What exactly are the SNP's plans for welfare and paying for it?
Probably the same as the £450m cuts they had planned for the Scottish NHS, that they were trying to keep secret till after the referendum!
that is shoddy from the Independent tbh as even its own story does not support the headline
The First Minister today said claims of cuts were “mythical”, pointing to plans passed in the Scottish Parliament this year that will see the overall health budget rise from £11.9bn to £12.7bn next year.
Mr Salmond told Good Morning Scotland: “What this paper does is part of the normal planning in the health service.
”It says we'll need 3.5 per cent efficiencies in order to meet commitments in the rising cost of procedures in the health service.
Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling have clashed over the future of the NHS Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling have clashed over the future of the NHS “In the last six years we have managed 3 per cent and that's all been ploughed back, every single penny of it, into the health service. That's why we have increased funding in real terms.”
I thought you would have been delighted they were making the public sector more efficient rather than using tiit to beat the,very principled of you 😛
”It says we'll need 3.5 per cent efficiencies in order to meet commitments in the rising cost of procedures in the health service.
What does that mean?
I take it you are being deliberately naive JY?
We've had enough of this name calling and abuse!
You lot reckon we're not capable of organising anything, well look at this! We're ready with a day to go...
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😈
how are Scottish people actually being oppressed, right now? As distinct from anyone in England, Wales or NI?
Junkyard
One tory MP= Tory led govt
two parties with minority of votes and seats combined = the govt
Labour = winners= opposition
Is this really oppression? The people of Gaza and North Korea can only drean of oppression like that!
I think the West Midlands has 24 Labour MP's and only 10 Conservatives. Is the West Midlands currently oppressed?
To be fair, the first past the post system does not suit tory representation in Scotland. Remember too that at the recent European election about 25% of Scots voted either Tory or UKIP.
Is this really oppression?
It's democracy in action.
Gordon Brown speaks out...
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(Thanks to the BBC for the loan of the Tardis)
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416 is the original story - I don't see how an increase in funding proves that there isn't a funding gap, not with the NHS! We already did NHS funding increasing less in Scotland than in rUK didn't we?
I hope it's a yes vote because the cynical, Westminster-centric cartel MUST be broken at any cost. I'd rather we united as a group of Islands to achieve it but if it takes a painful and costly split in the old union to do it then fine.Our politicians have failed us, our business leaders look for more opportunities to screw us and our media report whatever their bosses tell them to. We are being utterly let down by the current system and the people it attracts. We need a big change, a federal island of regional assemblies, with proportional representation and money spent on making sure that everyone in our society is valued, supported and given the opportunity to exceed their own expectations. We won't get that from Westminster. Ever.
@yossarian I feel quite sorry that you are so disillusioned. We live in one of the most prosperous democratic countries in the world with a generous welfare safety net. As a country of 60m we are quite a small democracy by world standards, so local government is some way. I think you will be very dissapointed if you think a Scottish parliament will be much different than Westminster, what's more Alex Salmond has demonstrated quite clearly he's a devious and dishonest politician of the very worst kind. The notion that an independent Scotland is going to somehow magically deliver a more socially equal, farer more caring society is a fantasy. The reality is that the numbers don't stack up for a small country and Scotland will struggle to maintain the current levels of social spending whilst facing the costs of more beaurocracy.
You are voting for a big change and a Yes is likely to deliver a significantly worse situation than the one you currently face.
@epic I think we can let Gordon repeat himself once ever 35 years. I rarely go a day or two without saying the same thing.
Don't forget that it's not a vote for the SNP - Scotland will doubtless produce politicians other than AS who aren't so dishonest. Scotland does after all have a good recent record in producing honest top level politicians.
ohnohesback - Member
Seosamh77; that is a brilliant piece of writing!POSTED 2 HOURS AGO #
Yip, it is. I'm no even arguing with anyone about it, just leaving it there. 🙂
Wasn't me btw! I just found it on another forum i'm on. I don't have a link to the original.
the thing is the Scottish politicans in westminster that are so bad for scotland now will be the same politicians representing Scotland in the Scottish parliament, so nothing will change, its just a nationalist xenophobic nonsense,
why is ukip seen for what it is and yet the SNP is lauded as some kind of saviour of the people?
whatever happend scotland is the loser as the ugly stench of nationalism isnt going to go away, and not only will the scots be set against each other, but now they are pushing many english away and no one wins with this.
Our politicians have failed us, our business leaders look for more opportunities to screw us and our media report whatever their bosses tell them to. We are being utterly let down by the current system and the people it attracts. We need a big change, a federal island of regional assemblies, with proportional representation and money spent on making sure that everyone in our society is valued, supported and given the opportunity to exceed their own expectations. We won't get that from Westminster. Ever.
To be fair, I think globalisation is out of the control of our politicians, business leaders and media.
