The Americanisation of the BT campaign is probably a product of the Americanisation of the Labour central political machine
It was the senior Tory who was commenting and complaining about it, so not just a labour issue. The lab guy was more accepting though, true.
arguably the "yes" campaign is largely predicated as a "anti politics as they are now" essentially the same message that UKIP campaign on
You've been watching Nick Robinson on BBC news? He suggested something very similar, and commented that the people voting for that reason were very unpredictable!
And now we have the unedifying prospect of all three parties bending over backwards like bad parent stopping a spoilt brat from crying by giving into the demand for more sweets. The resulting vomit will be colourful and plentiful.
which I think is going to be counter productive because the narrative was lost 18 months ago when the opportunity to set a "yes" vote as a negative destructive activity
I was asked by 3 "yes" voters "what does England think of this" and spent five minutes explaining that England isn't an amorphous blob but a set of quite clear regional identities each of which will have their own take on the issue
You've been watching Nick Robinson on BBC news? He suggested something very similar, and commented that the people voting for that reason were very unpredictable!
probably, and I feel he is right, hence the disaster of the "no" campaign and their nit picking negative campaign rather than a positive one looking at what Scotland contributes to the Union and the Union to Scotland
Whatever the whys and wherefores and practicalities, the crux of it is that it's an opportunity to change things. The scots can either take that opportunity or stick with more of the same.
something needs to happen, this is something, therefore it needs to happen.
Alex Salmond is an even less convincing hopey-changey Barack Obama figure than Barack Obama was!
Quite KB, you don't hear so much YES WE CAN these days more WTF, this wasn't what we signed up for!
Quite KB, you don't hear so much YES WE CAN these days more WTF, this wasn't what we signed up for!
I was impressed by the former Westminister politician criticising the Westminister elite he was a member of and will be drawing his pension from in a few years
I suspect my "lets do it" was too cryptic - though I had posted that with the first two parts of the "haiku" earlier, so I thought somebody might get it.
8 days for THM to get ready for the vomiting 🙂
Whichever way the vote goes, I don't think I'd like to be a party hack type politician in Scotland. I've never seen so much widespread grass-roots activity before.
There's less tame sheep, and politicians are not going to get an easy ride if they don't deliver. So that's got to be good.
One consequence of a No vote may well be the replacement of Scotland's entire population of LibDem MPs and a considerable number of the Labour MPs replaced with SNP MPs. After all if 49% of the population has abandoned its usual voting pattern for independence, they'll probably keep voting for the party that supports it.
That could mean a substantial bloc of Scottish SNP MPs. If the next GE is like the last, then I can see some interesting permutations for coalitions.
Now, about that Lothian question?.... 🙂
what do we want?
aye!
when do we want it?
the noo!
epicyclo - Member
8 days for THM to get ready for the vomiting
It will take a bit longer than that to fully digest and regurgitate 😉
Och 😆
The more I read the comments on here the more it sounds like the basis of the yes vote is just a protest vote against the present state of the UK. Yes we are going through a bad patch at the moment but all this in fighting is going to do is more damage to the future of both the UK and Scotland. It will take even longer to recover, if ever.
The SNP is no different to UKIP, both nationalist parties based on fear and hatred, with charismatic leaders who promise a land of milk and honey. Please don't be taken in by it.
The SNP is no different to UKIP, both nationalist parties based on fear and hatred,
this is complete unmitigated bollocks.
We're not voting for the SNP. The ballot question is whether Scotland should be independent, that's it. Once we're independent we can elect anyone we want - it might be instructive to look at the makeup of previous Scottish parliaments (not this one, it's skewed by a protest vote for the SNP). We'll have a parliament of Labour, Tories, Lib Dem, SNP, SSP, Greens, etc.
For some people it might be a protest vote against the state of the UK - and that's a valid point of view, especially if you think the UK is on a path that's going to continue so just voting Labour won't help. For others (like me) it's not about the current UK government, it's about the next UK government and the ones after that, and about building a fairer society.
Oh, and getting rid of the WMDs - that's pretty important too.
about building a fairer society
So you're taking whatever's offered and just hoping that it's the right thing. Hmm ok 🙂
Radio Scotland this morning
Prime Minister David Cameron will make an impassioned plea for Scotland to stay in the union. Writing in this morning's Daily Mail..
Gaun Yersel' Davie - really don't get it do you?
o you're taking whatever's offered and just hoping that it's the right thing. Hmm ok
..as opposed to taking what we know to be unfair in the safe and secure knowledge that it will never change for the better? Hmmm ok 😕
No molgrips we're learning from the past and looking to shape our own future by taking control in our own hands and if the political parties don't match up we'll dump them at the next Scottish election.
