards it.
The case for Scotland going its own separate way hasn't been made imo, and the Yes argument appears to be based on nothing much more than petty chauvinism. More true patriotism and less petty chauvinism, is what I would suggest.
I certainly don't think the yes campaign is indulging in "petty chauvinism" no one as far as I know has claimed any form of superiority.
The case for Scotland going its own separate way hasn't been made imo, and the Yes argument appears to be based on nothing much more than petty chauvinism. More true patriotism and less petty chauvinism, is what I would suggest.
Can you give some examples?
bencooper - MemberCan you give some examples?
What do you want examples for ?
I said : The case for Scotland going its own separate way hasn't been made imo, and the Yes argument appears to be based on nothing much more than petty chauvinism. More true patriotism and less petty chauvinism, is what I would suggest.
If you don't agree with me that's OK.
Ah, okay, you're just making a pronouncement without evidence.
Can tell you're a Better Together supporter 😀
Call it a pronouncement if you want, athgray asked me a specific question concerning my opinion and I gave him an answer.
Why do you think it might be important for me to attempt to influence your opinion ?
After 106 pages I've come to the conclusion that nothing is likely to change your mind. Are you suggesting that I might have made a miscalculation ?
I'm just curious what examples of petty chauvinism you've seen in the Yes campaign. If you can't think of any, that's okay..
I didn't say I couldn't think of any, I'm just not interested in giving you any.
I think it would be reasonable to assume that whatever examples I might give you they will be completely unsatisfactory to you. So I'm not really interested wasting my time, although apparently you want to waste your time disagreeing with me.
EDIT : Just to clarify - it's the lack of a credible argument and instead in its place the strong dependency on emotional appeal which has led me to this conclusion. I've seen it right through this thread.
You have an interesting discussion style.
You mean like preferring to focus on an exchange of opinions and ideas while at the same time ignoring pointless arguing ?
Everyone has their own opinions often as the result of a lifetime of experience, they are unlikely to change them because of a single argument/debate. So unless you need to convince yourself of the virtue of your own argument, then arguing is fairly pointless other than to offer alternative suggestions.
You made a statement, I asked you for some examples of what you said, this seems to have upset you.
If you want to make statements that you can't or won't back up with evidence, that's entirely your choice, it's just not a very effective way to convince people.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm honestly interested in why you think the Yes campaign is based on petty chauvinism.
Anyhow, there's a new poll out - ICM for the Scotsman:
http://m.scotsman.com/news/martin-boon-a-pollster-entering-uncharted-waters-1-3382088
Excluding undecideds, it puts Yes on 48%.
this seems to have upset you.
What a strange conclusion to come to 🙂
If you want to make statements that you can't or won't back up with evidence, that's entirely your choice, it's just not a very effective way to convince people.
Well that's the point - I'm not trying to convince you. I've already pointed out that if you don't agree with my opinion that's OK.
Excluding undecideds, it puts Yes on 48%.
In other words less than half of Scots. Why is it that with less than 6 months to the historical vote the majority of Scots still remain unconvinced ? I still think the Yes camp will probably win, but only just.
I can't see how the overwhelming majority of Scots, [i]throughout[/i] the campaign, wouldn't be supporting Yes if the Yes camp was providing a credible argument.
[b]The world according to Ben Cooper[/b]
If something very slightly supports the yes campaign it is gospel. If it doesn't and is backed up by rock solid facts I will pretend that it does back up the yes campaign anyway by stating my personal opinion as a fact. I will also add a smiley at the end of my statement because the yes campaign is the positive and happy campaign 🙂 😀 😆 Then I will raise a glass with Mrs Cooper to an independent Scotland.
[img] 
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Huh, I'm a minority in a minority.
Mrs Cooper has better hair than Mary Doll.
Fnf,
What as opposing to you making sweeping statements about voting for Indy because you don't like English accents or THM's exact same viewpoint subbing anything from rUK as both fact and better? Yeah,can see how you have any cause for complaint.
Well come on now Daily Express which one is it in the r UK edition
[url=v http://m.thepaperboy.com/uk/daily-express/front-pages-today.cfm ]ruk daily express 22nd April[/url]
meantime in the scottish edition
[url= http://www.express.co.uk/news/retirement/471709/Scottish-pensions-are-safer-within-the-UK ]Scottish daily express tue 22nd[/url]
This thread makes me want to do toilet.
Gordimhors linking skills make me want to go toilet, let alone the rest of the thread.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/retirement/471709/Scottish-pensions-are-safer-within-the-UK
I believe these are the ones in question.
Yes that's the one thanks pm.
Aye, that was funny. Though not really any funnier than Gordon Brown warning about pensions. Along with the Better Together posters featuring people with the Daily Mail Sad Face (TM) 😉
What's funny about Gordon Brown's warning about pensions ?
He's not exactly got a brilliant record when it comes to pensions. When he removed the ACT relief it cost pension funds about £100bn in value, £5bn per year.
THM's exact same viewpoint subbing anything from rUK as both fact and better?
More salmond-esque distortions form the Duckman. The invitation to falsify any specific points is still open.
teamhurtmore - MemberTHM's exact same viewpoint subbing anything from rUK as both fact and better?
More salmond-esque distortions form the Duckman. The invitation to falsify any specific points is still open.
Not really,that is what you have done since the thread started,of course backtracking where necessary e.g as you did on Osbourne which even Ernie called you on.
In the last week or so you have claimed that the no campaign was pretty tame,(despite previously having said they should focus on positives) and linked to the Analysis defence paper which contained the "facts" "if we looked hard enough".
Am I making any of that up?
Yes you are and again.
The NO campaign is pretty lacklustre that is there for all to see. That does not equate to there being no positives. I have invited you to explain how the introduction to the document is pitched in a negative way and you still have yet to make a single point to justifying your point. Not surprising that. I even quoted the document to help you out.
Talk about desperate.....
So the point about the Russian ship discoved by a trawler doesn't suggest that the Defence document is BS and the "facts" contained within quoted by you are not an example of
THM's exact same viewpoint subbing anything from rUK as both fact and better?
I would say using tweets as a first line of defence is a fairly big indicator that maybe all is not as the SA document suggested.I would also say that mentioning this to you was me pointing out a negative..What do you think?
I fail to see how those two "news reports" are mutually exclusive?
One says we're all in the shit, the other says the Scots might be even more in the shit come independence.
I think I just felt seepage. 🙁