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Well that's a fair analysis considering how popular the Tories are, how practically all the opinion polls since the last general election have given Labour a clear lead, how the Tories couldn't win a general election even after 13 years of New Labour governments, illegal wars, and a compliant Tory press which blamed the entire global recession on Labour. Yes the Tories and their hugely popular coalition partners are obviously going to walk the next general election and the "car crash" party which is Labour stands no chance.
Quick......tell everyone to vote for independence.
Well,it took 98 pages,but well done; confession is good for the soul,they say.
Good for the soul, and the only way to engage with the yS campaign. You have to become like them to understand them. It's brilliant being able to ignore what is going on in Europe and to imagine a world with no cons. I can see the attraction, it's like a happy pill.
Yup,all detailed in those wonderful SA documents you post,makes you want to break into a rousing chorus of Rule Britannia..err without the rules the waves bit obviously.
Ah,I see Ernie,we are voting for Indy to avoid a Tory government? 🙄
I know you're being sarcastic - but yes, it's wonderful to be optimistic about something for a change!
Which is perhaps why so many people are getting involved - if this referendum does nothing else, it's getting millions of people to show an interest in politics that they never had before because they thought it was pointless.
Ben, I will agree with you there and that is very healthy. Sadly this is not happening S of the wall despite the obvious consequences of the vote either way. I am all for challenging the current political framework/context which is far from healthy. But I do not think that the AS/Nigel Farage proposals are even close to a sensible solution. Two wrongs do not make a right!
Ooh, you're going with the "Alex Salmond is just like Nigel Farrage" thing? That's been a very popular line recently, comparing the SNP to UKIP - was there a memo?
No, I opened ears and eyes for just a moment. Probably wish I hadn't. Both spout populist gobbledygook in a loud and forceful manner (sad attempt to be alpha males) while pretending to be men of the people. The fact that both get away with it, is just a sad reflection on the current political landscape. The fact that other politicians struggle to compete with the loud, populist BS is also interesting in its own right.
Joking apart, the materials produced by both sided (BoD excepted) are actually full of very interesting analysis. Strip away the BS and the nature of the issues and the challenges are genuinely fascinating.
The SNP are the majority government of Scotland, while UKIP have how many MPs? The SNP are centre-left, very happy to have more immigration, while UKIP are, well, not. Apart from having charismatic leaders, there really aren't any similarities at all.
And, again, Yes isn't about just Alex a Salmond or the SNP. There's the SSP, the Greens, the Yes Labour group, non-politicians like Radical Independence, National Collective, Common Weal, Business for Scotland, etc etc.
Milliband is not electable. Tories may not be popular but come on milliband as pm? 😆
And, again, Yes isn't about just Alex a Salmond or the SNP. There's the SSP, the Greens, the Yes Labour group, non-politicians like Radical Independence, National Collective, Common Weal, Business for Scotland
That is quite a group - add in WoS and it's a full house.
and here we have thm's bias laid bare for all to see. 😆 not that it was ever in doubt mind! But its pretty obvious why you are against an IS beyond just keeping the union together.teamhurtmore - Member
That is quite a group - add in WoS and it's a full house
duckman - Member
Ah,I see Ernie,we are voting for Indy to avoid a Tory government?
Much of the rhetoric suggests that for sure. As many have said, we are still awaiting a rationale case for full independence - we hate Tory policies (even if true) is not the same thing.
Play yS bingo and hope you have "bedroom tax" on your card. Ticks all the boxes - repeated constantly, it's Tory, and the BS bit, it's not a tax. "House"!
teamhurtmore - Member
and here we have thm's bias laid bare for all to see. not that it was ever in doubt mind!
Unbiased with the inputs (facts), biased on the conclusion. Never denied that my conclusion (bias) is that the union is better for both Scotland and the rUK. It's great that yS agree too.
Still with such a powerful coalition there, we can rest assured that some honest reasons for a new independent states will arrive before the vote (unlike Godot and duck's answers).
Re UKIP and the SNP. It's not the substance (or obvious lack of it) it's the style and methods employed and the fact that other politicians are struggling to deal with it. Joe Public enjoys popping happy pills. Cold turkey is less fun though.
