[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

EU law stating that independence means leaving the EU

You're just not listening are you?

To whom? Experts in international law can't agree on what would happen, so who should I listen to?

This is another of those issues - like currency - which will be sorted out through negotiation after the referendum.

sbob - Member

Clearly Scotland already complies
Britain does, Scotland doesn't.

So if the situation in Scotland didnt currently comply with the conditions for E.U. membership then the state that did not meet conditions for E.U. membership would be the UK.

The UK meets its requirements as a member state. The UK does not meet the requirements for a [u]new[/u] member state.

And around and round it goes. I'm oot! 😆

So Ninfan are you saying that a group of financiers and industrialists see independence as the best way to keep scotland in the e.u

I think that about twenty five years ago they identified it as the quickest and most direct way into the Euro (currency) which is what they wanted and campaigned for, and despite everything else thats gone on, that really hasn't changed has it? In fact a commitment to it will be a prerequisite for Scottish membership, Lets not forget that the Sterling currency union was only ever planned to be a short term solution, a mere stopgap, non? What do you think the plan and timescale was after Sterling?, 😀

Plus they're shit scared of any chance of an EU referendum, which is why they sure as hell won't be offering the people of Scotland one, even though the polling sees a clear majority favour staying out of the EU after independence.

Wonder why that is? So much for a leap forward in accountable democracy for the people of newly iS 😉

gordimhor - Member

Its the UK that's the member state at the moment and Scotland is ,at the moment part of the UK . So if the situation in Scotland didnt currently comply with the conditions for E.U. membership then the state that did not meet conditions for E.U. membership would be the UK.

See Ernie's reply.
I've already linked to the EU legislation that states Scotland would leave.
Can you link to the EU legislation that supports your view?
I'd be happy to change my view if you can. 🙂

Britain does, Scotland doesn't.

so they will already have lost a member and reapplying

I do I suppose at least admire the levels of optimism shown.

FWIW I agree the negotiations wont be so you want to join ah ok then. they may want changes, iS may want changes but they will most likely end up a member.

Whilst we are discussing this any rUK supporter willing to sate the rUK EU position for 5 years time ? Still lets just attack the side we dont like eh with an argument that works both ways 🙄

I think you will find Scotland is in the EU

The UK is in the EU, not Scotland as an independent state, so this:

I am not sure there can be any wiggle room for discussing whether they meet the EU criteria tbh.

is not on the mark.

I dont think there will ever be a point when it is not technically a member

I've linked to the EU legislation that disagrees with you.

I think the EU likes to expand and I think it likes to keep member states. Is this really a falsely optimistic view of them?

The false optimism comes from the view that either Scotland won't leave, or if it does it will be able to rejoin without opposition.
I've presented pretty hefty evidence to support this.

Whilst we are discussing this any rUK supporter willing to sate the rUK EU position for 5 years time?

Either massive reforms will be made to the EU, taking it away from the superstate that it is becoming, or we will be five years closer to leaving, with the other EU heavyweights close behind.

PS. "rUK supporter"?
Do you mean a Yes voter? Currently the UK is in favour of the UK as is.

I think you will find Scotland is in the EU

Scotland is in the EU like my house is in the EU.

There are 28 member states in the EU, Scotland isn't one of them.

If Scotland is not in the EU then scottish nationals dont have an EU passport ...what passport do they have? Is this not the type of argument that AS gets attacked for? Is it really worth discussing?
A new member state has to apply and it will become a new state[iS] applying long before it is a new member state of the EU. There is time for it to apply whilst still a member and this is what they will do.

Amusing on the EU but I would guess there would be a vote and so no one can say with any certainty...just like iS but at least we know what they want.

Does your house meet the convergence criteria?

There are 28 member states in the EU, Scotland isn't one of them.

And you moan at wee eck for piss poor arguments 😀

If Scotland is not in the EU then scottish nationals dont have an EU passport ...what passport do they have?

Do they not have a UK passport then?
I haven't seen a Scottish passport but then I haven't travelled abroad with a Scot.

If Scotland is not in the EU then scottish nationals dont have an EU passport

Are you saying my house isn't in the EU ?

Of course Scotland is in the EU.

Scotland is not an EU member state. It isn't even an independent country.

I don't believe England has any plans to become an independent member of the EU, which makes that argument...
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wait for it...
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Are you saying my house isn't in the EU ?

Its not a straw man 😥 If one part of the union is not in then neither are the others, I never said the others need to reapply i said that if that argument was true [ its not] then the others would not be in by the same criteria.

You knew that though its just that it has been so long 😉

Junkyard - lazarus

Neither is england ....is it also not in the EU?what about wales and northern irleand...they are not in either...shall I get a map of the eu from the eu and see what countries it has coloured in

Where's the bang your head against the wall smiley when you need one?

I really don't know how someone can fail to grasp such a simple concept which has been explained so clearly.

I've got a load of official maps I could post up if you like, though all of them show the United Kingdom as a member state, all in one colour!
Do you really need the extra help?

Keep it simple- will the EU want Scotland to be a member? Don't think anyone seriously disputes that it will.

