molgrips - Member
'A country is a country if the people living there think it is."
Not true I'm afraid. There are lots of definitions, yours is only one. And not the one that matters, really.
It is the one that matters. Anything else is oppression and often met with resistance.
I don't think you have any idea what oppression is
I see 'Britain' as a geographical term. Scotland is in Britain, just as France is in Europe
All you have done is define yourself as a Nationalist. It is not an argument that does anything to convince people who are not Nationalists in any way.
Wow, got a little darker in here. Feeling distinctly unwelcome.
do you need a cuddle what about a song
Epicyclo - I wouldn't bother washing it any more, I think you've got it just about right, a flag that represents the absolute mess the independent voters are going to get us in!
Scotland or whatever it is is very dark at the moment. I hate to say it but everyone is getting a bit too emotional and I think this will lead to people getting hurt on Friday. I have heard of people reporting both sides to the police for aggressive behaviour....
it isn't important where you come from, what matters is where we are going together as a nation" Bashir Ahmed - born Amiritsar India, SNP msp until he died
It will be fine either way
imnotverygood - Member
'I see 'Britain' as a geographical term. Scotland is in Britain, just as France is in Europe'
All you have done is define yourself as a Nationalist....
Well I'm not French or Greek or anything else, I'm Scottish. Do tell me that it's not England this and England that in England.
I'm amazed how quickly Nationalist has become a dirty word when a country wishes to exercise its democratic right to remove itself from an increasingly toxic union. Nothing to do with English Nationalists seeing their milch cow disappearing is it?
molgrips - Member
Wow, got a little darker in here. Feeling distinctly unwelcome.
It's starting to look much brighter here.
People are starting to entertain hopes that we are not going to suffer the wholesale loss of another generation of our young because of the lack of opportunity here.
But you're still welcome.
Well I'm not French or Greek or anything else, I'm Scottish. Do tell me that it's not England this and England that in England.
Have a look in your passport. If in doubt, that's what I do. The point is, it doesn't matter to me all that much. If it does to you, well there y'go, but it is a self-perception you are putting forward and is therefore unconvincing to anyone who doesn't share your views.
I'm amazed how quickly Nationalist has become a dirty word when a country wishes to exercise its democratic right to remove itself from an increasingly toxic union.
Certainly been a dirty word for some time where an EU referendum is involved.
imnotverygood - Member
...but it is a self-perception you are putting forward and is therefore unconvincing to anyone who doesn't share your views.
Quick, get on the blower, you may save a few million people getting out of bed early on Thursday to vote...
A country is acountry if the people living there think it is.
I suggest you try putting "Scotland" as country of birth when going through Australian immigration and see whether they agree with you (I'm sure that also applies in other places)
If we're sharing out all of the UKs assets on a non-geographical basis then I think the 9% of London Bridge that includes the middle section should be declared Scottish territory. There will be a (reasonable) toll charge levied for using it (each way, of course).
I'm amazed how quickly Nationalist has become a dirty word when a country wishes to exercise its democratic right to remove itself from an increasingly toxic union.
TBH 'Nationalist' has pretty negative connotations to me. Whether it is Serbian Nationalists, Russian Nationalists, Japanese Nationalists, whatever, never seem to be particularly nice people. The BNP?
To me the term Nationalist implies people who have a small-minded loyalty to where they were born and a tendency to fear and blame human beings they think of as 'others'. It is a mindest which buys into xenophobic myth-making and a sense of that 'history' matters more than the present.
Wow, got a little darker in here
yeah I think this thread has gone pretty sour, when defaced flags are getting posted maybe it's all getting a bit low level and provocative. still only a couple more days of it all... hopefully!
People are starting to entertain hopes that we are not going to suffer the wholesale loss of another generation of our young because of the lack of opportunity here.
but the lack of opportunity as you put it is a much more localised thing within Scotland, as it is in rUK
or was the local Scottish employer I talked to who warned my team that we would struggle to recruit staff "because everyone who wants a job has one"
lying to us/ making it up?
big_n_daft - Memberor was the local Scottish employer I talked to who warned my team that we would struggle to recruit staff "because everyone who wants a job has one" lying to us/ making it up?
Of course he was. FFS.
People are starting to entertain hopes that we are not going to suffer the wholesale loss of another generation of our young because of the lack of opportunity here.
You have a large amount of faith in basically nothing. You must have a correspondingly large chip on your shoulder about Westminster.
But you're still welcome.
Don't feel it. I'm worried I'll become a foreigner where I wasn't before.
