[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

That is indeed a problem with the Edinburgh Agreement. But can you really see Westminster refusing independence if the referendum votes Yes? The UK would become an international outcast if it tried to pull that kind of thing.

So Sir BS gets everything he asks for and concedes nothing in the independence negotiations, because the UK has to give him independence? I'm not sure why the Edinburgh Agreement not allowing him that means there is a problem with it.

Don't worry though, it's probably just a negotiating position.

An unnamed senior colleague ......

That carries some weight doesn't it ?

The reality is that if the referendum clearly shows a majority supporting independence and all legal requirements are fulfilled then there is no possibility that Scotland will be denied independence.

Any suggestion to the contrary is simply to give Alex Salmond the opportunity to have a little rant and dismiss the comments as "breathtaking, irresponsible and contemptuous of the democratic process in Scotland", and generally whip up anti-English sentiments.

It also effectively plays down the consequences of voting yes by suggesting that voting yes doesn't necessarily mean independence, it does, at least it means Scotland separating from the rest of the UK - the consequences are grave.

generally whip up anti-English sentiments

When has he done this? I'm not a big fan of Alex Salmond, but I've never heard him be anti-English. Anti-[i]Westminster[/i], certainly, but that's a totally different thing.

Of course it's not, it's exactly the same thing. I specifically chose not to say 'Anti-Westminster sentiments' because it would have meant agreeing with his little game. It's like the BNP claiming they're not racist because they dislike Muslims. To attack Westminster is to attack English politicians.

Oho, so the SNP is like the BNP now? 😀

Again, there's this obsession with independence being anti-English - it really isn't. I know quite a few English-born people who are voting Yes.

I said the SNP is like the BNP, did I ?

OK I did. It's exactly what I said. I'm not going to argue.

So how many points does that score you ? Have you "won" yet ?

An btw when you tell me that you know quite a few anti-English bigots who are voting No, it will provide a rather more convincing argument that anti-English sentiments have no bearing on how people will vote in the referendum.

ernie_lynch - Member

To attack Westminster is to attack English politicians.

And Welsh ones, and Northern Irish ones, even Scottish ones. So ridiculous to pass it off as "anti-english"

And Welsh ones, and Northern Irish ones, even Scottish ones.

Er yes. And that includes SNP politicians ffs. Do you think Salmond is aiming his criticism at SNP politicians ? 🙄

That's exactly the point - it's not Westminster that's being attacked, it's English politicians in Westminster that's being attacked.

I love the irony in Ernie continually citing anti English sentiment when he loves to chuck in the anti Scottish stereotypes every so often. Doesn't matter how many times people point on this thread to voting behavior etc...

I don't just believe that Scots have different values to the rest of the UK - it's an electoral fact. How many Tory MPs are there in Scotland? How many UKIP councillors?

You missed the above (not for the first time)

.....round and round and round and round and around we go.......

How about [url= http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/overseas-sales-scotlands-oil-gas-3497896 ]oil[/url]

If you want an example of what triggers anti-Westminster sentiment, take a look at the latest utterances of Baroness Jay. She is not the first member of the House of Lords to raise this.

Those parasites are not elected. It ain't democracy.

duckman - Member
Doesn't matter how many times people point on this thread to voting behavior etc...

Would hate to mention misrepresentation yet again, but I think you will find that Ernie refers to voting behaviour at least as much and probably more than any other poster on this thread. He regularly mentions current voting expectations as measured by polls often to refute some of the latest BS.

As for missing points and facts, he is merely pointing out the detail again. Ok, we appreciate that facts and details are not welcome from yS but that should not mean that they are erased from the debate.

I love the irony in Ernie continually citing anti English sentiment when he loves to chuck in the anti Scottish stereotypes every so often.

And you obviously love making stuff up. I am very much "pro-Scottish", as I am indeed "pro-British". Nothing I ever say can be described as anti-Scottish other than when said in jest.

I recognise that anti-English sentiments exist in Scotland. And that where they exist they very much serve the purposes of the pro-independence movement. You don't have to be anti-English to be pro-independence but you do have to be pro-independence if you are anti-English.

Unless of course you know people who are anti-English but also anti-independence ..... do you ?

And before we get into the realms of fantasy with suggestions that anti-English sentiments don't exist and therefore cannot possibly play a part in people's decision to vote yes :

http://www.scotsman.com/anti-english-bullying-1-1810591

BTW duckman you play a blinding impersonation of a grumpy Scotsman with no sense of humour, in fact it's so good I'm assuming it must be real ? 🙂

[img] [/img]

Unless of course you know people who are anti-English but also anti-independence ..... do you ?

