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To be fair ernie, an independent Scotland also won't have the pound.
I thought you were arguing it would do exactly the same thing which is what i challenged. Now you are adding to the list of things it will do differently despite arguing it will be
doing exactly the same thing
Thanks for the help defeating your argument, you are a true gent 😉
konabunny - MemberIsn't now the time for radical ideas about demilitarisation, renationalisation or stripping down the state, slashing state expenditure or providing minimum citizens incomes, environmental sustainability? What's the point of recreating the UK state on a smaller scale? At present, the changes brought about by Scottish independence are lining up to be less transformative than New Labour's election in 1997!
Well, we could start making great plans about all the things we want to do after we win. Or, we could concentrate on actually winning. Daydreams are great but they're worthless if we remain in the UK and get yet another tory government we didn't vote for who'll immediately set about doing exactly the opposite. Or the ghost of Labour who've forgotten who they are and so just copy the tories but stay 1 degree leftwards.
There will be plenty of time post independence for change, and that's the only time it can happen. There'll be no time for it post a no vote. Priorities seem obvious. Post independence, we should inevitably see a different conversation as the first election will be mainly contested between 2 left/centreleft parties so that'll almost happen by itself.
Personally, I do feel there's a lack of vision, a lot of the effort of the Yes campaign is about making independence less scary, which inevitably means talking down change in order to make it more palatable to the masses. Stability sells. It's a shame, but pragmatic- maybe it's too hard to sell great change in one go, you have to sell the apparatus for change first then make the changes later.
I'd love an idealogically led, optimistic, forward looking agenda for change but I think it'd be likely to lead to no change at all and no power to make it later. Groundwork first, we don't need to build Rome in a day.
Frankly though, for Scotland to be more socially progressive and fair than the UK, we don't need to change a lot- we can stand still, as long as we get off the sliding slope the UK's on. I hope we don't settle for that, we can do better, but even that's a start.
According to you, maybe more complex reasons would confuse us?
To be fair they probably would. And apparently they have. Stick to saltire-waving and shouting freedom, which seems a much more sensible ploy.
🙂
Out of the two last posts before this Ernie,one looks measured and thoughtful,one doesn't. Yours isn't the former,which strangely enough comes from somebody waving a saltire and shouting freedom.
My post wasn't designed to be "measured and thoughtful" duckman. It was in response to you digging out a little quip which I made yesterday.
Konabunny Every journey starts with the first step, if we vote yes we can choose our own destination.
gordimhor - Member
Konabunny Every journey starts with the first step
But much better if it is a forward one and with the correct map and compass in hand.
But much better if it is a forward one and with the correct map and compass in hand.
Both of which are best achieved by independence.ie with control of all the policy levers
Thats a great idea.... Likewise the money gained from Scottish Oil revenues shouldn't be looked at as a UK resource... The money from them should be treated as a loan which should be repaid if independence is gained..
I think this has been done to death, it's the UK's oil. If Scotland leaves the UK it may or may not take future mineral rights with it. I personally believe the UK would grant Scotland a portion of the future rights in relation to the size of its population in return for Scotland's pro rated portion of the national debt. But like most things to do with independence nothing's actually been worked out yet. The SNP are completely unprepared for independence in terms of planning and policy as their only policy focus is becoming independent.
gordimhor
.ie with control of all the policy levers
I love your SOH. Better crack that duck's version earlier! Si solum....
Jambalaya - the last point is spot on - Incredible really after all this time.
Every journey starts with the first step
And it is the emptiness inside which gives the columns of a temple their purpose.
[img] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CudGbXbfHUM/SUktprh_hNI/AAAAAAAAAxs/oCqiCq4X5Io/s400/master_po [/img]
As you say Jambalaya,unbelievable we are still doing this after all this time,right up there with the free the Shetlands thread that totalshell starts each year.Still if it helps with the clear separation anxiety that manifests itself in you and Ernie's posts and the worry he may have to drink wine from a supermarket ( NOT booths either) when he retires here that is behind THM's opposition,then fire away.
You love it really ducks - it becomes addictive after a while!! 😉
You know what,after 4000 posts are either side going to change each others rather entrenched views?
jambalaya - MemberI think this has been done to death, it's the UK's oil.