I'm amazed how quickly Nationalist has become a dirty word
That's because it's the opposite of unity, and it's inherently negative. You look at your neighbours or even compatriots and think 'we don't want to be with them'. Plus over the years nationalism has been strongly associated with fighting.
Actually, I'll edit that: When a territory has been occupied against the will of the people who've then been oppressed, that's not good. However don't you dare pretend that's what happend in Scotland!
@ Big_n_daft I think your employer is telling your team to do more work for no more money 🙂
@molgrips for me nationalism means taking control of our own affairs into our own hands
aracer - Member
"A country is acountry if the people living there think it is."
I suggest you try putting "Scotland" as country of birth when going through Australian immigration and see whether they agree with you (I'm sure that also applies in other places)
I have been doing that for 40 years.
bigjim - Member
yeah I think this thread has gone pretty sour, when defaced flags are getting posted maybe it's all getting...
Surely worrying about the flag is being "Nationalistic".
Anyhow, not defacing it, just washing the imperialistic bloodstains out... 🙂
@molgrips for me nationalism means taking control of our own affairs into our own hands
Nationalism means you think they're not already in your own hands.
Thought experiment - are my affairs in my own hands? What about Junkyard or binners?
I cannot speak for binners But I dont control you 😉
I know how molgrips likes a good wiki article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom
ninfan - Member
> http://theporridge.co.uk/post/97200316543/im-shiteing-myself-by-alex-salmond
br />
I'll bet he is! Poor chap has aged 10 years in the last few months. 😆
Hmmmm. I [i]have[/i] noticed that molgrips & binners never ever post at exactly the same time. 😕
Now, here's a good article by a well respected author:
Not really sure what the point of your thought experiment is molgrips. My point is that ethnicity is of no importance to me. Further to that all the people of scotland could vote for any party in a westminster election and still get a government of different party depending on how voting went in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
I guess you are going to tell me that Scotland is not a country and that its citizens wherever they may have been born are not a nation. Thats something well just have to disagree about.
A good and astute article, by the looks of it.
Not really sure what the point of your thought experiment is molgrips.
Just answer the questions, if you can?
Or, to rephrase - why is a nation special?
This article is by Ben Thompson founder of the devoplus group who is considering voting yes.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/15/devo-plus-yes-vote-unionists-devolution-independent-scotland ]Ben Thompson in The Guardian[/url]
Since I dont know your circumstances or Binners or Junkyards I cant say.
Tomorrow's Better Together Theme Tune:
aracer - MemberI suggest you try putting "Scotland" as country of birth when going through Australian immigration
I checked in with my brother, he's done it twice, no bother. He's incredibly white so they welcomed him with open arms. As far as he can remember, same was true of Canada, the USA and Cuba (though that last one raised some eyebrows when he went back to the states), new zealand, samoa, thailand, china, russia, malaysia and singapore. And probably some others, I can't keep up.
I've been to Australia 4 times - Scotland is always the country of birth that I put down. No problems ever. Same with every other country in the world that has had such a requirement. Never had to give anyone a geography lesson yet.
They must just be racist against the English then. England got crossed out when I put that.
aracer - MemberThey must just be racist against the English
If there's one thing you can say with confidence about australians, it's that they're not just racist against the English.
Since I dont know your circumstances or Binners or Junkyards I cant say.
I'm a left-leaning voter living in Wales, and binners and Junkyard are similar in Northern England.
Are their affairs in their own hands whilst there's a Tory government?
They must just be racist against the English then.
To be fair, there are a lot of folk around the world who don't like the English. Just like there are a lot of folk around the world who don't like Americans and Australians. In my experience, people abroad change their attitude towards me significantly when I tell them that I'm Scottish and not English and it's never been a negative change. Personally I dont know why this is and I like a lot of people in England.
Spanish foreign minister confirms iS out of EU for at least 5 years etc etc
SNP rep says he's bluffing
Who is your money on?
I hope Ewan Morrison's wrong... whether the vote goes yes or no it suggests there won't be a healthy atmosphere afterwards -
I would say that since the outcome of most UK general elections is determined in England then Yes the people of england have control over their own affairs. No individual can expect to always have the government they choose but a nation or a country should always have the government it elected by whatever democratic system is in place in that country.
[quote=big_n_daft said]Spanish foreign minister confirms iS out of EU for at least 5 years etc etc
Source as nothing via Google
I would say tha Binners and I have to accept that we will lose as many elections as we win [ though we probably consider Nu Labour as losing 2- 0 rather than 8-0 defeat with the Tories] . However it is a nation and you can take that to some degree.
I would like to think it will lead to less centralisation/more federalism in england but who knows