I refer you to the Orange Order discussion above. It is possible to be both anti-English and anti-independence.

That's exactly the point - it's not Westminster that's being attacked, it's English politicians in Westminster that's being attacked

It really isn't. Alastair Darling isn't English, Gordon Brown isn't English. Danny Alexander and Alistair Carmichael aren't English. It's the system that we don't like, not where particular MPs happen to have been born.

Sorry to not quote your post in its usual hysterical entirety,but with regards to ernie,no he doesnt. Backed by his regular stereotype laden assertations that Nat's are anti English.

Love your work thm,you post what nonsense you like on here,if anybody call you to task on it( see multiple contributors to this thread) quoting you,then they are misrepresenting you. Mind you, bearing in mind you are a grown man who spends his spare time making up names for politicians you don't like, as pointed out BY ernie.

BTW I believe that DO is the Deceitful One. Silly name calling appears to be is very fashionable on here.

I don't expect much more from you.Or does pointing out the above misrepresent you in some way?

There is a desperation amongst the Unionists to whip up distate for this "anti-English" feeling, but it is no more the case than the Orange Order representing the Unionists.

And I'm still puzzled as to why it was ok and workable to give Ireland independence, and ditto every other independent Commonwealth country, and yet we are held up as destined to fail.

Free Yorkshire I say but do it on the cheap.

It's a bit like when any criticism of the actions of the Israeli state is denounced as anti-Semitic.

Do I get a Godwin award?

epicyclo - Member

There is a desperation amongst the Unionists to whip up distate for this "anti-English" feeling, but it is no more the case than the Orange Order representing the Unionists.

I'm not entirely sure what that means but I do know that according to you the Orange Order are not truly Scottish :

epicyclo - Member

A bunch of archaic sectarian hate peddlers with roots in NI, not truly Scottish IMO

There is a desperation amongst the Unionists to whip up distate for this "anti-English" feeling

I seem to remember it was you who ludicrously brought up the clearances (largely bugger all to do with the English) as a reason for voting for independence, so misguided anti-Englishness does exist.

Backed by his regular stereotype laden assertations that Nat's are anti English.

You need to re-read my comment :

[i]I recognise that anti-English sentiments exist in Scotland. And that where they exist they very much serve the purposes of the pro-independence movement. [b]You don't have to be anti-English to be pro-independence[/b] but you do have to be pro-independence if you are anti-English.[/i]

It doesn't matter how much you bang on about it duckman you are not going to bully me into accepting that anti-English sentiments play no part at all in support for the the Yes camp. So save yourself the bother - I expect this thread to carry on at least until September and I will undoubtedly repeat the claim on multiple occasions before then.

Trying to bully you? I don't think so. For somebody who has a deserved reputation for liking to dish it out,you are suprisingly sensitive.( when it suits)

Once again prejudice/bigotry exists everywhere. Just because I express support for independence does not mean I am anti - English. Just because someone expresses support for the union does not mean that they are not anti English.

Fantastic song geda.I am off to listen to it now.

There is a desperation amongst the Unionists to whip up distate for this "anti-English" feeling,

I seem to remember it was you who ludicrously brought up the clearances (largely bugger all to do with the English) as a reason for voting for independence, so misguided anti-Englishness does exist.

you are not going to bully me into accepting that anti-English sentiments play no part at all in support for the the Yes camp

So yes some voters hate the english and some voters hate the scottish. Neither is indicative of the whole.

Only one side seems to wish to claim they are and that they frame the whole debate whilst calling the other liars
The majority of the people who wish to make this claim are English folk resident in England who support the Union. Make of that what you will.

I have decided this one is better..

duckman - Member
Love your work thm,

Here to please ducks.

then they are misrepresenting you.....and others (my addition)

Generally true, especially in your case! Just read a few pages back.

Ben - the fact that BT is scared to field English people in the whole debate reflects just how much anti-English sentiment is a key driver. Your post sums it up perfectly. Add Tory to English and you have the full house.

Great addition to the joke file - keeping the pound is indicative of being pro-rUK. A better misrepresentation of the economic reality of currency unions would be harder to find. Still par for the course!

Interesting article on the (distorted) state of Scottish media in the FT:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/45a5bcc6-d162-11e3-bdbb-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz30qeglqWv

Now what was it again you said when a newspaper said something you did not like/ came out in support of the Yes campaign. I would quote it back to you but i dont want to distort your views

So people quoting your words a are misrepresenting you- when exactly did you become irrational?