It is today. And post independence, it won't be. The reason there's so little discussion about it is because it's one of the few things that's not really open to any doubt, only the most bonkers of No people claim otherwise.
Oh, hi!
are either side going to change each others rather entrenched views?
Yes, possibly. A few years ago, I was open to the idea of independence. But with the very interesting political debate (if dispiriting from an Economics perspective):
You (ie yS) have convinced me (as someone who is in favour of devolved power in principle and anti-big government) that the case for independence is remarkably shallow and frankly deceitful in many important respects
You have convinced me that there are clear differences between the Euro-area and the UK in terms of their suitability as optimum currency areas - it does not make sense for the Euro-area but does for the UK (for both sides) - and the DO knows this clearly
That (following on from the above) the DO is little more than a chancer and poorly equipped for the role he occupies. We all deserve better.
Apart from that, little has changed!
[p.s. despite all the wind and sails BS, I would still recommend McCrones book to anyone interested in this whole debate]
I personally believe the UK would grant Scotland a portion of the future rights in relation to the size of its population in return for Scotland's pro rated portion of the national debt.
We've done this before, and it's total bollocks. Is the UK entitled to a share of Canada's shale oil reserves? Australia's uranium? South Africa's gold and diamonds? All those are countries that left the UK (or the British Empire as it was) and took all their natural resources with them.
Nothing like what you've suggested has ever happened before, ever. And think about it - what happens if populations change? What if the oil reserve estimates change?
It's total nonsense, sorry.
On a different subject, the BBC has been promoting the "grassroots" Vote No Borders campaign extensively. It's had more media coverage in the past few days than all the Yes campaigns have had put together, ever.
Which is suspicious.
What's more suspicious is that Vote No Borders registered with Companies House only on the 18th of March this year - and registered with the Electoral Commission the day after. It didn't even have a website for another month and a half*.
But that's not all the suspicious stuff - it's registered address is in London, at the same address as a communications consultancy - and the registered directors are the same. It's also headed by a Tory millionaire, who wrote the austerity plan for the Tories back in 2009.
It's all very odd.
*speaking of the website, the person who registered the website used to work for the same consultancy - and now works for the Bank of England.
Goniads take on the No Borders
Oh yeah, that folk-pop group - also registered as a company in London, around the same date.
Because what group of young, eager musicians doesn't make sure they're registered with Companies House before releasing their first song?
They made one mistake, though - they remembered to register www.votenoborders.co.uk but not www.votenoborders.com 😀
@bencooper (and @Northwind) - I know we've discussed this before and we don't agree. Scotland is potentially leaving the UK. The licences to extract the oil and the associated future revenue streams where granted by the UK for the benefit of the UK. It is not automatic that Scotland would be granted the same mineral rights as was Canada for example in terms of new reserves yet to be licenced. Trying to rely on a precedent set with the old Empire, there is no such precident.
I guess one real spanner in the works is that Scotland could be trying to negotiate the details of its independence in 2015 with UKIP at the table !
jambalaya - Member
...I guess one real spanner in the works is that Scotland could be trying to negotiate the details of its independence in 2015 with UKIP at the table !
What's the problem? Negotiating with fellow independence seekers? 🙂
To be fair, the idea of UKIP in power is exactly as realistic as the idea that Scotland would be denied access to its own mineral wealth.
[quote=duckman ]You know what,after 4000 posts are either side going to change each others rather entrenched views?
Why, is that your aim when posting on this thread? 😯
Tomorrows Herald
[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/sunday-herald-is-first-paper-to-back-scottish-independence.1399149163 ]Sunday Herald backs independence[/url]
That's news?
First time they've come out and said it.
I wonder when the BBC will announce their support for the No campaign?
Sunday Herald is first paper to back Scottish independence
In other words the only one. Good for them - they've identified an unexploited niche in the market, that should boost their sales.
Oh look at what they suggest : [i]"To read the Sunday Herald editorial in full, buy tomorrow's print edition or come back to HeraldScotland from early on Sunday".[/i] That sounds like a good idea.
Whichever way Scotland votes in September I think we can safely assume the Sunday Herald is on a winner.
bencooper - MemberI wonder when the BBC will announce their support for the No campaign?
