Can you validate that claim of illegality?
Are you going to throw away your UK passport JY
Hopefully the Uk will unilaterally claim the place of my birth as UK land so I wont need to change.
you can't really argue it's not about the SNP
in that case you can argue it is about Cameron and a westminster elite as well.
IMHO is is bigger than both of those but there is some merit in both arguments.
Rockape63 - MemberUnbelievable tirade, surely that can't help their cause?
Course not- which is why the press are pretending it's important. Sillars' influence over the SNP and the campaign for independence ended 20 years ago, post-independence he'll have no more power to deliver on this statement than I will.
Essentially it's a story about press bias rather than the Yes campaign.
Can you validate that claim of illegality?
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/About/Government/concordats/Referendum-on-independence
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/41/contents
Have a read of both of those and then try to convince me that they haven't acted illegally.
The reality is very little has changed. Polling has been reasonably consistent - a close result most likely just in favour of NO - for many months. The rest is noise.
Illegality 😀
NW, the DO hardly struggled to cosy up to Sillars during the week and the attempt at distancing himself was hardly convincing yesterday now was it?
Possibly the illegal intervention of the UK government and their false promises this week and people falling for it.
Another demonstration of blind faith in the cybernat "infographics for the hard of thinking".
Nobody's done anything illegal. Have a looky here: [url= http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0045/00458330.pdf ]http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0045/00458330.pdf[/url]
Particularly point 13 of the main body, and Note 1 point 2
Have a read of that and then try to convince me that they have acted illegally.
It's amusing that in one breath you lot are shouting the house down about William Hague being extremely careful in saying that further Scottish devolutionary powers are not a [b]current[/b] UK government policy (i.e. within the rules of purdah, seeing as he was standing in for Cameron at PMQ - a [i]governmental[/i] duty), and in the next breath you're shouting down the house when on a [i]campaign platform[/i] (and thus within the rules of purdah) various MPs have mentioned further Scottish devolution.
It's almost as if you don't know what you're talking about.
That's a big swing, what's changed?
Including this poll, Survations last 3 have the no lead at 6% 6% and 7%
All after the last Salmond/Darling shout fest
T_F_O - now go back and see who that document applies to...
For purdah, the line between government and parties is very fine. But that cuts both ways, you can't complain about David Cameron, prime minister campaigning without complaining about Alex Salmond, first minister campaigning- both represent more than one entity.
It is difficult, when the prime minister of the UK goes to see business leaders face to face and says "I'd like you to do something", it's easy to see why people cry undue influence- he might be doing so in his role as party leader but it can't really be separeted from his position as prime minister. And equally easy to see why people question how genuine the business leaders' prompted responses are. The argument is that they're not saying anything they wouldn't have otherwise, but logically why would Cameron waste time asking for it if that were the case? So if nothing else there's reasonable cause for skepticism.
Possibly the illegal intervention of the UK government and their false promises this week and people falling for it.
The excuses are being set up nice and early I see....
These business people are all grown-ups. I'm sure if they disagreed with the Prime Minister they would say so. Any kind of business leader who feels unable to speak their mind would struggle to stay in their job for very long.
T_F_O - now go back and see who that document applies to...
In the Edinburgh Agreement, signed by Alex Salmond and David Cameron, the UK government agreed to abide by the same rules in the 28 days before polling.
It's almost as if you don't know what you're talking about.
oldnpastit - MemberThese business people are all grown-ups. I'm sure if they disagreed with the Prime Minister they would say so. Any kind of business leader who feels unable to speak their mind would struggle to stay in their job for very long.
Replace "speaking your mind" with "pissing off the prime minister, in person". Businesses like to remain on good terms with governments.
Do you have an Audi and an Orange 5 too mol?
Orange 5 yes, could probably get an Audi on the company car scheme if I wanted 🙂
So it's ok for DO to rally companies in support of Yes (and intimidate those that don't) but somehow that is not ok for the PM? How odd.
As above, you don't get to be a CEO by listening to MPs! They are there to be tolerated. CEOs are big boys and girls as others have mentioned and can think for themselves and in the interests of their customers, staff and shareholders.
molgrips - Member
Oh.. Wait.. Someone mention IT systems? Holy cow they are going to need a lot of those. I've changed my mind, vote yes, it'll keep me in business for life!
But first you must recant. Only 4 days left to do it.
Remember we have long memories.... 🙂
(Alternatively put in the best quote. Saving our pennies always works with us Scots).
teamhurtmore - MemberSo it's ok for DO to rally companies in support of Yes (and intimidate those that don't) but somehow that is not ok for the PM? How odd.
If Salmond's been breaking purdah in the same way that Cameron (IMO) has, I'd have a problem with that, certainly. But even then, the question of influence isn't the same, clearly the prime minister has far more influence over the environment businesses operate in than the first minister.
I don't know if you're intentionally misrepresenting people's concerns- of course businesses can make up their own minds, that's not the question. The question is entirely about the factors going into that decision.
But has anything illegal actually occurred? Are the police investigating?
BTW I went into town today. Could hardly move.
[url=
noisy buggers were excited about something,[/url] and blocking the street. It was just as bad in the other direction.
I think the Orange Rally may have settled it.
Any normal thinking undecided will have jumped to "Yes" after seeing those knuckle draggers.
Politicians serve us not the other way around. Most business leaders are angry about this campaign - the crap from yS and the lacklustre campaign from BT - and the CBI quotes 90% are NO. Of course after the suspicious rogue poll, there was an element of panic in the air this week (and why not? The 2/70 argument is valid).
