[Closed] Orlando shootings, 20 shot

I believe the record for an SMLE bolt action is 38 aimed rounds in a minute, at 300 yards

Getting everyone to be nice to each other is a fine sentiment and a good idea to strive for but I see nothing wrong with banning the obscenely lethal guns that are readily available in the meantime.

On the shooter himself, it sounds like he was a complete dreamer, a Walter Mitty type who was claiming links to al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, IS and probably any number of groups who are opposed to one another. On that note you can probably discount directly linked terrorism.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/14/orlando-gunman-was-a-regular-at-lgbt-nightclub-pulse-before-atta/ ]He was also, reportedly, a regular at the club and used gay dating apps.[/url]

That doesn't suit the "terrorist" narrative quite so well either.

It does frequently seem that those who commit the worst attacks on homosexuality, whether through violence or politicians etc making verbal attacks, are hiding an inner turmoil.

He was also, reportedly, a regular at the club and used gay dating apps.

That doesn't suit the "terrorist" narrative quite so well either.

It does however, kind of fit the narrative of the psychological schism that happens when deeply-conservative religious beliefs conflict with other feelings such as homosexuality.

Guns and specifically high ammo capacity, <edited for ninfan> high rounds per minute guns make it too easy for ordinary people to kill other people.

The thing is, it's so easy to make a high capacity magazine as you can simply weld two together and play around with the internals to get one.

Banning detachable magazines might work I guess. But anyway, shotguns are just as effective, if the shooter was carrying one...I guess someone could have overpowered him more easily...but then he might have just hacked the barrels down and carried two.

I'm glad I don't live in the states.

It does however, kind of fit the narrative of the psychological schism that happens when deeply-conservative religious beliefs conflict with other feelings such as homosexuality.

... conveniently.

You can dress it up how you like to suit various terror / religion / homosexuality sub-plots, but the fact is, he had mental health issues. Anything else is salad dressing.

... conveniently.

You can dress it up how you like to suit various terror / religion / homosexuality sub-plots, but the fact is, he had mental health issues. Anything else is salad dressing.

You think that the feelings of shame that can come with these things, especially if you have ties to a local muslim community that might ostracise you....would not factor in at all?

I knew a few people who really deteriorated because of how their parents treated them after they came out.

The fact that up until recently, they have been ostracised by most if not all of society, is a sad indictment of humanity.

shotguns are just as effective

You think that the feelings of shame that can come with these things, especially if you have ties to a local muslim community that might ostracise you....would not factor in at all?

I knew a few people who really deteriorated because of how their parents treated them after they came out.

Potentially, yes. But to say that's causal is pure speculation.

He was a nutcase, that was the cause; his family and his ex both said he wasn't particularly religious, yet he pledged allegiance to everyone from ISIS to Captain Pugwash before he went a-shooting.

simply weld two together and play around with the internals to get one.

You think that the feelings of shame that can come with these things, especially if you have ties to a local muslim community that might ostracise you....would not factor in at all?

It might be a factor.

But if he had the same issue because he was from some other predominantly anti-gay community where he might be ostracised (e.g. Catholic, baptist, Russian, African etc) then I doubt the media would be so quick to call it terrorism, because it wouldn't suit the narrative.

Which is my point about the James Howell story mentioned earlier.

simply huh? what percentage of gun nuts can do it? Is it similar to the number of STWers who could build a useable wheel?
Besides, with sufficient skill and access to a workshop an enthusiast could probably build an entire gun, it's the bought from a store aspect that is most worrying.

That's a lot harder, mags are simple collections of folded metal and springs.

Also, I can build a wheel 😛

But if he had the same issue because he was from some other predominantly anti-gay community where he might be ostracised (e.g. Catholic, baptist, Russian, African etc) then I doubt the media would be so quick to call it terrorism, because it wouldn't suit the narrative.

Which is my point about the James Howell story mentioned earlier.

Good point, I did mention that I thought that it was unfortunate that it was being linked to IS - when really, these people are mentally unstable.

Junkyard

shotguns are just as effective

hence why all armies are tooled up with shotguns and not assault rifles

How many times....armies use rifles for the type of range they like to engage at and shotguns for up close stuff. Technically speaking.

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GrahamS
It might be a factor.