So, faced with frankly inadequate rules which don't well address the situation of a consensual separation of states, will they a) interpret those rules in such a way that they get what they want, b) fix the rules so they get what they want or c) interpret the rules in such a way that nobody gets what they want?

That's the thing about making your own rules, if you don't like them you can make some new ones, and when it comes to interpretation you can say "Well, what we meant was..." Especially when the existing rules are so flaky.

The outcome of a Yes vote will be Scotland in the EU without significant difficulty. I bet you one iScottish drogna against your english pound. Who's up for it?

Is scotland in the UK?

What passports do they have then ?

Really ?

its not controversial to say it is in currently and iS needs to reapply.
EDIT: What NW said - lets be honest if they can make the euro work, stop having countries vote on the treaty when they started saying no, impose a greek govt of their choice then they can get scotland in easy peasy 😉

The outcome of a Yes vote will be Scotland in the EU without significant difficulty.

I'm not saying it definitely won't be as you describe, just that your opinion is contrary to the evidence.

[quote=Junkyard ]if they can make the euro work, stop having countries vote on the treaty when they started saying no, impose a greek govt of their choice

Well 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

If Scotland is not in the EU then scottish nationals...

The criteria for entry to the EU apply to those states which which to enter the EU. The UK doesn't wish to enter the EU so those criteria aren't relevant to it. Scotland (presumably) would, so they are. Scotland has never been an EU member state so it would be applying for membership, not reapplying.

This is so simple I can't tell whether you are being uncharacteristically stupid or just trolling, Junkyard.

I have the excuse of posting on here at 4.30am as I am away up the hills,some of the rest of you need to go to bed!

I knew there was something I had forgotten! 🙄

Silly sbob. 😀

Sbob you raised the point that Scotland in your opinion doesn't comply with conditions to be a member of the EU. At this moment Scotland is part of the UK , an EU member state. If any part of the UK didn't comply with the conditions to be a member the EU would have to take action against the member state ie the UK. Or change the rules 😉 Scotland clearly meets the requirements for EU membership as part of the Uk. One condition that it doesn't meet for membership in its own right is being an independent state which will hopefully be put right soon.
I have also linked to lots of evidence to support my view .
Westminster still hasn't approached the EU commission for its official advice.

Oh go on then, here's another poll

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-poll-shows-gap-narrowing-1-3377758

THE gap between the Yes and No camps has narrowed, according to a poll that shows support for independence at 29 per cent compared with 41 per cent who want to remain part of the UK.

The survey of 988 Scottish adults by TNS showed a slight tightening between the two positions when compared with a similar poll it conducted last month, which found a 28 per cent Yes vote and 42 per cent for No.

The results of today’s poll revealed that the Better Together lead has been reduced from the 19 per cent recorded in September last year to 12 per cent. The latest poll saw the proportion who say they are certain to vote reach a high of 74 per cent, up from 65 per cent in September. The survey found 84 per cent of Yes voters and 83 per cent of No voters will turn out on the day.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/positive-no-message-wanted.23979055

Sure I read the other day that the No campaign hasn't officially started yet. For the love of God I hope it's not as relentlessly miserable as it's been so far.

Anyway, back to snakker norsk. Just in case*
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*only part of this is true.

Way OT, anyone know of alternatives to Babbel?

Only better alternatives mind you.

This week's scare story is defence - we have Lord Robertson, the First Sea Lord, and the Defence Secretary (not yet a Lord) all weighing in. Amazing how a washed-up Scottish Labour politician, an English Tory politician, and a supposedly non-political military man all managed to co-ordinate their messages.

I know quoting yourself is the height of narcissism, but I just realised another one - that execrable BBC "helmets" cartoon.

So that's four - a Tory defence minister, a Labour lord, a non-political military man, and an independent national broadcaster - all deciding to focus on defence at the same time.

Anyone else find that at all suspicious?

If any part of the UK didn't comply with the conditions to be a member the EU would have to take action against the member state ie the UK.

Just one example - the UK has food and children's clothes zero VAT rated, new member states are not allowed to have food and children's clothes zero VAT rated, but the UK as an existing member state is allowed.

It's surprising considering how important EU membership is to the Yes camp how little they appear to understand about it. You would have thought that they might have done a little research on the matter.

And that appears to be the Yes camp and its supporters greatest weakness - very little thought into the consequences of their proposal, no credible plan, and a head buried firmly in the sand.

Conversely the No camp is dogged by idiots who suggest ridiculous scenarios that claim nonsense such as that an independent Scotland would find it almost impossible to join the EU.

An independent Scotland would be just like Scotland is today, nothing would feel or be noticeably different and claims by the Yes camp and some within the No camp that it would be are quite untrue. Both arguments are offering false dreams, one which involves a blissful situation of happiness and fulfillment, and the other a nightmare full of fear. Reality won't be like that.

sbob - Member

I'm not saying it definitely won't be as you describe, just that your opinion is contrary to the evidence.

