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Fluctuation oil revenues eh?
Glory be!
Wouldn't want to hedge your economy on that, would you?
Wouldn't want to hedge your economy on that, would you?
We don't, but even if we did this is again why an oil fund is a good idea. As a percentage, Norway gets twice as much from oil as Scotland would, and they manage the fluctuations okay.
How are you going to build up an oil fund while you're running a £12 billion deficit?
You do understand that the word fluctuation indicates that things go up as well as down.ninfan - Member
Fluctuation oil revenues eh?
It's a bit disingenuous to be talking about the lows of one year when you should be talking about the median revenue over a number.
Oh but I forgot all this financial stuff is far too difficult to understand! 😆
How are you going to build up an oil fund while you're running a £12 billion deficit?
Same way it's possible to have a savings account and a mortgage at the same time.
(yeah, I know, massive oversimplification)
Wouldn't the predicted revenues into the future be more relevant?
it's possible to have a savings account and a mortgage at the same time.
options:
i) reduce the mortgage
ii) keep money in a savings account
you go and work it out and see which option makes long term financial sense...
When trying to highlight a historical dip in tax revenue(which is what the no camp is trying to do), then no.ninfan - Member
Wouldn't the predicted revenues into the future be more relevant?
If the tories stay in charge, they probably will, problem then comes that the surplus will get turned in to more tax breaks and divvied up amoung "friends". Rather than put to good use.
Remind us which party last delivered a budget surplus?
You do realise why it's important to eliminate the deficit don't you? It's not tax breaks, there is a rather bigger iceberg out there....
And you need to build up reserves as you establish your own central bank - good job money grows in trees in yS fantasy land.
I'm not disagreeing that it's sensible to reduce the deficit.teamhurtmore - Member
If the tories stay in charge, they probably will, problem then comes that the surplus will get turned in to more tax breaks and divvied up amoung "friends". Rather than put to good use.
Remind us which party last delivered a budget surplus?You do realise why it's important to eliminate the deficit don't you? It's not tax breaks, there is a rather bigger iceberg out there....
- If the oil is running out, why are the oil companies spending record amounts on new equipment?
good lord man at least try to engage your brain, a schoolkid could answer that.
Good job that you are not voting for people who promise to cut taxes, raise spending and forget about unfunded liabilities then - oh, and want to joinable club that has certain entry requirements.
No surprise that the SNP do many of the things that Tories do - they just pretend otherwise. To repeat, the reality will be massively different from the utopian rhetoric - not surprising then that those who are voting NO come from a certain profile.
Salmond was in my home town today. I ended up going down and turning my back to him. Heard him at one stage over my shoulder shaking hands and talking with the people either side of me.
Never done anything like this before. I did have a laugh with one yes supporter. He asked if I was making a protest, I nodded. I liked his reply. He said "Well at least I noticed" I smiled back and thanked him.
good lord man at least try to engage your brain, a schoolkid could answer that.
Could the schoolkid do it without being patronising? Of course they're doing it because it's becoming more difficult to extract the reserves that are left - but they think it's worth the investment.
Salmond still confused about the pound today, days after admitting that the currency is not an asset he is spouting the "it's our pound" nonsense again.
The man has no shame.
Yet again, you seem unable to understand that a referendum is not an election.teamhurtmore - Member
Good job that you are not voting for people who promise to cut taxes, raise spending and forget about unfunded liabilities then - oh, and want to joinable club that has certain entry requirements.No surprise that the SNP do many of the things that Tories do - they just pretend otherwise. To repeat, the reality will be massively different from the utopian rhetoric - not surprising then that those who are voting NO come from a certain profile.
And they expect the tax incentives to follow which were proposed by the Oil & Gas Commission. So business takes more risk to achieve the harder to get supplies. And government collects less tax. So that's less tax on reducing supplies. Now, how do the numbers add up again?Of course they're doing it because it's becoming more difficult to extract the reserves that are left - but they think it's worth the investment.