But if he had the same issue because he was from some other predominantly anti-gay community where he might be ostracised (e.g. Catholic, baptist, Russian, African etc) then I doubt the media would be so quick to call it terrorism, because it wouldn't suit the narrative.

It can be a hate crime against gays, a gun control issue, and islamism or terrorism if you prefer. I don't believe it's black and white, or easy to put in a box.

His father has connections with the Taliban and declared himself leader of Afghanistan (the Taliban punishment for sodomy is death btw). He had been flagged by the FBI twice, once for being in contact with a suicide bomber. He had travelled to Saudi Arabia twice. His wife said he was unstable but also said he kept to his religion.

an enthusiast could probably build an entire gun, it's the bought from a store aspect that is most worrying.

Exactly.

A decent machinist could probably knock up an automatic weapon in their workshop in the UK.

That doesn't mean we should sell guns in ASDA.

That is a lot harder to do though, I mean loads harder especially if you want to make it semi-automatic. Then the gunpowder is hard to get here and relatively hard to make, doubt that will ever be the case in the states.

They should probably just do away with detachable mags altogether.

hence why all armies are tooled up with shotguns and not assault rifles

They don't use them as much these days for close work, simply because they can't defeat body armour.

Not sure people are going to be wearing body armour in a gay club.

Is the shooter a closet gay struggling with his own identity?

Is the shooter a closet gay struggling with his own identity?

From the reports, that would certainly appear to be the case. If he wasn't, then he was doing an awful lot of research into the subject

Mrs Binners has done a lot of work with LGB charities, and they do have a lot of Muslim men coming to them, as they're having a hell of a time of trying to balance the contradiction between knowing they're gay, yet their religion absolutely forbids it. Must be a bloody nightmare. And for someone who clearly had mental health issues to start with...?

But don't lets detract this lot from thwapping away over their gun porn, by raising a proper issue. They're clearly enjoying themselves

How many times.... armies use rifles for the type of range they like to engage at and shotguns for up close stuff. Technically speaking.

How many times indeed. Whether armies do or don't use [s]assault rifles[/s] semi-automatic weaponry, shotguns, napalm, WsMD, harsh language or blancmange cannons is irrelevant. Armies generally aren't tasked with walking into a large room and killing as many unarmed people as possible. You might as well compare the situation to a footballer's choice of football.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/13/shooter-used-to-visit-orlando-gay-club-use-gay-dating-apps/

Binners, some people shoot for sport - so of course, when these things happen, they are going to discuss gun control.

Mrs Binners has done a lot of work with LGB charities, and they have a lot of Muslim men having a hell of a time of trying to balance the contradiction between knowing they're gay, yet their religion absolutely forbids it. Must be a bloody nightmare.

Huh, well it's great to know there are charities dealing with the issue. She should be proud of the work she does!

Is the shooter a closet gay struggling with his own identity

He'd reportedly been a regular in there for at least three years. Either he was a closet gayer or he was doing some pretty extensive reconnaissance prior to the the attack.

It really is a very widespread problem Tom. Its difficult enough for a lot of younger blokes, coming out. But can you imagine if your religion means you'd be completely ostracised (at best)?

There are an awful lot of people leading double lives.

Not that we should be too smug. It wasn't that long ago we were still jailing people for it in this (christian-lite) country too.

Not that we should be too smug. It wasn't that long ago we were still jailing people for it in this (christian-lite) country too.

+1

Though a tiny part of me thinks that some frat boy in the CIA sat down with a shit eating grin and thought "lets make this guy appear to be gay to annoy the muslim world/ISIS".

binners

Not that we should be too smug. It wasn't that long ago we were still jailing people for it in this (christian-lite) country too.

It's been a while since anyone was executed for being gay in Britain though. Unlike some other parts of the world.

It's been a while since anyone was executed for being gay in Britain though.

I keep seeing this getting posted by gun nuts on FB 😯

I stand behind you in line at the grocery store with a smile on my face... And a gun under my shirt and you are none the wiser. I am safer for having it, but judging by your lack of self protection I can determine that you are complacent with the fallacy that the cops will save you, or you are blind to the dangers of the world around you, or you are a pacifist, or worse yet, you are one of the many self righteous jerks who seeks to strip me of my right to self defense, any of which means you are only safer next to me once I determine that me and those in my party are safe first, and until that time you are on your own. Rest assured that if a lunatic walks into the grocery store and pulls out a rifle, dependent upon the type and caliber of the ammunition they use, you have put yourself into a position as a meat shield to slow down or even stop the hail of bullets flying our way, giving me the precious little time needed to present my gun and return fire. If you are lucky, you won't be hit by the assailant's sporadic gunfire, but if you are wounded you will have to wait until any injuries to myself or my family or friends are tended to first before I turn my attention to you. I may help you, but only after I have tended to those I am actually charged with protecting first, so remember, you played the odds and lost and the only person who can truly protect you with dedicated interest is yourself, and you should have carried your own damn gun.