UKIP is nothing like the SNP
For a start, UKIP want independence from the EU institutions, so that they don't have their laws, regulations, immigration, financial, trade, manufacturing, agriculture and fishing policies all set by an undemocratic elite in a different country
whereas the SNP want independence from an undemocratic elite in a different country (England) so that they can forge closer ties with the EU and its institutions, and in the process are willing to surrender their laws, regulations, immigration, financial, trade, manufacturing, agriculture and fishing policies to an undemocratic elite in a different country
Eh? 😕
We really should change the thread title, the currency union topic is so last month.
This week's scare story is defence - we have Lord Robertson, the First Sea Lord, and the Defence Secretary (not yet a Lord) all weighing in. Amazing how a washed-up Scottish Labour politician, an English Tory politician, and a supposedly non-political military man all managed to co-ordinate their messages.
Still, no pre-negotiation, right?
I think as we approach the 100th page everyone should just agree to disagree, or atleast agree that there are benefits of independence and there are benefits of union. Ultimately the choice is down to personal instinct.
It's complete pish - unless your voting is driven by instinct.
bencooper - MemberThis week's scare story
They are only scarey stories because Yes are being so tight lipped about how they would actually achieve anything.
I was meaning it showed up your right wing bias quite clearly! 😆teamhurtmore - Member
teamhurtmore - Member
and here we have thm's bias laid bare for all to see. not that it was ever in doubt mind!
Unbiased with the inputs (facts), biased on the conclusion. Never denied that my conclusion (bias) is that the union is better for both Scotland and the rUK. It's great that yS agree too.Still with such a powerful coalition there, we can rest assured that some honest reasons for a new independent states will arrive before the vote (unlike Godot and duck's answers).
Re UKIP and the SNP. It's not the substance (or obvious lack of it) it's the style and methods employed and the fact that other politicians are struggling to deal with it. Joe Public enjoys popping happy pills. Cold turkey is less fun though.
seosamh77 - Member😆
That nervous laugh is getting painfully obvious old boy. 😉
99% of people do, you can only know so many "facts".konabunny - MemberIt's complete pish - unless your voting is driven by instinct.
I shall switch!sbob - Member
That nervous laugh is getting painfully obvious old boy.
I was meaning it showed up your right wing bias quite clearly!
Libertarian, not RW please! Hence, generally supportive of devolved power and local representation. Difference is, I prefer to see it done properly and honestly.
Note that people of different political persuasions are united in rejecting yS BS in here and in the real world.
Interestingly I think it is actually an "almost" clear split up here in scotland. It tends to be more to the left in favour of independence, not entirely obviously as the SNP is a mix of left and right, but it's possibly the biggest coalition of leftists that scotland has seen in a long time.teamhurtmore - Member
I was meaning it showed up your right wing bias quite clearly!
Libertarian, not RW please! Hence, generally supportive of devolved power and local representation. Difference is, I prefer to see it done properly and honestly.Note that people of different political persuasions are united in rejecting yS BS in here and in the real world.
Is Johann Lamont and (her party) merely an outlier?
Thm it isn't really her party, decisions are made in London and then passed on to Johann Lamont. Labour is in a complete shambles about its "devo max" proposal. Lots of labour voters support Yes
[url= http://www.referendum.ed.ac.uk/labours-devolution-proposals-more-questions-than-answers/ ]Labour devo max reviewed[/url]
[url= http://www.labourforindy.com ]labourforindy[/url]
[url= http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-labour-official-backing-yes-1-3376042#.U0wvxVY46fM.twitter ]the Scotsman labour official backs yes[/url]
What's an outlier?teamhurtmore - Member
Is Johann Lamont and (her party) merely an outlier?
Lamont is clearly just a puppet though, that much is blatantly obvious.
we are still awaiting a rationale case for full independence
Heys its gone all TJ 😕
Not sure how many more pages of this or documents you want...perhaps its just your bias that makes you think there is nothing rationale there 💡
just out of interest why is it irrational to want a government you vote for /not want a govt you dont vote for...its seems a fairly universal aspiration for democracy...you know what the word means I assume
Why is this argument "weak"?