What exactly would you say you are doing to AS and his views then? Oh the irony/lack of self awareness

Your a teacher at least try and maintain some facade of impartiality/rationality

the fact that BT is scared to field English people in the whole debate reflects just how much anti-English sentiment is a key driver.

Perhaps it is because they know you will call the scots racists and therefore loose them votes ?

Forget City winning the league

Manchester could be the real economic winner if Scotland votes for independence.

According to:

http://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2014/may/06/manchester-benefit-scottish-independence-localism

fact that BT is scared to field English people in the whole debate reflects just how much anti-English sentiment is a key driver.

Yes lots thanks - without much thought one can point to as diverse a group of folk illustrating this as Jim Sillers, George Galloway and Andrew Marr. And that is just for starters. Attitude studies could be the "amuse bouche" and then we could get on to the main course.....but the indigestion would be too much I fear.

grum - Member
I seem to remember it was you who ludicrously brought up the clearances (largely bugger all to do with the English) as a reason for voting for independence, so misguided anti-Englishness does exist.

It's everything to do with the need for independence because it should be treated as a lesson learned.

The Clearances were possible because the population had no franchise, and the sources of power were remote from the people of the Highlands.

If you have a privileged elite who are not accountable, you get abuses like the Clearances. Nothing to do with where they were born, but simply because they can treat the powerless like shit, they do.

It's not about the blame game, but what can be learned from history, and not letting that sort of thing happen again.

And the best (but not infallible way) to ensure that, is to have a democratic process with no room for unelected elites.

That Gurdian article basically says
1. Localism in local govt will affect contracts
2. Scotland must be worse affected - though it accepts it has no figures - it is a reasonable presumption that it buys much more from Scotland than Scotland buys from it. [ to quote it]
3. therefore companies should/could relocate to leeds or Manchester

I imagine the budget for leeds/Yorkshire and Manchester are less than the budget for Scotland [ If THM can forgive the anti English rhetoric there] but they did not bog us down in details like that whilst making the economic case for countries leaving

It was somewhat thin on details there THM as a reference piece
You would be tearing it to shreds were it a Ben link and rightly so
There may be some implications to localism
Surely a canny firm will have an English and Scottish division to exploit both. It is what i would do.

I liked it being pro London

The logical beneficiaries would be Leeds or Manchester. Both have good workforces and housing; office and industrial buildings are relatively cheap. Greater Manchester could win out because of its excellent rail link to London, its tram system and proximity to the West Midlands. Its five universities will also help drive its economy.

EDIT: Actually THM wont these changes [Localism] happen irrespective of the vote outcome , it is meaningless basically

If you have a privileged elite who are not accountable, you get abuses like the Clearances. Nothing to do with where they were born, but simply because they can treat the powerless like shit, they do.

konabunny - Member
What does that have to do with independence? There won't be a revolution - there's no radical realignment of power, wealth and influence - just a shuffling of the elites.

We'll see come September.

THM Do you have any links? I found plenty of criticism of the SNP from Sillars and Galloway but nothing about anti english sentiment driving the Yes campaign. George did say that Eck is "an opportunist"...George Galloway should certainly be able to recognise a chancer when he sees one.
According to a Guardian review Andrew Marr did speak about historical anti English sentiment when the SNP was founded and in modern day Scotland. It didnt mention that the SNP has changed completely since then.

Junkyard - lazarus

ernie being bullied LOL

That's exactly what I thought, which why I suggested that duckman stops wasting his time. I will continue to claim, if I want to, that the Yes campaign exploits, in the subtlest of ways of course - nothing too crude, the anti-english feelings which clearly exist, to their advantage. Duckman obviously doesn't like me doing that which is a shame as it's my opinion and I'm going to express anyway 🙂

Manchester winning eh?

Keep up lads, that YES vote won't happen by itself! 😀

muddydwarf lol
also has the irritating nature of pro-Yes Scots people living in the South of England been done?

When Yorkshire gains it's freedom from Scotland and the UK we'll have Leeds as the financial capital and York as the true ceremonial.
I'd sooner not mirror the narrow minded bigotry and petty nationalism that has been shown on this thread so far but it must be made very clear. Under no circumstances will there be a currency union with Lancashire unless they agree to full political union and rename themselves the "More West Riding of Yorkshire".

