[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

But what about those who were Yes and have moved to No. Are they "wrong"?

I believe they are, but I would say that.

A brief glance at the polls will tell you that a lot more people have shifted from No to Yes (or at least undecided at the moment) than the other way around.

Her advice was to think carefully. How can anyone argue with that? Are you saying people should not think?

It is probably the best argument for the abolition of the monarchy if the best guidance she can give in the most important constitutional event in 300 years is "think carefully". WTF.

Salmond ha said she would remain Queen of an independent Scotland.

he has to support that or he could be guilty of treason - and all that goes with it.

Good to see some people are planning ahead for a Yes result:

[img] [/img]

😀

Are they "wrong"?

No, they're stupid, because Yes is the only possible correct answer, and anyone who votes No either doesn't understand the arguments for Yes, or hasn't heard them enough yet...

leaked...
[img] [/img]

That is genius, Mike- cheers!

oldbloke - Member

Back to EU membership then - looks like the Spanish won't let any of the ScotGovt proposed easy shortcuts happen.

Is it even his decision to make? Seems weird to talk about integration out of one side of your mouth while talking about making it harder to integrate out of the other. If the spirit of the age is integration, help Scotland integrate.

(though, obviously this is yet another occasion of Spain not threatening the veto, which definitely [i]is[/i] their decision to make)

Is it his decision to make?

@mike excellent not least King Alexander the First of Scotland

Is it even his decision to make? Seems weird to talk about integration out of one side of your mouth while talking about making it harder to integrate out of the other. If the spirit of the age is integration, help Scotland integrate.

Yup, we can file this under "meh" - he's saying that because hundreds of thousands of Catalonians are on the streets demanding a referendum on independence.

After the referendum, if there's a Yes result, then realpolitik will take over. For fishing reasons alone, Spain would be crazy to want Scotland out of the EU.

jambalaya - Member

yes in that it's Spain's decision to make as they have a veto along with all the other EU members.

Except he's not talking about the veto, is he? He's talking about EU policy in general- faster/bodged joining, bridging treaties, etc.

The veto [i]is[/i] Spain's decision, but he's not mentioned it. Draw your own conclusions .

Just looking ahead to the 'No' vote......I said it would all end in tears and by God, will it ever! All the No voters will be keeping their heads down, while the nationalist rant and rage against the foul tactics used by the Westminster B@stards! 😯

Maybe. There's a lot of cultural inertia there, from people who have only known the UK their whole lives. That might be behind the age split - the over-65 age group is the only group that's backing No.

Not by the results of that poll, which shows 55+ as against. And in a real slap in the face, it also shows the 16-24 voting against. Perhaps the decision to allow 16 year olds to vote will be the swing.

What's your source?

Spain don't have to threaten the veto, [u]yet[/u]

They can just make it nice and slow from the inside, making demands, slowing it down, expecting hoops to be jumped through, expecting a high price to be paid, before even getting to the point of exercising a veto.

What better message could they send to Catalonia than "Look how difficult it has been for Scotland to rejoin the EU after announcing independence, and what happened to their economy in the meantime"

ninfan - Member

What better message could they send to Catalonia than "Look how difficult it has been for Scotland to rejoin the EU after announcing independence, and what happened to their economy in the meantime"

Um, how about "Scotland wanted to join the EU but couldn't"- that's something they can threaten, right now. A lot better than "We made it hard for Scotland to join the EU, and as a result the economy of Spain suffered, we're Better Together!"

What @ninfan says exactly, Spain don't have to use the veto word yet, they can wait and see what happens and are probably aware there will be other negative voices so no need to put their head too far above the parapit just yet. I acknowledge he was talking about no fast track explicitly but it's all political speak pointing in a very specific direction, why say you'll veto now if the actual first vote on application is a year or more away. Just keep kicking the can down the road.

I imagine Spain will have one eye on Scottish tourists so no need to be too difficult right now but they have very consistently said it has to be a fresh new member application.

If it is a significant No it's going to point very strongly to Murdoch meddling with the polls his papers commissioned and published.

Northwind

You're stuck in this Salmond mindset of stomping around throwing around threats and ultimatums to look like the big man and intimidate everyone. The only people who do that are ones who are full of wind and piss, the ones with real power keep their hands close to their chest.

Spain can quite calmly assassinate Scotlands chances behind the scenes without making a fuss, and send a much stronger message to Catalonia in the process.