What evidence is that then? It's clear that the rules that currently exist don't adequately cover the situation. It's clear that there is no precedent. And it's clear that the will of the EU will be to welcome Scotland- the disruption of doing otherwise would be huge, at a time when the EU is trying to expand, and facing enough internal challenges already. It's also clear that a new state emerging from an EU member is not the same as a new member from outwith the EU.

So where's the evidence against? All quoting treaties does is reinforce my first and last points, as far as I can see.

And [u]it's clear that the will of the EU[/u] will be to welcome Scotland

Its not [u]that[/u] clear is it?

Barroso keeps getting brought up and each time it's explained why his views have been shown to be wrong. And yet he's brought up over and over again. This whole thread keeps going in circles.

The longer and more intensive the argument goes on for. The more I feel that the scots don't like the English. Which makes me feel less inclined to go there.
Maybe Welsh trail centres will see an increase in usage.

The longer and more intensive the argument goes on for. The more I feel that the scots don't like the English. Which makes me feel less inclined to go there.

Why? There's no anti-englishness in this thread that I can remember? Some anti Tory stuff, but you get that everywhere, and some anti Westminster stuff, but that's nothing to do with being anti English people?

Not in this thread but in the news and stuff

it's explained why his views have been shown to be wrong.

No, its argued, its contended, its challenged - however its not been [u]shown[/u] to be wrong,

His opinion remains a valid viewpoint, the alternative opinions remain a valid viewpoint, none of us know for sure as the majority on both sides accept that there's some room for manoeuvre - However, its fair to say that means that its anything [b]but[/b] clear that the will of the EU will be to welcome Scotland.

Personally I'm inclined to think that his opinion is more tenable, and I'm basing that on his position within the institutions of the EU, as opposed to the opinion of the SNP, which until fairly recently contended Scotland was guaranteed entry, before accepting that wasn't the case.

ninfan - Member

No, its argued, its contended, its challenged - however its not been shown to be wrong,

Shall we agree it's not been shown to be true either? Which, given the nature of the statement and the supposed authority of the person making it, is a bit odd.

But more to the point, shall we also agree that what Pres. Barroso says in interviews is not "the will of the EU", on account of it's not a dictatorship?

Scotland has never been an EU member state so it would be applying for membership, not reapplying.

This is so simple I can't tell whether you are being uncharacteristically stupid or just trolling, Junkyard.

Neither I think I am being accurate and it is a bit strange to claim that it is not currently in the EU for reasons that are so obvious I am surprised they need stating tbh.
The UK is a member of the EU, Scotland is a member of the UK so Scotland [ by virtue of the UK Union ] is in the EU hence why anyone born there is an EU citizen, all EU citizens can reside there, they harmonise, they follow EU rules etc. If you visit Scotland are you in the EU or not? You seem to want to argue if you go there you are in the EU but it is not in the EU. Its preposterous tbh. Its like arguing Bavaria is not in the EU because only Germany is. FWIW as noted if it were true then England is also not in the Eu which is an equally daft claim.
We all know the UK signed it and iS has to apply but to say it is not in the EU , trading there, complying with the rules etc currently is just not true.

However, its fair to say that means that its anything but clear that the will of the EU will be to welcome Scotland

But more to the point, shall we also agree that what Pres. Barroso says in interviews is not "the will of the EU", on account of it's not a dictatorship?

I nearly choked on my pint on that one

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I don't believe there is any real anti English stuff on this thread, the same can't be said for other places on the internet though.
I don't hate Scotland or the Scots - truth be told they are about as relevant to my daily life as the inhabitants of Iceland.
I do however get tired of hearing that every ill to befall Scotland since the deaths of the first born is all the fault of 'The English' as gets trotted out tirelessly by some of the more exuberant Nationalists around. That sentiment is shared by many i know, & for that reason many of those think as i do - that we would be better off without Scotland.
This will keep on & on so best to do it now and be done with it.
The UK won't really take much of a hit in the longer term & at least we can be rid of all the incessant carping.

ninfan, here's the view of an expert on Barroso's comments: [url= http://futureukandscotland.ac.uk/blog/scottish-independence-and-eu ]"Barroso (or his successor) would be obliged to make a favourable recommendation to the European Council and not to invent new political criteria."[/url]. There's lots of points there, but I believe that is one of the salient ones.

I don't believe there is any real anti English stuff on this thread

Apart from the ludicrous comments I think from epicyclo about the clearances etc, and the numerous generalisations about how England = Tory/UKIP.

An independent Scotland would be just like Scotland is today, nothing would feel or be noticeably different and claims by the Yes camp and some within the No camp that it would be are quite untrue. Both arguments are offering false dreams, one which involves a blissful situation of happiness and fulfillment, and the other a nightmare full of fear. Reality won't be like that.

+1

Your showing your own bias there Grum you should be proud of being UKIP and Tory 😉
I think the general tone of this has not been anti english or anti scottish despite the odd example of both from a few fools.
AS attacks aside it has been largely a pleasant debate with the odd example on both sides being a bit anti.

I think the general tone of this has not been anti english or anti scottish despite the odd example of both from a few fools.

I'd agree with that.