None of the rest of the press need to annouce it, they might as well have it tattooed on their faces.
I wonder when the BBC will announce their support for the No campaign?
October 15th 2012 wasn't it? 8)
October 15th 2012 wasn't it?
😀
Not a surprise with the Herald. But they'd do the yes campaign a favour by putting the referendum news section always the free access side of the paywall.
Uniformed men marching down the road, telling you how to vote - that's encouraging.
[img] 
:large[/img]
(Not my pic)
What are you insinuating ben? Howcome when the nationalists highjack the saltire and emblazon it with yes, this is somehow freedom of expression, however if someone displays a banner saying vote no, you are somehow being told how to vote. Quite frankly that is utter p**h.
Forgive my ignorance, but as an Englishman unused to certain Scottish traditions - why is there someone marching wearing what appears to be a Wermacht officers uniform?
* I am viewing this on my phone so small photos.
The brown shirts arrive tomorrow Ben - did the herald not report that ?
If you look closely some of them have KKK puppets on their shoulders too....
What are you insinuating ben? Howcome when the nationalists highjack the saltire and emblazon it with yes, this is somehow freedom of expression, however if someone displays a banner saying vote no, you are somehow being told how to vote. Quite frankly that is utter p**h.
I don't mind people having "Vote No" banners. I do mind when they march down the street in uniform to do it. It's not exactly a friendly, approachable image is it?
Forgive my ignorance, but as an Englishman unused to certain Scottish traditions - why is there someone marching wearing what appears to be a Wermacht officers uniform?
It is, I believe, an Orange Order march - a group for which the phrase "ignorant f***wits" could have been invented.
Port old DO - being bullied by Paddy Pantsdown and Pussy Riot now. He is collecting an impressive range of people who recognise BS at its best. Quite an achievement to unite such a variety of folk. A role at the EU or UN to follow....?
We had some scouts the other day Ben. All a bit spooky isn't it?
"It is, I believe, an Orange Order march - a group for which the phrase "ignorant f***wits" could have been invented."
https://mobile.twitter.com/GTFB1946
They seem like 'don't knows' to me. 😉
http://greengairsthistlefluteband.webs.com
http://archive.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=4268652569
Uniformed men marching down the road, telling you how to vote - that's encouraging.
Don't worry about them..... according to the Yes campaign Jesus Christ is telling you to vote Yes
[url= http://www.yesscotland.net/interest-groups/christians-independence ]Christians for Independence[/url]
I believe that God trumps the Orange Order.
I don't mind people having "Vote No" banners. I do mind when they march down the street in uniform to do it. It's not exactly a friendly, approachable image is it?
[img] 
[/img]
Okay, I give up - what does DO stand for?
(I know it's Alex Salmond, I just can't work out the acronym)
Is that Arnie McShortnegger ? ^^
Okay, I give up - what does DO stand for?
I'm afraid you don't have need-to-know clearance.
I don't really have want-to-know clearance either 😉
[img] [/img]
/p>
Technoviking says vote yes!
Fair enough, I will let you keep guessing (it's very obvious, what is the first word that springs to mind with our friend? ).
Thanks for the posts today though, they were a laugh. Prefer the more straight one of the crane on the other thread though, I had forgotten about your alter ego. That scared me too!
Was that on the Edinburgh march? There was a bloke doing the call-and-return thing:
"What do we want?"
"Independence!"
"When do we want it?"
"Now!"
I felt like shouting "in about 18 months, after a properly organised referendum!" But figured that wasn't quite in the spirit of the event 😀
I really need to get back to doing more of that silly stuff - life is too boring with work and family, that's why I have to come on here and argue with you 🙂
Ernie. I am supposed to feel guilty enough as it is for voting no. I don't need god against me as well.
ben, I think you don't mind. This is they way you want to portray no voters. If anything they probably help your cause, especially if it is an orange march. It appears as a way of linking voting no to fascism. Like puting a Hitler tache on Salmond. The sort of thing that nationalists say is nonsense and does not help the debate. Your photo adds very little.
Much safer!
Didn't you post all those photos of derelict buildings before?