PS. we're back to that difficult question:

You might be right, they might not make it difficult!
But on the other hand, you might be wrong, in which case...whats plan B?

ninfan - Member

Spain can quite calmly assassinate Scotlands chances behind the scenes without making a fuss

Keeping an independent Scotland out of the EU, even temporarily, isn't a good result for Spain- they can't damage Scotland without damaging themselves. A Spanish PM going into an election having devastated the fishing industry is going to have a fun ride. Spain is one of the EU nations that has most to lose if Scotland has to go through a term of being outwith the EU. How many jobs, euros and votes is the impact on Catalan independence worth?

Meanwhile, Spain would be well served on several fronts by a No vote, and have the capacity to strongly influence that. A guarantee of a veto today would almost certainly keep Scotland in the UK.

It's not brain surgery- why choose the more damaging option with the worse outcome? I asked the same question the other day, I didn't see any answers...

I have no idea why you're trying to extract meaning from it.

I'm not!

It makes no difference who said it, it's true - think carefully. It was a throwaway comment that I didn't make, and that's fine. What I'm angry about is the way that bencooper twisted it to imply all sorts of negative things, as he has been doing for ages along with the rest of the Yes campaign. It's constant spin and propaganda, which is really ironic since that's one of the things people hate the establishment for...

Meanwhile, Spain would be well served on several fronts by a No vote, and have the capacity to strongly influence that. A guarantee of a veto today would almost certainly keep Scotland in the UK.

What I'm angry about is the way that bencooper twisted it to imply all sorts of negative things, as he has been doing for ages along with the rest of the Yes campaign.

What did I twist? I just asked why should I care what she thinks. She may well be secretly in favour of independence for all we know, but I don't see why her opinion is relevant.

but I don't see why her opinion is relevant.

[b]Unelected[/b] Head of state and major land [s]owner[/s] grabber in Scotland?

FTFY

except you can't play your hand that early it leaves you stuck in a corner. Negotiations 101 there

This - see Salmond and the debt for an example.

As for Scotland blocking spanish fishing vessels, hah, more wind and pish! A new cod war? Last time we needed 37 Royal Navy ships and 7000 men 😆

Sry if this has been covered, but would yes mean Cameron's resignation? Be a vote of no confidence surely [can a vote of no-confidence come from your own back-benchers, or does it have to come from the opposition?]

aww does it upset you? Probably also an employer of quite a few people too.

A brief glance at the polls will tell you that a lot more people have shifted from No to Yes (or at least undecided at the moment) than the other way around.

Given the results of almost every poll, if an equal proportion of each side changed their minds what sort of shift would that result in?

Given the health of Scotland is so desperately linked to oil does anyone know where I can find the assumptions made re pricing and average cost of extraction?

but I don't see why her opinion is relevant.

Her opinion wasn't mentioned. You appeared to load your statement with anti royalist sentiment to discredit what seems at first reading to be a statement aligned with a No.

Buried in all that Cameron rhetoric was the bit about Embassies, I hadn't thought about that, so they'll have to establish Embassy's around the world or can they piggy back?

More jobs for the boys I guess and they'll presumably have to set up a civil service, that's going to cost some Tax *dollars/salmonds.

There's quite a lot to think about.

*what will they call their currency

here we go

Furious Scottish nationalists have accused Sky News reporter Kay Burley of calling a Yes campaigner a 'knob' live on air.

A video of the alleged incident appears to show the anchor calling someone a knob, but it's unclear what side of the referendum debate the 'knob' was on, if indeed the person was a political campaigner at all.

[b]But that didn't stop nationalists immediately launching scathing abuse of Burley on social media, accusing her of being biased against camp 'Yes," and calling her "disgusting."[/b]

Seems fair, must be biased based on nothing at all

Buried in all that Cameron rhetoric was the bit about Embassies, I hadn't thought about that, so they'll have to establish Embassy's around the world or can they piggy back?

According to the SNP, they'll be entitled to a share of them
According to Prof Dunleavy (he of the '200 million setup cost' claim) the rUK will allow Scotland to share
According to Prof Tomkins, (the expert in international law called to give evidence by both Scottish and UK parliaments) the Vienna treaty applies and Scotland gets nothing (state property outside the UK remains with the UK as continuator state) (Vienna treaty bears out this interpretation)

what will they call their currency

Worthless

@Northwind, as I said you can join if you sign up for everything and follow the process. If during the process (outside the EU) Scotland tries to block fishing then the veto / stand off will come.