[quote=epicyclo ]We'll see come September.

Is that an official yS slogan?

[quote=ernie_lynch ]Nothing I ever say can be described as anti-Scottish other than when said in jest.

The Edinburgh defence? (well it had to be done!) 😆

Careful now mt or some of those Lancastrians might take a per centage of the population sized bite out of your Wensleydale.
What about Earby?
[url= http://www.lancashirelife.co.uk/out-about/places/the_border_town_of_earby_is_in_the_front_line_of_the_boundary_battle_between_lancashire_and_yorkshire_1_2865178 ]border dispute[/url]

As long as Yorkshire finally acknowledges its backward child & takes full & final responsibility for Todmorden they can have independence - we'll even throw in Bacup!

Nothing I ever say can be described as anti-Scottish other than when said in jest

Nowt wrong with Bacup well apart from Lancashire. Todmorden is a typical Yorkshire town as far as I'm concerned. So pleased we've moved onto the real quest for freedom in the fantastic land that is the British isles. Even Scotland.

Remember cry freedom cry Yorkshire and remember Swaledale is where it's at, god love it.

duckman - did you not realise it proves he's not anti-Scottish though?

May I refer to aracer's post on the Edinburgh defence?

I would much rather that instead of referring to aracer's post you actually referred to my posts and provided some evidence of "anti-Scottish" sentiments by me, if that's what you're accusing me of. It's hard to tell. Either copy and paste or direct links whichever you fancy - makes no odds to me.

And btw aracer's post on the Edinburgh defence aimed at me was said in jest, as the laughing emoticon which accompanied it heavily suggested. I thought I should point that out with you being a grumpy Scotsman lacking a sense of humour 🙂

[img] ?v=4fedc269[/img]

Yorkshire is a dump, although I admit that Lancashire is even worse.

Brilliant , I salute you and I genuinely laughed out loud at that one.

muddydwarf - Member

As long as Yorkshire finally acknowledges its backward child & takes full & final responsibility for Todmorden they can have independence - we'll even throw in Bacup!

the Lancashire flag flying over Todmorden Cricket Club always makes me smile, that said it is part of The County Palatine 😉

oh god, don't bring up the Middle East now...

I have heard a couple of people on radio phone in's recently backtrack when forgetting to replace English with Westminster. One robustly argumentitive, and well spoken lady backing independence saying, "We don't want the Engli.... sorry Westminster to get our oil money!" Westminster is used as code to play on a portion of the populaces predjustices. I don't look on SNP like the BNP, however I reckon they are more like UKIP. I reckon plenty of nationalists think No voting Scots are somehow less Scottish, as if a Yes vote should really count double.
My prediction of a Putin like style of leadership but not policy may have been ridiculed at the time, however I can see the admiration our potential first prime minister has for the man will result in some of Putin's style rubbing off.
The rise of UKIP keeps being cited as representing the rUK as somehow racially or culturally intolerant. That is complete bo***cks. Scotlands relatively pathetic history of immigration is certainly no cause for claiming the moral high ground.

I have heard a couple of people on radio phone in's recently

I see what you did wrong there 😀

athgray - Member
...My prediction of a Putin like style of leadership but not policy may have been ridiculed at the time, however I can see the admiration our potential first prime minister has for the man will result in some of Putin's style rubbing off...

Blast it, sprung!

Even as you speak, at a remote location in the Highlands, ferocious kilted Pandas are being trained to race across rivers with tubby riders on their backs.

athgray - Member

Scotlands relatively pathetic history of immigration is certainly no cause for claiming the moral high ground.

Scottish immigration's generally lower than England's. Is it because we're all racists? Or is it because nobody's heard of Scotland, it's harder to get to, and it never stops raining? You decide.

Ironically I'm in the immigration business and it's mental UKBA racist-pleasing policy that gives us the most trouble.

That must be it......no one's heard of Scotland.

And it's harder to get to.

Funny enough I thought Westminster was being used as a code for an ineffective and unfair system of government, leading us to elect administrations which have a significant problem with corruption and arequite divorced from the reality of life for many people throughout the UK, administrations which are really working hand in glove with and for a relatively small economic elite.

Ah, so interchangeable with Holyrood then.

Bencooper: if you don't know what the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is then JFGI and consider your claim that Scottish orange lodges aren't really Scottish!

Scotlands relatively pathetic history of immigration is certainly no cause for claiming the moral high ground.