I'm not saying they're doing a sterling job (read Hack Attack by Nick Davies, about how Murdoch has interacted with UK government and how other media orgs have turned a blind eye to see how much dishonesty we're fed daily), but it's worth remembering that our parents grew up in a postwar period which naturally meant growth, but that was never going to go on for ever
The West had the political power and growth naturally followed the War because Europe and the UK were close to broke...however, the post-war boom had to come to an end at some point and we're just unlucky to be around at the time when it has... government has been trying to hide this with credit growth since the early 90's - which ended in the credit crunch in 2008 - which wasn't the cause of our current issues, it was a symptom of long term weakness.
It's very easy and attractive to blame 'them' but it's really more complex than that. This is a cyclical thing - no-one stays rich and powerful for ever.
I seriously doubt that localising UK politics and further devolution will help us counter the threat from China, Asia, India etc, as attractive it may be to blame the current establishment...
As Jambalaya says, UK is still one of the world's most democratic and wealthy countries - and I think we should be grateful for what we do have, and build on the opportunities we do have to survive the changes in global economic and political power. The World is not a zero-sum game...
The First Minister today said claims of cuts were “mythical”, pointing to plans passed in the Scottish Parliament this year that will see the overall health budget rise from £11.9bn to £12.7bn next year.
I've now had a chance to try and find a record of this and failing. I don't suppose anybody knows how I might find this sort of thing? Because the only stuff I can find contradicts that:
http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7366
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/09/7829/5
(admittedly the latter is quite old, and I presume the former has some bias?)
...found this whilst I was looking, which is quite interesting
Aracer - the published draft 2014/5 budget, page 25, is interesting
Survation-Scottish Daily Fail
NEW #indyref poll for Scottish Daily Mail:
Yes 44% (+2), No 48% (NC), Undecided 8% (-2) (Change since 11 September)
Aracer - the published draft 2014/5 budget, page 25, is interesting
Like the bit that says spending on sport will go from £203m this year, to £58m next year? Or have I misread that?
Curious mix of attitudes on tonight's club hill run.
Surprised at just how serious and advanced some have prepared for a move out of Scotland in the event of a Yes, and a desire to leave driven by a stronger sense of Britishness than any other reason.
Certainly less sign of the confidence of Yes supporters displayed here or on Facebook. One even going so far as to suggest many will bottle it when it comes to ticking the box, which is don't agree with tbh. I was really surprised at the long term proponent of independence and lifelong SNP supporter/member who'd never found time to get out and campaign....despite being retired.
Considerable difference to my Thursday night club, which is almost universally confident in Yes. I'm sure there's a name for when people end up developing whatever attitude is prevalent in those around them.
brooess - Member
...As Jambalaya says, UK is still one of the world's most democratic and wealthy countries...
Democratic? Aye, right...
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Wealthy? Increasing debt isn't wealth.
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Aracer - the published draft 2014/5 budget, page 25, is interesting
Like the bit that says spending on sport will go from £203m this year, to £58m next year? Or have I misread that?
I'm completely guessing but has that got something to do with the Commonwealth Games expenditure these past 2/3 years?
Yes, I think you're right. Breakdown is on page 31.
More embarrassment for Scotlands finest Uni - time to put one graduate in the bottle dungeon. Freedom anyone?
YS really are showing their true colours as it reaches a climax.
Amazing book to be written - the more he is exposed for what he is, the closer the vote. The ironies of modern politics.
They stated many times that they will not interfere in another countries business. This is because they don't want anyone interfering in theirs, especially with reference to Catalonia.
Spain vetoing iScotland's entry to the EU would not be interference with another country's internal affairs: Spain has a vote on membership of an international organisation and it's not interference to use it in a way that Nats wouldn't like.
Having said that, I don't think that Spain would actually veto iScotland's membership, but I know even less about Spanish/Basque/Catalan politics than I do about Armenian, so...
Scotland isn't being oppressed, it's not about that, tbh it's about the fact that England, Wales and NI are oppressed in the shape of prescription charges, education charges, and what looks like is going to be nhs charges eventually.athgray - Member
how are Scottish people actually being oppressed, right now? As distinct from anyone in England, Wales or NI?
We want nothing to do with that. If you want to stop a yes vote, offer all these things to the rUK. The biggest fear of all is that over time, winstminster will eventually convince the people of scotland that we can't afford these things.
I guarantee scotland would vote no on thursday if these things were offered across the board..
And don't give me any crap that they aren't affordable, they are, scotland gets roughly it's fair share of uk money, you can argue about a few quid here or there, I don't care, but it's affordable in scotland, it should be affordable across the uk.
You talk about a fair society across Britain, stop taking the wrong side and join us, as the article says, England needs to start it's own revolution, rather than agreeing with bean counters that pepper us with scare stories.
The fair ladies of Scotland have a heavy responsibility
Good for you ladies - we might even let you into the R&A now!!!
Let's be honest here: Yes = Street Parties, No = Friday...