The UK is in better shape than Spain, Italy, France, Portugal ... in fact the left leaning countries are in the worst shape as they have the most bloated debt burdens.
If people are voting to remove the political elite you are going to be very disappointed with what replaces Westminster. Politicians are politicians the world over.
An independent Scotland is going to find it much more difficult to support the needy than it seems to realise. I strongly suspect an iS will have a smaller welfare budget per head than does the UK.
this is complete unmitigated bollocks.
SNP is not a national party ok!
SNP loves Westnminster ok!
taking control in our own hands
Hardly. You'll still have parliametary democracy and politicans. Unless you think they'll be somehow different simply because they are Scottish?
about building a fairer society
So you're taking whatever's offered and just hoping that it's the right thing. Hmm ok
What's being offered is the ability to pick our own government. Whether we get the right thing is then up to the people who live here.
Perhaps the UK should just have EU[ another foreign country] appointed ones then as it wont be any different?
They never said they would replace parliamentary democracy just that it would be one decided by the voters of scotland rather than the voter of [ primarily] England.
our own government
Hmmmm....
'Us and Them' again.
@Ben I suppose I am just repeating the same thing but you'll be picking a government which has far less room for manouver. Also as I understand it you are living and working in the UK so you will still have "our" Government anyway.
Funny isn't it
Spend half the time complaining all politicians are the same, then spend the other half saying how vital it is that you're allowed to choose between them...
SNP is not a national party ok!
SNP - pro immigration, pro EU, left leaning, pro people who live in Scotland, where ever they are from.
UKIP - Anti immigration, anti eu, on the right, pro 'British' people (what ever they are?).
The question is, and one that I wish had been asked of Darling on the radio this morning, is why weren't these powers announced ages ago if they've been in the planning for so long? And why doesn't their sudden announcement a) break the rules of purdah and b) show that they are panicking and have been complacent and are only suggesting these powers now to prevent a yes vote?
probably, and I feel he is right, hence the disaster of the "no" campaign and their nit picking negative campaign rather than a positive one looking at what Scotland contributes to the Union and the Union to Scotland
Yup,and now it is too late they have changed tact so much that even they don't know what the hell it is they are trying to say.The campaign of the naw's has played right into the chippy Scots who remember the Fatcher years,who remember hating England. The project fear element has just reinforced old perceptions of being told what to do by the English Tory Government. Now for all that the many contributors on this thread put that down to being oversensitive...why didnt they (BT) work out that these folk could vote?
The latest reaction the the err...some...more powers...lastmin.com devo max offer should make THM's wee heart glow...It would seem we are with your pal McCrone on how we view the promises/chances of Scotland getting extra layers of devolved power. Christ,they can't even get a Scottish flag run up properly!
You also seem to be bearing a grudge based on the political systems and democracy of the early 18th century. I hope for your sake you can get over that.
He's also still bitter about the clearances and seems to think they were carried out by the nasty English colonial masters. Just seems a bit confused in general really.
What's being offered is the ability to pick our own government. Whether we get the right thing is then up to the people who live here.
You already get to pick your own government (and vote for a UK government). What you are angling for is to probably have less control over your own affairs (due to the CU issues) because of an emotion-based desire to feel 'independent'.
this is complete unmitigated bollocks.
SNP is not a national party ok!
SNP loves Westnminster ok!
UKIP is not a nationalist party; it is a xenophobic one.
The SNP isn't really a nationalist party either; it's a funny sort of nationalist party that makes such a point to denounce xenophobia and racism, and spends so much time talking about how Scotland should be just like other European countries.
The SNP's popularity is not driven by fear and hatred. it's the party of government that has done not a terrible job of public administration with the powers it has - certainly in comparison with Labour (trams, Scottish parliament) and the Tories before them. the SNP has been around in significant numbers for decades and has a developed political platform and an established ideology and party line.
UKIP is simply a protest party built around one man that has actively sought to escape any executive responsibility once elected by simply not showing up.
none of what you said was correct ie unmitigated bollocks...
The latest reaction the the err...some...more powers...lastmin.com devo max offer should make THM's wee heart glow
On the contrary, I think it is unedifying and unnecessary. They should lay the facts out bare, abandons the US style non-compete bllx and then let folk decide. At least we have the governor of the BOE talking straight sense yesterday.
Christ,they can't even get a Scottish flag run up properly!
Boris-biked past MoTransport this morning with large saltire flapping in the breeze. Forget independence, this is reverse colonisation and without a gun being fired! Pathetic - and these are the muppets that we want running things.
Ben, you should be precise about nukes. It's not paying for them rather than not having them hidden away in Scottish waters. It's important.
The main similarity between UKIP and SNP is (1) mainstream parties don't know how to engage with/against people who spout BS and won't debate facts and (2) populism will swallow anything. Good job they don't promise a cheque in the post too.