You sound very staunch. Bet the boys in yer ludge will enjoy that story! 😆athgray - Member
Salmond was in my home town today. I ended up going down and turning my back to him. Heard him at one stage over my shoulder shaking hands and talking with the people either side of me.Never done anything like this before. I did have a laugh with one yes supporter. He asked if I was making a protest, I nodded. I liked his reply. He said "Well at least I noticed" I smiled back and thanked him.
Yet again, you seem unable to understand that a referendum is not an election.
How come? I am just able to discern BS, and pretty obvious BS at that, from fact. It helps in both cases. The poor folk of Europe made your error.
So it's a one-year fluctuation, and a lot of it is because the oil companies are investing in new equipment.
Shame then that the oil revenues are going to be even lower this year
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/12/scotland-deficit-12bn-alex-salmond-damages-case-independence-economy-oil-revenues-fall
Because, every argument you make is talking about SNP policy. They may or may not be the first government of Scotland.teamhurtmore - Member
How come? I am just able to discern BS, and pretty obvious BS at that, from fact. It helps in both cases. The poor folk of Europe made your error.
The debate doesn't end and will widen after 19th September.
We understand that oil is a finite resource.aracer - Member
So it's a one-year fluctuation, and a lot of it is because the oil companies are investing in new equipment.
Shame then that the oil revenues are going to be even lower this year
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/12/scotland-deficit-12bn-alex-salmond-damages-case-independence-economy-oil-revenues-fall
Because, every argument you make is talking about SNP policy.
Well I asked a few pages ago what the alternative policies were for iS and was met with deafening silence. Possibly because actually the SNP do a reasonable job of working with all the financial problems which will arise from independence and there isn't actually a better way to do things and balance the books.
We understand that oil is a finite resource.
Do you? Lots of claims that there won't be a problem despite the reliance of Scotland's economy on oil. Whoops, I forget, the numbers aren't important.
So good, we just put the book of dreams in the bin with the rest of the yS propaganda. I thought all the tax players money spent on this BS would mean that is worth looking at. Obviously not.....
I am glad that we agree that SNP garbage is just that.
Now can you point me in the direction of the non-SNP made cases please
For you 2 the argument ends on the 19th of september, for us up here it doesn't. After that the campaign for government begins.aracer - Member
Because, every argument you make is talking about SNP policy.
Well I asked a few pages ago what the alternative policies were for iS and was met with deafening silence. Possibly because actually the SNP do a reasonable job of working with all the financial problems which will arise from independence and there isn't actually a better way to do things and balance the books.POSTED 1 MINUTE AGO # REPORT-POST
teamhurtmore - Member
So good, we just put the book of dreams in the bin with the rest of the yS propaganda. I thought all the tax players money spent on this BS would mean that is worth looking at. Obviously not.....I am glad that SNP garbage is just that.
Now can you point me in the direction of the non-SNP made cases please
Ok, so what information are you using (other than SNP) to guide you in the post 19th scenario?
You do appreciate that the idea that this ends in the 18th is total bllx especially in the case of YES. It will create considerable and unnecessary uncertainty. And despite AS comments, unlikely to be harmonious discussions. The gloves really will come off at that point. Good job he has slimmed down in preparation. Now at fighting weight (or hopefully retirement weight). 😳
Even a NO, AS contempt has not gone unnoticed. And no, that is not a threat, it's just an observation. Proposing lose-lose situations rarely wins you friends.
The love is strong on this topic 😉
The information required for a yes vote is simply enough confidence that Scotland can go it alone. The message is clear that we can. (Only question remain is if enough people have the balls to follow that through)teamhurtmore - Member
Ok, so what information are you using (other than SNP) to guide you in the post 19th scenario?You do appreciate that the idea that this ends in the 18th is total bllx especially in the case of YES. It will create considerable and unnecessary uncertainty. And despite AS comments, unlikely to be harmonious discussions. The gloves really will come off at that point. Good job he has slimmed down in preparation. Now at fighting weight (or hopefully retirement weight).