I don't think that Spain would actually veto iScotland's membership, but I know even less about Spanish/Basque/Catalan politics than I do about Armenian, so...
The argument is that Spain prefers this to happen as it happened with the consent of the UK ie constitutionally. They think that by allowing a constitutional version they preclude the Catalans doing a vote/EU application unilaterally without Spanish.
There is little in it for Spain IMHO. I dont think it much affects The catalan issue myself. Do you think Catalan getting independence would "inspire" this vote or Wales to want it more?
Seems unlikely but also not massively well informed.
I guarantee scotland would vote no on thursday if these things were offered across the board..
😆 at the edit.
aye, not quite what i ment! 🙂piemonster - Member
I guarantee scotland would vote no on thursday if these things were offered across the board..
at the edit.
Edited point stands though.
I thought you had arrived at Damascus!!! Still time yet..... 😉
Wealthy? Increasing debt isn't wealth.
@epic pity 13 years of Labour government thought differently. From everything I have seen an independent Scotland will run up more debt on a relative basis than the UK. More Greek than Swiss.
Yes, I think you're right. Breakdown is on page 31.
In fact it appears that other spending on sport gets a 50% boost now they're not paying for the Commies. I guess a similar thing happened with the Olympics.
Scotland isn't being oppressed, it's not about that, tbh it's about the fact that England, Wales and NI are oppressed in the shape of prescription charges, education charges, and what looks like is going to be nhs charges eventually.
We want nothing to do with that. If you want to stop a yes vote, offer all these things to the rUK. The biggest fear of all is that over time, winstminster will eventually convince the people of scotland that we can't afford these things.
and voting Yes won't guarantee any of these things. If the money runs out then charges will happen, you may get a change in government, again as the Yes campaign keep telling us this isn't a vote for the SNP.
Bean counter alert!
I suppose you don't need to count beans if you've been promised a big bag of magic beans...
so, to the Yessers, imagine you win the referendum. what does success for iScotland look like? if we revisit this thread in 1, 3 or 5 years after independence, what metrics will have had to have improved or what changes made so you think "that was all worthwhile"?
and, I suppose, to the Noers, what would iScotland have to achieve before you'd think "it turns out I was wrong and it was all worthwhile"?
You need a longer time frame than that KB.
If there is a Yes, I won't celebrate it. When independence is gained, I won't celebrate it. If in 10 years time, things are better. Then, and only then will I celebrate it. Anything else is premature or celebrating the wrong thing IMHO.
Rome wasn't buil..... blah blah blah.
jambalaya - Member
"Wealthy? Increasing debt isn't wealth."
@epic pity 13 years of Labour government thought differently...
Agree. Labour and socialist ideologies need to get into the 21st century where we cannot depend on exploiting dusky skinned people in the colonies to top up our GDP.
Can't cure the Tories, they'll screw anyone. 🙂
Just think, in 24 hours the people of Scotland will be sovereign for the first time in history.
By 10pm the question will be - have they handed this on a plate to the likes of Cameron and his mates, or kept it?
Anyhow, I'm off oot. Patriotic nationalist duties etc. I'll check back to see what you BritNats have been up to tonight. 🙂
(Nah, I don't really think you're BritNats.)
FWIW, I'm still deeply cynical that Yes will achieve much. Just not quite as cynical as I am of a No.
It'll still involve negative elements of politics, it'll still be an economy that favours those already with money.
I had an interesting chat with a guy last night. Both of us batting for the same Yes team.
He brought up a good point.
We both agreed that the long term benefits of a Yes vote would be worth a hit to our personal finances.
But the poorest people don't have the luxury of that choice in the way he and I do, even if they think it would be in their long term interest.
For the guys out there who can't eat on a Friday even a slight increase in cost of living above the current upwards trend could mean not eating on Thursday or Wednesday too.
I mean, that increase could be very short term - a couple of weeks or months. It could also be longer term.
But in the short term it could push people over the edge.
It's scary and saddening how precarious some people's lives are even in our modern, advanced, civilised country.
Well the fat lady is gargling TCP in preparation for her aria
I've thought about how I'd vote, if I had a say.
I think it would be yes
I don't like the way the yes campaign has gone about it's job, particularly at grass roots level but I'm a risk taker and I think I would take this particular one.
Besides, if I were in Scotland and it al went wrong, I'd just leave 🙂
So my cross goes in the YES box
How about other non-voters?
Dimbleby gave Salmond an easy time last night. He allowed Salmond to dictate the interview, the occasions when Salmond got flustered Dimbleby just let him go off on a tangent. Salmond agreed there would be challenges with independence, Dimbleby asked what the risks would be, Salmond immediately looked flustered and mumbled and then went off on what he wanted to say which had nothing to do with the risks. Dimbleby allowed him to talk his usual waffle instead of coming back at him. What a missed opportunity!
Opinum yes 48 no 52
news.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/opiniumtelegraph-scottish-referendum-poll
Same for ICM