Oh, and getting rid of the WMDs - that's pretty important too.
Is that a good idea as Putin gets particularly belligerent and China starts to throw its weight around a little more as it gets richer?
@ Molgrips its not to do with them being Scottish it is to with the people of Scotland being able to elect those who govern Scotland which they dont at the moment. Further to that there is an energised and politicised mass movement in Scotland now which I believe will diminish but not disappear after the referendum.
I have also said before that we need more participatory politics and much more accessible local politics.
I've just had a chat with a Scotsman I work with who convinced me that voting yes is a good move. His arguement went like this
Westminster Politicians - Incompetent fools
EU Politicians - Incompetent fools
Scottish Politicains - Incompetent Fools
But we have the chance to get rid of two sets of fools in one go and be left with our fools who we should be able to manage more effectively.
'Us and Them' again.
Yes, Us as in the people who live in Scotland - yet again, it's civic nationalism not ethnic nationalism.
Spend half the time complaining all politicians are the same, then spend the other half saying how vital it is that you're allowed to choose between them...
All Westminster politicians are the same, because the Westminster system produces that. A more proportional, fairer electoral system would produce politicians who are very different - as they are in Scotland.
Ben, you should be precise about nukes. It's not paying for them rather than not having them hidden away in Scottish waters. It's important.
To be precise, not having them is a moral issue. It's an over-riding moral issue for me. Not having to pay for them is a bonus, but even if getting rid of them didn't save us a penny, even if we had to spend £100bn over 30 years on some other white elephant, it'd still be worth it to get rid of them.
Possessing WMDs is just wrong. Full stop.
Is that a good idea as Putin gets particularly belligerent and China starts to throw its weight around a little more as it gets richer?
WMDs don't keep us safe from Russia and China, they just make us a target.
Molgrips its not to do with them being Scottish it is to with the people of Scotland
Lol!
As it stands, you are a UK citizen, and you get to elect a UK government just like everyone else.
@ Molgrips its not to do with them being Scottish it is to with the people of Scotland being able to elect those who govern Scotland which they dont at the moment.
What [i]does[/i] the Scottish Parliament do then? And I thought people in Scotland could vote for the government in the UK elections too.
You currently have more democratic power than anyone else in the UK.
A more proportional, fairer electoral system would produce politicians who are very different - as they are in Scotland.
Like Alex Salmond? Hmm....
[img] 
[/img]
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-foreign-investors-desert-british-economy-amid-fears-of-yes-vote-9720967.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-foreign-investors-desert-british-economy-amid-fears-of-yes-vote-9720967.html[/url]
Top photo of this article. Can anyone spot a truly brilliant sign in the crowd?
Like Alex Salmond? Hmm....
Yes. Like him or not, he's run rings around every Westminster politician from the start. However a SNP majority in the Scottish parliament is an aberration - we're most likely to have coalitions with MSPs from lots of different parties.
[i]WMDs don't keep us safe from Russia and China, they just make us a target.[/i]
How do you work that out? the whole point of Trident is that it's invisible.
Also, can someone enlighten me what the 'Fairer Society' is all about? What does that actually mean?
Meanwhile:
[img] 
[/img]
So is this (and it's just down the road from a synagogue) worse than an egg?
How do you work that out? the whole point of Trident is that it's invisible.
Erm, Faslane? Coulport? The submarines may be invisible (you hope, if the Russians don't detect the one at-sea sub we've got), but the on-shore facilities that support the sub are very visible and an obvious target.
The one at-sea sub doesn't have enough nukes to deal an overwhelming counterstrike or counterforce blow, all it can do is make the Russians or Chinese very, very angry.
Also, can someone enlighten me what the 'Fairer Society' is all about? What does that actually mean?
It's a society where this kind of thing cannot happen:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/david-clapson-benefit-sanctions-death-government-policies
It's a society where this kind of thing cannot happen:
Not answering the question, really.
Erm, Faslane? Coulport? The submarines may be invisible (you hope, if the Russians don't detect the one at-sea sub we've got), but the on-shore facilities that support the sub are very visible and an obvious target.The one at-sea sub doesn't have enough nukes to deal an overwhelming counterstrike or counterforce blow, all it can do is make the Russians or Chinese very, very angry.
Ben - You really don't get it. Again.
You don't understand the power of even one Trident sub.
You don't understand how a strategic deterrent works.
You don't understand that if required all 4 subs could be at sea on patrol very quickly.
You don't understand how the UK and US attack subs are way ahead of the Russians.
One sub could easily destroy Moscow, St Petersberg and another dozen principal cities. What would be left?
The UK disarmed in the 1930's. Never again.