Folks, you have no obligation to play hero for anyone else who is unwilling to defend themselves, your only obligation is to yourself and your family and friends. This BS story going around only serves to cement the mentality that in a time of crisis others will step in to save you, and that is what got us to where we are in the first place.

I stand behind you in line at the grocery store with a smile on my face...

Hmm.

No blood
Bystanders appear unfazed by it all

Looks bollocks

I was thinking that.

His dad is now saying he has no problem with 2 men kissing, yet allowed his son to harbour feelings for men and then to mass kill them, what must have gone on behind closed doors in that family.

Admiral Duncan pub in london was a targeted attack as well against a certain part of society.

I like the way he lies down slowly in that video and no knock back.

With reference to the whole gun thing, I've just watched the Black Power documentary on BBC1. Just watch it! It's a great insight into the whole completely *ed up state of race relations in the US ( and goes some way to explaining Trump) but what is absolutely staggering is watching a large group of people walking through a town centre all openly, and legally carrying assault rifles. With the police looking on, also armed to the teeth.

I never ever want to live in a society that is so *ed up that that is even vaguely possible! I can't even begin to contemplate why anyone would!

Insane!! Absolutely, utterly and completely insane!!!

Looks real to me. (Gasping for air, flailing, become less coordinated). Not nice. Most likely fatal.

binners - Member
With reference to the whole gun thing, I've just watched the Black Power documentary on BBC1. Just watch it! It's a great insight into the whole completely *ed up state of race relations in the US ( and goes some way to explaining Trump) but what is absolutely staggering is watching a large group of people walking through a town centre all carrying assault rifles

I never ever want to live in a society that is so *ed up that that is even vaguely possible!

Just watching it now. What a mess.

Assault rifles are select fire in that they can fire fully automatic, 1 pull on trigger and gun carries on firing. Rifles carried and used are semi automatic, 1 pull on trigger for ever shot fired. It is amazing that so many people do not know the difference. Assault rifles are not available over the counter.

Oh good.... We're back to gun porn again. Hurray!

It is amazing that so many people do not know the difference.

Have you not spent much time living off rats in Idaho then JY? Most of this lot have been dug in in a ditch in Helmand Province, drinking their own piss for the last 2 years. Luckily there's a good 4G connection out there.

Thats not gun porn!

here's my club chairmans cannon

😆

Is it really amazing we are not all guns experts on this largely UK based MTB forum ...you sure?

Well there are other cycling forums where people take a keener interest.

[url= http://www.cyclingforums.com/threads/how-many-of-you-carry-a-gun-as-part-of-your-cycling-equipment.132888/ ]How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?[/url]

That hot topic rambled on for nearly 12 years.

Is it really amazing we are not all guns experts on this largely UK based MTB forum ...you sure?

I think it was a fair point. If you're going to take such lengths to debate something you should probably make sure what it is you're debating first right?

As for the shotguns vs "assault rifles" problem; who's counting? Unless you are, or are in the company of, either Deadpool or Sterling Archer you had better be damn sure that clip is empty AND they aren't carrying another weapon.

I love the third reply in that forum, in response to being asked whether anyone else carries a gun...

The temptation to use one on morons would be too great. By the time I find a club or big rock they have usually escaped.

Assault rifles are not available over the counter.

They are but have some restrictions. It is amazing you didn't know that.

Assault rifles are not available over the counter.

Perhaps not available outside of the military would be a good start...

I don't think they have reached "peak gun" in the US yet - but the way that they are going, it's not going to be long before they reach a tipping-point where everyone is so terrified of each other, they're gonna "draw" at the slightest provocation.

If I was allowed to carry a gun, I'd probably have shot several of my co-workers on the first day

batfink

If I was allowed to carry a gun, I'd probably have shot several of my co-workers on the first day

But they'd be packing too.