Business leaders like anyone else are protecting their interests and it is clear what that means. They don't need CMD to tell them. It was mostly coming in the other direction. FFS pull your finger before chaos descends. That was certainly the message that I was giving them last weekend - as you can imagine the MPs (well the labour one) didn't appreciate it, the Tory was complacent. Hopeless the lot of them, sleepwalking into chaos.
The fact that AS claims that the businesses are bullying proves that they are in the right. The 3Bs tactic has now been fully exposed by its chronic overuse.
teamhurtmore - Member
...Most business leaders are angry about this campaign...
No wonder.
They can see that it's going to get much more difficult to buy policies that pour taxpayers money into their pockets.
Controlling the press, TV, and making large political donations is no longer a guarantee of getting what you want.
No one bloke is going to cut their tax bill - son of Thatcher brings a bonus - funny thing is COEs are smart enough to understand why that is BS. If you need to build up reserves to follow a sterlingisation policy, it's a bit tricky to start a tax war with rUK.
Don't forget the dirty diggers intervention this week. On to yS side, so the lessons from Leveson have not reached you yet?
Well, seem to be a few people in Glasgow who are keen to celebrate Britannia's rule tonight 😀
The ICM poll puts Yes on 49% No42% Dk9%..
Source Whatscotlandthinks
Does come with a caveat though.
Small(er) sample size?
Though not as small as some others
Who did the other poll out today?
http://news.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/opiniumobserver-scottish-referendum-poll
**** me, 4 polls today?
The winners in this referendum are the pollsters. And the sticker/badge manufacturers.
Maybe they should have had a second question on the ballot paper. Will the psephologists make more money than the lawyers? 🙂
Does John Curtice have a flat on pacific quay?
In other news I was chatting to two Spaniards in Pitlochry today. One wearing a Yes badge, one a No badge.
Can you guess the two different famous Spanish cities they came from?
Also in other news, considerably more overt no thanks / union jacks on display too. And curiously, I still thought there was more Yes stickers etc, but the fella I was working with (firm no voter) reckoned more no thanks.
Are you sure one of them wasnt a Catalan?
Hopefully the Uk will unilaterally claim the place of my birth as UK land so I wont need to change.
you're making fun of your opponents by saying that, but that is basically your woefully misconceived argument about the EU position of iScotland: [many] Scots are "EU citizens" therefore after independence Scotland is in the EU...
My view is that scotland, currently, is in the EU as it is part of the UK. During negotiations to join the EU it is in the EU but it does need to join as iS.
IMHO it will not have to join as a "new" member in the sense Turkey would have to as it is not "external" to the EU and its people are EU citizens.
I dont think discussing this again will lead to us agreeing and as the EU wont say anything neither of us can prove it one way or the other.
The SNP are basing the whole independence movement on a wish-list so why not do the same yourself.....
I dont think discussing this again will lead to us agreeing
Since when has that stopped us on this thread?
A certain ex STWer suggested that the issue with the ICM poll is more that it was an online poll rather than the small sample size, which seems a fair point.
The winners in this referendum are the pollsters. And the sticker/badge manufacturers.
Meanwhile the big surprise with mobilising business support it that AS hasn't managed to get the lawyers out to give their opinion on what the correct result is.
Are you sure one of them wasnt a Catalan?
Maybe Aye, maybe naw.
Although stating that would have been even more obvious than it already was. There was support for Yes with a couple if Asturians as well.
A certain ex STWer suggested that the issue with the ICM poll is more that it was an online poll rather than the small sample size, which seems a fair point.
For me the bigger concern is how those polled had been selected rather than the medium for gathering the opinions.
I haven't seen 'how' just yet so can't comment.
fasternotfatter - Member
The SNP are basing the whole independence movement on a wish-list so why not do the same yourself.....
Good point, and a fine argument for independence.
The great thing about compiling a wish list yourself is you can work at making most of it come true.
If you rely on someone else to do it, you have Buckley's chance of any of it coming true.
I wish I could eat what I like and never put on weight
I wish a 650b really did make the trails come alive
I wish Father Christmas was real
I wish Nessie would show herself
I wish the BOD contained facts
I wish it really was the fault of Westminster Tories
I wish the € would avoid wage depression, unemployment and social dislocation
So what's so great on a wish list of total nonsense? It just makes you look silly. No wonder so few refer to the folly that was the BoD. A good example of how iS would waste money on wish list bllx and fantasy under AS.
"As and independent country, We can work on turning this square into a circle.""No you can't Alex as it has four equal sides and four right angled corners. That's why it's a square."
Stop bullying me, it's not fair......
Mirages, mirages that disappear as quickly as the Saharan oasis.
I dont think discussing this again will lead to us agreeing and as the EU wont say anything neither of us can prove it one way or the other.
The EU have said something in reply to the The Scottish Government’s proposals for an independent Scotland: membership of the European;
As far as EU citizenship is concerned, this is not an autonomous status but is dependent
on national citizenship. In accordance with Article 20 of the Treaty on the Functioning of
the European Union (TFEU), only persons holding the nationality of a Member State are
EU citizens. EU citizenship is additional to and does not replace national citizenship.
When part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory.
[url= http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/CurrentCommittees/70496.aspx ]Source[/url]
Mere details, details...that is not what this is all about. 😀
I have never denied that if iS does not join the EU that its citizens wont be in the EU and the treaty wont apply. No one could deny this you need to be in it to be in it.
I have also not denied they need to reapply.
The fact is that when they are applying they will be in the EU and this is
1. Unique
2. Makes the negotiations easier and faster as they have "harmonised"
If I get it correctly KB , and others, say Scotland is not in the EU because only the UK is.
None of us disagree they need to join as iS
Will Scotland be able to apply for EU membership whilst still a part of the UK or will the EU demand waiting til after formal Independence?