I awaits some formidable "rationale" as to why the will of the people should be ignored It's not like you will stick your head in the sand and pretend the question has not been asked as you have no answer. Nor will you just continue to repeat the lie that its irrational...your not emotive like AS on this are you...oh the irony.
Unbiased with the inputs (facts), biased on the conclusion.
Yes I am biased but the facts still support me ...who does not think this ?
Libertarian, not RW please!
Farage says that as well iirc
You are probably alone in thinking you are not right wing
konabunny - Member
It's complete pish - unless your voting is driven by instinct.
Which side are you attacking here ? Applies to both as does much of this guff passing as debate.
Still no idea why everyone is struggling to see they are largely making OTT claims for their positions and most have lost all sense of perspective.
just out of interest why is it irrational to want a government you vote for /not want a govt you dont vote for...its seems a fairly universal aspiration for democracy...you know what the word means I assumeWhy is this argument "weak"?
It isn't irrational or weak.
It is lonely though.
Not sure what you mean by lonely tbh?
Sorry, isolated, as in it is the only decent argument that has been put forward.
That is enough for many it seems, as Ben and Sam have personally stated.
just out of interest why is it irrational to want a government you vote for /not want a govt you don't vote for...its seems a fairly universal aspiration for democracy
It isn't - however it is irrational to demand independence from the rUK on the one hand, yet at the same time demand that they retain responsibility for setting your financial policies, underwrite your financial industry, subsidise your renewable energy industry - and all the while campaign strongly for the EU to direct your laws laws, foreign and domestic policies, and NATO to set your defence policy.
Its not independence, its moving into the granny flat!
and all the while campaign strongly for the EU to direct your laws
They can campaign all they like, if they get independence they'll leave the EU.
This is where you argument falls down, you seem to see a lot of demands, they aren't demands, some are what we'll be entitled to, some are requests to work together, like a currency union.ninfan - Member
yet at the same time demand
If follow a yes vote, rUK doesn't want to work together, well need to look at different options(which clearly exist).
seosamh77 - Membersome are requests to work together, like a currency union
[IMG] 
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😆
seosamh77 - MemberIf follow a yes vote, rUK doesn't want to work together, well need to look at different options(which clearly exist).
Ooh, ooh, have you spotted the mythical Plan B? 😯
hahaha
I explained this to youse about 20 pages ago, they are there in the white paper. you may not see merit in them, but they do exist.sbob - Member
seosamh77 - Member
If follow a yes vote, rUK doesn't want to work together, well need to look at different options(which clearly exist).Ooh, ooh, have you spotted the mythical Plan B?
they aren't demands, some are what we'll be entitled to, some are requests to work together
Like when my daughter jumps up and down saying she won't have her bath until after I've given her pudding, she's 'requesting that we work together' 😆
I also listened to Salmond's speech the other day, which promised the Earth with no explanation of how he will achieve it.
WRT the speech, is Faslane just a negotiating position, in your opinion?
I genuinely do love this type of disrespect, as that's all it is, from the no camp.ninfan - Member
they aren't demands, some are what we'll be entitled to, some are requests to work together
Like when my daughter jumps up and down saying she won't have her bath until after I've given her pudding, she's 'requesting that we work together'
Does your campaign the world of good! 😆
sbob - Member
I also listened to Salmond's speech the other day, which promised the Earth with no explanation of how he will achieve it.WRT the speech, is Faslane just a negotiating position, in your opinion?
Personally I would use it yes(I just don't want to pay for it, but understand that they exist and are of little threat to anyone), but after his affirmation of it in that speech, no I don't think it can be for the SNP. His party would revolt against him, never mind the people.
I genuinely do love this type of disrespect, as that's all it is, from the no camp.
Ah, passive aggressive assumption of the indignant and offended victim role when trapped... You sure you don't write speeches for the SNP?
My point being, that's how we view currency union south of the border.
That's entirely up to you. It's not make or break from me. Far from it. I'd only want to use the pound short term anyhow.sbob - Member
My point being, that's how we view currency union south of the border.
What's your points tally at anyhow, you beat your hi score yet?ninfan - Member
I genuinely do love this type of disrespect, as that's all it is, from the no camp.
Ah, passive aggressive assumption of the indignant and offended victim role when trapped... You sure you don't write speeches for the SNP?