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This thread now needs a sticky at the top of each page listing out the various Acronyms and Abbreviations so that late joiners can get up to speed.
thm has to be the one to write it. 🙂
Largely true WNB, I am just unforgiving of any politician that spouts BS. In his case, I feel that one is doing far more than the others 😉 and with harmful consequences.
Apparently VisitScotland chiefs are being hauled over hot coals by MSP's keen to know why ticket sales for 'Bannockburn Live', an event organised to commemorate the 700th anniversary of the battle are a bit sluggish. Worries of financial difficulties, a reduction from 3 days to 2, expensive tickets, and a clash with a free event to mark Armed Forces Day nearby.
More importantly, will the newS cottish equivalent of the Royal Mail allow shocks to be posted without destoying them?
Apparently VisitScotland chiefs are being hauled over hot coals by MSP's keen to know why ticket sales for 'Bannockburn Live', an event organised to commemorate the 700th anniversary of the battle are a bit sluggish.
Interesting, but what's the relevance to a discussion about independence?
Tourism income.
So one event isn't doing as well as predicted - so what?
About 8 Months ago, before the campaigns got going, I was on a course with work and one of the other attendees was a (Quite Gobby TBH) younger Scots fella... At the meal after, the topic drifted round to Scottish independence, He was wholeheartedly in favour (Even as a London Resident)...
Of course various people chipped in with different points about how the two theoretically separated countries would have to disentangle their respective institutions, economies, resources and relationship with the EU...
While He was fielding each of these, mostly reasonable, points with equally reasonable counter points it struck me that nobody in either camp (then or indeed now) has, or can really definitively addressed these technical points, and I suppose they won't until a final decision is made either way, and that perhaps that isn't really the point of the vote anyway, its about [I]National Identity[/I], not the details, but neither party is campaigning based on that basic question, they've both descended into smart-arse, hypothetical, technicalities and its all cobblers, they simply don't know how it might play out.
Have the vote, if scotland says "Yes" to independence then everyone can calmly sit down and start looking at the timetable and details of any separation... Trying to frame the debate based on unknown details and hypothetical future policies doesn't actually serve either campaign very well...
This thread now needs a sticky at the top of each page listing out the various Acronyms and Abbreviations so that late joiners can get up to speed.
Let me start:
BS = Alex Salmond's speech
its about National Identity, not the details, but neither party is campaigning based on that basic question, they've both descended into smart-arse, hypothetical, technicalities and its all cobblers, they simply don't know how it might play out.
Very well put.
I do wonder if the Yes strategy is the best one sometimes - like the Lamont vs Sturgeon debate last night, Sturgeon could have played it very well by just sitting back and letting Lamont rant angrily to herself.
This is the thing that I think winds people up about Alex Salmond - he often seems to be enjoying himself. Smug, perhaps, but that's better than whining and angry.
Anyhow, an interesting article about independence from a business point of view:
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/answers-for-a-no-minded-businessperson/
Smug, perhaps, but that's better than whining and angry.
Salmond doesn't do whining and angry? 😕
Anyhow, an interesting article about independence from a business point of view:http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/answers-for-a-no-minded-businessperson/
From the point of view of someone who's just graduated from university with a politics degree.
Scotland already pays 9.9% of total UK taxation towards total civil service costs and all regulatory bodies.The UK employs 448,835 civil servants as of March 2013.
74,240 civil servants are based in London and 45,470 civil servants are based in Scotland at the time of the figures. (Source)
Even on a simple calculation, Scotland’s financial contribution is paying for more civil servants per head in London than in Scotland.
Clearly I struggle with simple calculations, as London has a significantly higher population than Scotland, and the simple calculation I can see is that Scotland pays <10% of the civil service cost, yet gets >10% of the civil servants. That also doesn't appear to answer the question of whether Scotland will need more civil servants post independence.
For sure this is more nit-picking, but in an article which picks the nits it seems you should get the detail right.
Re Service is part of that reason not that they moved out the CS to the provinces - DVLA in swansea, Tax in Newcastle - not sure what Scotland has - in an effort to help poorer areas? Not saying that is true and explains it but it may well be a factor worthy of consideration
This is yet another article that wrongly thinks institutions are assets.
If they are not then rUK would give them all away that will never happen as they wish to keep and not share the valueless things.
Why would they argue about valueless stuff and not just go yeah have it?
Is it because it has value?
Amusing as this points probably makes the economists put their head in their hands and shake as it does the non economists with your view.
Can I have a definition you are using as it seems really narrow - I do not understand, and did not get a reply, as to why its reputation, trustworthiness or prestige is not an intangible asset.