Tut tut piemonster, tha's never really been to Yorkshire or tha'd not be getting t insults. Unless you wer brought up Wombwell. Mind even that dump looks attractive t most places outside Yorkshire.

Now you are making things up Ernie,I said you liked to throw in anti Scottish stereotypes every so often. Your claim that you didn't have to be anti English to be pro independence came yesterday? A couple of days after;

and all the saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages

BTW I believe that DO is the Deceitful One. Silly name calling appears to be is very fashionable on here

Tut tut piemonster, tha's never really been to Yorkshire or tha'd not be getting t insults. Unless you wer brought up Wombwell. Mind even that dump looks attractive t most places outside Yorkshire.

You can blame Sheffield for my attitude. Particularly Sharrow.

/fighting talk
Your beers rubbish too.
/end fighting talk

*insert appropriate smiley face here*

Na then Pie lad get the self over t Bradfield. A few pints o Farmers Blonde then we can do a bit of fisticuffs over the merits of Yorkshire beer. Scotland should be forced to be independent on the grounds that have Sweet Heart Stout. The south of Englandshire should ang it's head in shame for the gnats piss they serve.

A free Yorkshire would have free beer (brewed int county) on all holidays, whoevers holiday it is.

Now you are making things up Ernie,I said you liked to throw in anti Scottish stereotypes every so often. Your claim that you didn't have to be anti English to be pro independence came yesterday? A couple of days after;

"and all the saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages"

That's hardly stereotyping the Scots ffs !

The saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages, number somewhere in the region of half a dozen, if that. So it is perfectly obvious that they don't represent the majority of Scots on STW let alone Scots in Scotland, if they even live in Scotland.

I've got a Scottish mate that I ride with on a weekly basis when he's home from his oil rig, as he is at the moment in fact, and it's hard to imagine a less saltire-waving mel gibson wannabe. I have no reason to believe that he is untypical, and judging from my experience he isn't - far from it.

which was apparently a joke ( even although nobody else got it)

Who said it was a joke ? I certainly didn't. And I wouldn't expect saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes, on whose behalf you presumably speak, to find if funny.

Is that the best evidence you could come up with for my "anti-Scottish" sentiments ? How disappointing for you.

🙂

Edit, can't be bothered.

Ditto since you've edited.

Both your mothers.

ernie_lynch - Member
...The saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages, number somewhere in the region of half a dozen,..

[img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gi f" target="_blank">http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gi f"/> [/img]

The saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages, number somewhere in the region of half a dozen, if that. So it is perfectly obvious that they don't represent the majority of Scots on STW let alone Scots in Scotland, if they even live in Scotland.

There's a few of us living in Scotland who've contributed a lot to this thread and (apart from Ben ;P ) I wouldn't call any of us "saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes", and tbh find the accusation a little offensive. But that was your intent, so well done.

The thread that asked can you vote and which way you will you vote showed the Yes side winning, though not by much. So I'd guess that the lack of activity in this thread from the other forumites is more to do with the fact that it's nearly 120 pages long and is still going around in circles.

My prediction of a Putin like style of leadership but not policy may have been ridiculed at the time, however I can see the admiration our potential first prime minister has for the man will result in some of Putin's style rubbing off.

Give over man its beyond project fear and into fruit loopery though they were most unwise comments by AS- still not his first as I am sure THM can attest

You obviously haven't been following the thread in great detail whatnobeer as if you had you would understand that the saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes comment was aimed at those who support a separate Scotland being a full NATO member and yet refuse to explain the desirability of NATO membership (the issue being discussed was nuclear weapons).

My question was a perfectly fair question specially in light of the fact that for 30 years it was official SNP policy for an independent Scotland not to be in NATO. So what's happened in the last 30 years that caused the SNP to change its policy towards NATO so dramatically ?

As far as I can see not much apart from the fact that NATO member states have in recent decades been involved in wars and military engagements in a way that previously they never had been. And I can see the possible appeal this might have to saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes.

The good news is that you were only "a little" offended by my little dig 🙂

And it's apparently the only example of my "anti-Scottish" sentiments.

Jebus, I thought this thread was ridiculous 20 pages ago, but youse have taken it to a new level! 😆 Are youse not boring yourselves?

There's almost another 6 months to go seosam. I expect the debate to start getting a little heated as we approach the date of the referendum 🙂

ernie_lynch - Member
...So what's happened in the last 30 years that caused the SNP to change its policy towards NATO so dramatically ?...

Maybe they do something radical - like listen to what their supporters are saying?