Yes, I used to do lots of that kind of thing, haven't for ages...
teamhurtmore - Member
Didn't you post all those photos of derelict buildings before?
He's switched to pics of syncopated marching derelict minds... 🙂
Technoviking says vote yes!
😆
LIKES
Isn't that Ben? In all honesty if I looked that that I would spend as much time as possible with my top off. (Tats excepted)
Hey, I know Techno-viking! He's a very nice guy, very friendly!
Hey, I know Techno-viking! He's a very nice guy, very friendly!
Techno-Vikings always are.
It's those bloody Emo-Vikings I can't stand.
It is, I believe, an Orange Order march - a group for which the phrase "ignorant f***wits" could have been invented.
I don't know why you're being so snooty about one of the oldest community groups in Scotland. I thought you were in favour of authentic Scots having a stronger voice in their destiny.
Kona, dont forget that there is a strong totalitarian/suppress dissent element not far under the surface of many yS supporters. Just look at the leader.
The bloke in the hi viz jacket needs some help with colour co-ordination though. Quite an outfit!
I don't know why you're being so snooty about one of the oldest community groups in Scotland
Have you met any Orange Order people? There are fewer of them in Glasgow than there used to be, but it's the most bigoted, small-minded, ignorant organisation you could imagine. Most of them even have no idea what history they're "celebrating", it's just a way to attack Catholics.
bencooper - Member
Have you met any Orange Order people? There are fewer of them in Glasgow than there used to be, but it's the most bigoted, small-minded, ignorant organisation you could imagine. Most of them even have no idea what history they're "celebrating", it's just a way to attack Catholics.
A bunch of archaic sectarian hate peddlers with roots in NI, not truly Scottish IMO.
Have you met any [s]Orange Order[/s] yS people? There are fewer of them in Glasgow than there used to be, but it's the most bigoted, small-minded, ignorant organisation you could imagine [i][ok that's ridiculously harsh!!][/i]. Most of them even have no idea what [s]history[/s] independence they're "[s]celebrating[/s] advocating", it's just a way to attack [s]Catholics[/s] English Tories and their Labour, Lib-Dem sycophants.
HTH / FTFY 😉
Oh my aching sides.
dont forget that there is a strong totalitarian/suppress dissent element not far under the surface of many yS supporters. Just look at the leader.
Thank God you dont do the outlandish lies you accuse AS of - you have gone beyond tabloid now with your smears. You would be apoplectic with abbreviations if AS did this
How can you not see this?
HTH / FTFY
Not really 😉
It's not about you, honestly, it's about us.
bencooper - Member
It's not about you, honestly, it's about us.
And the English are accused of being arrogant and selfish? Ben, the implications of the vote extent well beyond "you" even if the DO stops making irresponsible threats. I appreciate that is often forgotten but that doesn't make it any less true.
Because AS is the only person making "irresponsible threats" Oh I forgot,better together is "pretty tame" ( love their latest no voter comparing the possibility of a yes vote to the partition of India) Oh;and it is about us,WE are making the decision not you. I am sure if the boot was on the other foot you and all the rest of the little Englanders would be really looking at any implications for Scotland.
What's the latest "irresponsible threat" then... Is it still the one about not letting EU fishing boats fish in our waters if we're not in the EU, on account of they'll have absolutely no right to and the only reason they can do it now is because we're EU members?
TBH it's hard to keep track of what's an "irresponsible threat" or not now, since that particular wolf gets cried everytime you state the bleedin obvious.
Northwind - Member
TBH it's hard to keep track of what's an "irresponsible threat" or not now
C'mon NW, it's a lot but not THAT many.
WE are making the decision not you.
Actually that's not strictly true. The UK Government agreed to give the Scottish Parliament specific powers to hold a referendum. But actual independence will require the approval of the UK government. Obviously it's not going to refuse it if the referendum clearly shows a majority supporting independence and all legal requirements are fulfilled. But unless Scotland declares UDI that's how it's going to be.
And the English are accused of being arrogant and selfish? Ben, the implications of the vote extent well beyond "you" even if the DO stops making irresponsible threats.
I still haven't worked out what DO stands for. Anyhow, if it's arrogant and selfish to want self-determination then fine, I'm arrogant and selfish.