It may be very difficult to put the reputation on a balance sheet but it still exists or companies would not care about it
Amusing as this points probably makes the economists put their head in their hands and shake as it does the non economists with your view.
😀
One benefit of independence would be the end of British summer time, there would simply not be enough justification to keep it in place. No more changing the clocks means lighter evenings. People would get out and exercise more in the winter so the UK would be a healthier place. It would mean that Scotland and the UK would be starting and finishing work at different times so trade would be affected, although Scotland trades more with the UK so it would hit them harder. When Scotland ends up with a new currency this would affect trade with the UK even further. Why do the Scots want to distance themselves from their largest trading partner?
Not changing the clocks is the clincher - goodbye Scotland! 😆
Why do the Scots want to distance themselves from their largest trading partner?
I could say exactly the same about the UK and Europe.
Not changing the clocks is the clincher - goodbye Scotland!
It means every time you phone someone in Scotland, they'll be able to say "och, what time do you call this? We've been up for hours!"
(Or maybe the other way around, can't be bothered working it out)
Lots of reasons . For me it is partly a matter of national identity, also because we would like to be governed by a government we elected. However I also think it is important that independence is not just an end but a means with which to build a fairer more socially just society and to manage theScottish economy more appropriately.It is up to us after we vote yes to make sure that we continue to bring real power closer to the ordinary people.
I believe that Westminster is much too strongly enmeshed with a political and economic clique who's policies have served the majority of people all over the UK very poorly for many years.
Why do the Scots want to distance themselves from their largest trading partner?
We don't, why do you think AS has been arguing for a currency union when it will mean a loss of power to any new Scottish government? We want to be independent of Westminster, but no isolationist. What most people want is a situation where our vote matters, we have full control over taxes and spending and still able to reap the benefits of the EU, rUK etc.
Whatnobeer said it better than me. It is alo important to say that a yes vote is not necessarily a vote for the SNP as there are other groups in the yes campaign.
Oh, no no no - we're not allowed to reap any benefits of the rUK, didn't you get the memo?
What most people want is a situation where our vote matters, we have full control over taxes and spending and still able to reap the benefits of the EU, rUK etc.
You mean you want to have your cake and eat it.
still able to reap the benefits of the EU, rUK etc.
Oh, no no no - we're not allowed to reap any benefits of the rUK, didn't you get the memo?
You guys still don't seem to get this [u]independence[/u] idea, do you?
[i]What most people want is a situation where our vote matters, we have full control over taxes and spending and still able to reap the benefits of the EU, rUK etc[/i]
A currency union is just not on the cards. We don't have one with the Republic of Ireland so why would we want one with an independent Scotland. Scotland's loss in trade could be to the benefit of the UK as people stop trading with Scotland and instead trade with companies in the UK. If Scotland chooses independence there will be no benefits of being part of the UK any more. Why favour one foreign country over another?
Youre implying we want something for nothing Grum but I think what we want is to make a fair deal which suits both iScotland and rUK.
Youre implying we want something for nothing Grum but I think what we want is to make a fair deal which suits both iScotland and rUK.
The trouble is, since devolution you've already pretty much got this:
a situation where our vote matters, we have full control over taxes and spending and still able to reap the benefits of the EU, rUK etc
And the way to get more control over taxes/spending while still keeping the benefits of the EU and UK would be Devo Max. You can't have independence while keeping everything that you like about the UK, and none of the bits you don't like.
grum - MemberYou mean you want to have your cake and eat it.
It's our cake too. We just want to stop you eating our share...
Well I dont support devo max, nor do I support a currency union without a compromise on relevant policies. I would see a currency union or Scottish use of sterling as a short term policy until Scotland joins the euro, and then we would hopefully both be in the EU. Until then why not continue to trade with each other and to have strong social ties?
We just want to stop you eating our share...
You see this kind of bollocks really winds me up. 'I' am 'eating 'your' share'? Really? 🙄
Well I dont support devo max
Interested to know why not? Is it just an emotional thing about wanting to be separate?
Until then why not continue to trade with each other and to have strong social ties?
Not sure anyone is arguing against that though are they? Even the No campaign aren't really suggesting that.
We don't have one with the Republic of Ireland so why would we want one with an independent Scotland
Did have for about 50 years.
You see this kind of bollocks really winds me up. 'I' am 'eating 'your' share'? Really?
Refusing to share the pound, which we contributed to as well.
Refusing to share the pound
I am doing that am I?
Nobody is 'refusing to share the pound' just saying it has to be done on terms which won't be detrimental to the rUK.
Is there a Yes campaign version of the Daily Mail? Because some of you would make great writers for it if their was - grossly distorted emotive arguments aren't helpful to anyone.
if their was.
Please can you 'learn' some proper language.
Then your opinion might count for something.