Even a NO, AS contempt has not gone unnoticed. And no, that is not a threat, it's just an observation. Proposing lose-lose situations rarely wins you friends.
If it's a yes vote, I think we are all aware that rUK will be vindictive. (That's not really an endearing attribute likely to make us stay.)
The love is so strong that we want you all *in our team!!
Well, obviously there are some exception outside STW but they dont need to be mentioned. Nicola will have plans for substituting him herself. Next manager on Man U or peace envoy?
Yes, we do, we also understand that 20 years(worst case scenario for the oil running out) is a long time in economic terms. And that you can do alot of diversification to an economy in the mean time making it less reliant on oil.aracer - Member
We understand that oil is a finite resource.
Do you? Lots of claims that there won't be a problem despite the reliance of Scotland's economy on oil. Whoops, I forget, the numbers aren't important.
Hell here's a revolutionary idea, spend some of the oil wealth on diversification rather than tax breaks.
ninfan - Member
...Scotland remains a subsidy junkie (so does England, but its right wing nutters like me that would like to see that changed rather than continue like the utopians)
I must be a right wing nutter too then seeing as I believe debt should only be used for productive purposes and not to fund consumption. It's basic good housekeeping. Hey Ninfan and I agree on something!
Oh, and I've been called a Socialist and a Nationalist too. Mmmm, right wing nutter, nationalist and socialist, I've got a brown shirt somewhere. Should I be trimming my moustache and practising strange marches?
Or burning books - but hardly anyone buys them these days.
I know! I'll go around deleting books on people's Kindles. 🙂
(Sorry, crap humour - just been out for a ride and been amusing myself thinking of some of the more interesting assertions on this thread. Doesn't sound so funny when I'm off the bike.)
Hell here's a revolutionary idea, spend some of the oil wealth on diversification rather than tax breaks.
Excuse what may sound a rude question (it isn't meant to be) but do you really think that is how oil has been spent ie, just on tax breaks? I'm intrigued.
Oh and you do know that the fiscal commission has been clear that NS Oil revenues will be needed to fund public services and reduce borrowing. It's lovely to talk about an oil fund but you do have to start running a surplus first. And remind me how often and how consistently Scotland has managed that?
more or less, aye.teamhurtmore - Member
Hell here's a revolutionary idea, spend some of the oil wealth on diversification rather than tax breaks.
Excuse what may sound a rude question (it isn't meant to be) but do you really think that is how oil has been spent ie, just on tax breaks? I'm intrigued.
So it turns out that STV repeatedly tried to get Cameron to participate in a debate programme with undecided voters - Cameron refused to do a full programme and wanted to dictate the terms of the debate. Then he accused STV of "running away":
I'm not sure it's a brilliant strategy to annoy one of the two main Scottish broadcasters 2 weeks before the referendum 😉
Excuse what may sound a rude question (it isn't meant to be) but do you really think that is how oil has been spent ie, just on tax breaks? I'm intrigued.
It wasn't just spent on tax breaks - a lot of it went on unemployment benefits for all the people put out of work when the mines closed, when the shipyards closed, when the steel plants closed, when the factories closed,...
North Seal Oil revenues were spent pro-rata on everything.
For you 2 the argument ends on the 19th of september, for us up here it doesn't. After that the campaign for government begins.
@seosam - I don't agree, if Scotland votes Yes the arguments will intensify for "us" from the day of the vote until the exit is concluded in 2016 or most likely beyond. I expect the issue will be a factor in the 2015 election with parties setting out in their manifestos how they will handle Scotland's exit.
I am afraid in the the event of a Yes vote this is going to be an ongoing PITA for 2-3 years.
I know. I was meaning the discussion about the make up of the Scottish government ends for you and begins for us in earnest.
I'm well aware an IS has further implications out with scotlans borders. Beyond the negotiations that's not really my concern until interests merge.