The currency union thing wasn't an irresponsible threat? The EU block wasn't an arrogant threat? The border controls idea wasn't an arrogant threat?
The trouble is whatever the No side says is a sensible statement of fact comes across as a threat to the Yes side, and vice versa.
Have you met any Orange Order people?
I'm related to half of Fermanagh and East Kilbride, so yes, and they're loopy.
I just find it funny that you, as someone who believes the Scots have different values to the British and that those values will result in a better Scotland once independent, are faced with such cognitive dissonance when confronted with a bunch of Scots with such strong values. I think this might actually be the best possible demonstration of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
The currency union thing wasn't an irresponsible threat?
There isn't going to be currency union, that's a fact not a threat. As stated in the OP 117 pages ago. Although you choose not to believe it, or at least claim not to believe - I suspect that you probably do.
BTW I believe that DO is the Deceitful One. Silly name calling appears to be is very fashionable on here.
I don't just believe that Scots have different values to the rest of the UK - it's an electoral fact. How many Tory MPs are there in Scotland? How many UKIP councillors?
However Scotland has it's share of bigoted idiots too - the sectarian problem is a big one, and my worry is that no-one's really assessing it's impact on the referendum.
I'm not sure what the "No true Scotsman" fallacy is. I'm first-generation Scottish, with English-born father and partner. They're both voting Yes, by the way, as is my English-born father-in-law.
I'm related to half of Fermanagh and East Kilbride
There's some serious inbreeding going on there. No wonder they're all apparently a bit loopy.
There isn't going to be currency union, that's a fact not a threat. As stated in the OP 117 pages ago. Although you choose not to believe it, or at least claim not to believe - I suspect that you probably do.
Facts are things like "Edinburgh is North of London" - the currency union stance is a negotiating position.
the currency union stance is a negotiating position.
It isn't. It might be if both sides wanted to negotiate. But that isn't the situation.
[url= http://ww.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/yes-does-not-mean-yes.23438016 ]Coalition source says yes might not mean yes[/url].
[url= http://sundaypost.com/news-views/politics/yes-vote-no-guarantee-of-independence-1.223772 ]Baroness Jay Independence will not automatically follow yes vote[/url]
Obviously it's not going to refuse it if the referendum clearly shows a majority supporting independence and all legal requirements are fulfilled.
I hope you're right Ernie
DO is a far more accurate description than bullies, buffers and blusterers that the DO uses with gay abandon when pressed.
Oxford Economics will be the next one to get the three BS barrel - "taxes and borrowing costs will rise and spending will fall" - why won't people stay on script? That's not what it says in the BoD and that's gospel surely?
Edit, sorry that's as new news as the herald saying its pro-independence 😳
Your first link doesn't work gordimhor and I'm not sure of the point of the second one.
The referendum is to establish the wishes of the people of Scotland, a yes vote will not be a declaration of independence. Independence will be a process that follows, and has to be granted. Unless as I say the Scottish Parliament declares UDI. Which is obviously not going to happen.
So yeah, what's new ?
Edinburgh Evening News on the same story
SCOTLAND may not get independence even if the Yes campaign wins the referendum, it was claimed today.An unnamed senior colleague of Prime Minister David Cameron was quoted saying a Yes vote would not guarantee independence if negotiations between Edinburgh and London could not be completed satisfactorily, adding that the status quo would be “the default option”.
First Minister Alex Salmond dismissed the comments as breathtaking, irresponsible and contemptuous of the democratic process in Scotland.
The point of the second article is that Baroness Jay appears to be saying that the referendum result can be ignored or over ruled if the rUk government is not happy with any negotiations or that the date of independence couldbe delayed indefinitely.
Perhaps she is completely out of step with the rest of the House of Lords , I hope so.
You do realise that all they're doing there is explaining what it says in the Edinburgh Agreement, as I've already mentioned several times on this thread. Despite popular opinion otherwise, AS doesn't get everything he asks for in the independence negotiations even if you vote yes - independence only happens if an agreement can be reached which doesn't disadvantage rUK. Clearly Sir BS of Eck hasn't actually read the Edinburgh Agreement.