You mean you want to have your cake and eat it.
I think they want to choose the cake and decide whether to eat it rather than be fed the cake of your choice that they dont want and then told to like it or lump it as it is better for them 😛
MMMMMMM cakes could be the simple way to explain this to the masses...we could be on to something
Now does this cake have value or not?
Forget the eu;
Forget the £;
Forget Braveheart;
Forget the oil;
Forget the whiskey;
Forget nukes;
etc, etc.
I want the people of Scotland to be governed by the party they voted for.
If this means being shafted by holyrood instead of being shafted by westminster, then yes yes yes.
whatnobeer - Member
What most people want is a situation where our vote matters, we have full control over taxes and spending and still able to reap the benefits of the EU, rUK etc.
Respectfully, I would suggest that if you put that to anyone they would say they would love that outcome - all upside, no downside.. Sadly, the two are incompatible as the last decade has shown. It's like marriage, to enjoy the benefits of the union you cede some of your independence. The relevant case study is live and (just about) kicking just across the Channel. Europe will be moving towards greater levels of interdependence in the future - it has to if it is the survive. Why is Scotland unique and able to counter the weight of history, politics and economics alone? (Clue: it can't)
It's very difficult for currency unions to work in the first place. History is littered with broken examples. If you attempt to create and run them without full fiscal and monetary union, then you are stacking the odds firmly against you.
It should be very clear why the rUK is likely/definitely against a currency union with another state that wishes to run independent policies. The risks are (1) unbalanced since only one party could bail out the other due to size differentials and (2) unmanageable since rUK would be taking on the risk without any control. Only a fool would propose that to their electorate. Even the Europeans finally get this. None of this is bullying, it's not even economics or politics, it's basic common sense. Fortunately, our civil servants seem to have sufficient amounts.
If the tables were turned and rUK said we want a system where we take all the upside and none of the downside, you would reject that out of hand. And you would be correct to do so. It's a truly absurd notion.
It's a matter of national identity for me. Though the huge difficulty of changing the political system within the UK is an added motivation. In the UK/rUK I would support a new voting system,a genuine left of centre political party, promote much wider participation in politics at all levels,particularly from poor or working class people bring in tighter regulation of utilities and banks,a ceiling of some kind on bonuses and scrap the house of lords.
Then after lunch.... 🙂
[i]Did have for about 50 years[/i]
No we didn't the Irish pound was pegged to the UK pound. This is not a currency union, we were not lender of last resort.
The pound belonged to England before the union with Scotland, hence why we get to keep it. Scotland contributed taxes and they were spent, there is no piggy bank in the Bank of England full of Scottish money, Scotland did not buy shares in the Bank of England.
The Irish situation is interesting. (Yet again,) I would recommend McCrones book for a well presented summary of that bit of history.
If this means being shafted by holyrood instead of being shafted by westminster, then yes yes yes.
More to the point, when they do shaft you. We can vote them out, and they'll actually go out.
It's a matter of national identity for me. Though the huge difficulty of changing the political system within the UK is an added motivation. In the UK/rUK I would support a new voting system,a genuine left of centre political party, promote much wider participation in politics at all levels,particularly from poor or working class people bring in tighter regulation of utilities and banks,a ceiling of some kind on bonuses and scrap the house of lords.
Thank you for one of the most sensible and honest arguments I've seen on the issue.
I'm not sure how well you'll get on with achieving some of it if you do go independent but I hope you succeed.
Please can you 'learn' some proper language.
Then your opinion might count for something.
Is that the best you can come up with? 🙄
Nationalisation
wikiis the process of taking a private industry or private assets into public ownership by a national government or state.[1
The Bank of England was nationalised by the [b]UK[/b] government in 1946
I suspect I ll be a long time dead before that list is done either way Grum 😆
But its a chance to make a good start.
[i]The Bank of England was nationalised by the UK government in 1946[/i]
It has been around for 319 years. Longer than the union and it has been an English bank a lot longer than it has been nationalised. The pound is still English no matter how you look at it. No to a currency union and you buy your bank notes off the UK if you decide to use it without a currency union. You don't take your share of debt we stop sending bank notes north of the border.
On national identity, I know everyone feels differently, however my wife has lived in Scotland for 10+ years and still feels like a guest, a welcome guest, but a guest none the less. She feels a sense of guilt that she should be voting on Scotlands future when many other 'Scots' are not eligible. My own feelings of national identity have become watered down, and if I don't hear Flower of Scotland' again I would not miss it, however, it feels like a pride in many aspects of Scotland is being highjacked for a cause of independence.
I just feel that the day I have to apply for dual nationality for my children at the behest of those that don't like the Tories much, will be a sad day indeed.