@Garry, no Cameron will not resign nor should he. I think many will ask why he allowed the referendum, a dissolution of the Union by a 50.1 to 49.9 vote ?

@rossatease, I mentioned that a few hundred pages back (easy to miss !) it is one example of the many where Scotland will have to replicate what the UK already has. Higher costs for both as Scotland replicates and UK has to pay for same facilities/organisations but from a lower tax base. Lose Lose.

@mikesmith, there where abusive hecklers on Newsnight a few nights ago, its not surprising some of the journalists have lost their temper. I posted up the blog quotes from ITN journalist the other day who said during this campaign he had experienced significant intimidation and mostly from the Yes side.

Mikewsmith; where did you get that declaration of indy? I looked on huff and couldnt find it.

There are 2 points in there, one is the level that people have sunk to, and the other is that the Yes campaign decided that it was obvious that they were against them. Unless the Yes lot know that they have all the knobs on their side of course then it's like that moment in the pub where you just admit to something and realise it's a really big mistake and wonder if anyone noticed.

Embassies are generally secure places from an intelligence/communications perspective, why would we let a foreign country inside our secure areas ?

Aside from the buildings there will be a long queue of Scot's civil servants and politicians who will want to be ambassador to New York, Brazil, Australia etc etc etc Much more exciting than being at home trying to deliver utopia and balance the books or be held accountable for all the wild promises.

duckman it was on their comedy site & twitter feed
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/17/scottish-declaration-of-independence_n_5834142.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

I think they are still busy summarising this thread too

@mikesmith, there where abusive hecklers on Newsnight a few nights ago, its not surprising some of the journalists have lost their temper. I posted up the blog quotes from ITN journalist the other day who said during this campaign he had experienced significant intimidation and mostly from the Yes side.

Whereas the Police Federation say that the campaigns on both sides have been overwhelmingly peaceful and civilised, and warn the press specifically about stirring up animosity.

So Ben are the journalists lying? Or are the police not seeing everything. Perhaps people are not reporting things to the police and hence they do not know about it.

So Ben are the journalists lying?

More like lazy journalism I'd have thought? All based on rumour.

What I'm angry about is the way that bencooper twisted it to imply all sorts of negative things, as he has been doing for ages along with the rest of the Yes campaign. It's constant spin and propaganda, which is really ironic since that's one of the things people hate the establishment for...

Wouldn't surprise me if BenCooper is a paid member of the SNP/Yes campaign, popped on this forum to drum up some support. Stranger things have happened I'm sure.

It galls me that the Yes campaign seem to be implying that you're a traitor or not a true Scot unless you vote Yes. Anyone who tells the truth like it is or disagrees with the SNP/Yes crowd immediately gets jumped on and accused of bullying, bias or oppression (as can be seen time and time again by the Yes campaigners on this forum).

Actually the 'True Scot' thing couldn't be further from the truth. The Scots I know well (okay, yes all two of them) are both voting No. They're about the most patriotic and proud Scots you could hope to meet, but they have their eyes and ears sufficiently open to realise that there are many more opportunities, and none of the risks for Scotland by remaining part of the Union (the best of both worlds). Both are proud to also be part of the UK, although they consider themselves Scots first and foremost. I'd argue that these two Scots care far more about the future of Scotland than those blindly following their Nationalistic and Tory/English bashing agenda's. Thankfully they are both happy to not cut their nose off, despite their face.

More like lazy journalism I'd have thought? All based on rumour.

So Ben are the journalists lying?

Or perhaps spinning or not fully reporting the facts so readers jump to conclusions?

For example, it was reported that two people had been arrested outside a Yes concert. That's all that was reported, leaving the implication that it was Yes people who were arrested. Actually it was two thugs beating up a Yes supporter.

Or when a woman was kicked in the stomach after challenging what a speaker was saying in Argyle St, it was reported as a scuffle between the two sides.

Or when Jim Murphy is hit with an egg, it gets four days of rolling coverage. When a Yes shop is spraypainted with Swastikas, no media coverage.

Or when a SSP meeting in Drumchapel had to be called off a couple of days ago because a Unionist crowd had assembled and were threatening people, the police intervened but the media weren't interested.

There are, I think the phrase is "regrettable incidents", on both sides - but invariably the ones perpetrated by Yes supporters are given massive media coverage whereas the ones perpetrated by the No side are either minimally reported or not covered at all.