North Seal Oil revenues were spent pro-rata on everything.
Are those North Grey Seals or North Harbour Seals? 😀
Hell here's a revolutionary idea, spend some of the oil wealth ondiversification rather than tax breaks.
If only [s]the SNP[/s] any of the major parties agreed with you. Sadly they feel they need that money to balance the books. Sadly they're right - I know you don't like numbers but the reason for that is in any of the recently posted links about Scotland's balance of payments, and they're not difficult numbers.
Though it appears its likely to be even more impossible to get you to take this in than anybody else, given your recent posts showing that you're totally reliant on unspecified dreams for making your choice.
I was meaning the discussion about the make up of the Scottish government ends for you and begins for us in earnest.
When are the next elections due ? I would imagine as AS if First Minister he's not going to jeopardise that position by calling an election, he's going to focus on positioning himself as Scotland's champion in the negotiations and try and ensure all the credit goes to the SNP. I suspect discussions as to the make up of Scotland's government won't take place until after independence is completed. No ?
Oil was spent on a wide provision of public services across the UK. It's very misleading to even try to suggest that it just went into tax cuts.
If you want to get cross though think about public sector pensions - you know where all that money went because all parties preferred dodgy accounting to building up pension assets. No surprise that no one has mentioned that even though the DO present fairy tales on the future of pensions.
Sorting out the buggers muddle that is pensions will take an age alone.
I get the numbers, they aren't difficult. Scotland will start with a deficit and debt. Beyond that you are just speculating and talking as much fantasy as anyone.aracer - Member
Hell here's a revolutionary idea, spend some of the oil wealth ondiversification rather than breaks.
If only the SNP any of the major parties agreed with you. Sadly they feel they need that money to balance the books. Sadly they're right - I know you don't like numbers but the reason for that is in any of the recently posted links about Scotland's balance of payments, and they're not difficult numbers.Though it appears its likely to be even more impossible to get you to take this in than anybody else, given your recent posts showing that you're totally reliant on unspecified dreams for making your choice.
You seem to have a belief that the people of Scotland can't manage. I do, I also have a further belief that the people of Scotland will able to build a society that reflect the peoples wishes.
The specifics are irrelevant to me until campaigning begins, and the real political make up of Scotland starts to show itself. We cannot know the whole picture when half the parties refuse to put forward a vision for an independent Scotland.
Get the no side to present a vision. Along with other parties that may form and then we can have a balanced discussion.
Until then its just SNP bashing, which I don't really disagree with. But you are wanting to have a discussion that we can't have until we've decided there will be an independent Scotland.
a lot of it went on unemployment benefits for all the people put out of work when the loss making mines closed, when the loss making shipyards closed, when the loss making steel plants closed, when the loss making factories closed,...
FTFY,HTH!
Very few people are saying Scotland can't manage, that's clearly absurd although there will be major ST disruption. The question is far more (1) what structure in in Scotland's best interests and (2) how much of the yS proposals are BS. The answers to both are very easy. NO (ie vote NO), MOST.
A vision is easy - a very successful union works despite all the negativity (see what I did there?). The fact that yS want a CU is the clearest example of the fact that everyone knows this. The structures are in place combined with relatively high levels of devolved power (a lot still unused). Scotland with a NO vote will be in one of the best placed positions anywhere in the UK (time for some honesty.) And you want to throw that all in for a risky vanity project for the DO.
Sorry, but there are also some truisms. We have all leveraged out futures to the hilt. Borrowing means bringing consumption forward and delaying payment. The financial crisis was the peak of that extended process of an economic mirage based largely on leverage (debt). At some stage, that pattern has to be reversed (that time is now) and there is bugger all that any politician can do about that other than default!! But we are not Argentina!
The yS vision is a pipe dream. The same challenges face us all in the developed world. The best structure in which to face those challenges is the wider UK. That offers the best prospects for all. It really is very simple.