I know the kind of roundaboout you mean, there is one I use all the time on the way into Edinburgh, it's too small for the number of exits, 40mph zone but on/offramps to motorway. If you have to stop is very hard to get back in the traffic flow. Takes judgement.
But anyways, you never enter a roundabout if somebody is on it sorry, if more people observed that rule things might flow smoother, although I am sure somebody will come along with a 500 word post including quotes from both the Highway Code and Beowulf to prove me wrong !
not sure it really matters who was wrong or right, I think you know what to do in the future though. THINK BIKE!
Oh really?
Let's have a link to this r'about then...
Lets have a look then Moley!
😆
Was the OP in the:
Left turn lane
Right turn lane
My turn lane
...?
Let's have a link to this r'about then..
Bear in mind it's a pretty wide-angle lens, in real life it's a lot closer than that.
Everyone has to floor it to get out of their junctions, and they usually haven't got the self control to slow down again so it ends up a constant stream of cars pouring around at 30mph. If people slowed down a smidge there'd be room for everyone to get out no trouble.
Sorry OP is in wrong, you entered the roundabout when other users were using it. The fact the biker is in a middle lane (not that this exists on that roundabout) is irrelevant. IF you could see the vehicles signalling to pull off (like the car was doing) then entering the roundabout would have been seen as OK (technically not OK but you get my drift), as it was you saw a MC on the roundabout with unknown intention and still proceeded to enter.
tis life, we all make mistakes, but i'm sure you have learnt a lesson.
Very few rounabouts have lanes on - they are assumed. Entries and exits however do, and these are generally in accordance with the number of exists. RB's (with 4 exits) entry with 3 lanes makes these moanouvers a lot more simple. 1st exit = left lane, 2nd exit = middle, 3rd and 4th = right lane. Those where only 2 entry lanes exist pose more of a thoughtful approach and, as RB's are not all the same a consider approach has to be given, then the rule of "do not enter the RB whilst others are using it, or your exit is clear, exists!
it's absolutely chockerblock with traffic in that link molgrips, I can see why it's so difficult to pull out.
Sui - on big roundabouts if you waited for the roundabout to be completely clear before pulling out in rushhour you'd be there till 7pm.
molgrips - as soon as you described that roundabout it sounded like gabalfa to me.. can be a nightmare at times!
Thank you! See, it's not just me!
And to top it all, at certain times of the year the sun is shining right in your face as you come out of one of the roads so you can't see anything at all in front of you. According to the police they've had to replace one of the signs countless times because people keep hitting it. I think a cyclist was killed there too for the same reason 🙁
I would also add, from a(ex) motorcyclist's perspective. If you pulled out on him in the L/H lane I can see how I would assume that you keeping left. People do this a lot: Entering the roundabout to turn left on the assumption that the person already on it can go past them because there is a wide exit. ie An informal interpretation of the sort of roundabout where the L/H lane is marked off so that vehicles can turn left without officially entering the roundabout itself. A misjudgement on the bikers part, but the fact remains that Give Way is the operative rule here & basically you misjudged it.
In Wales? Now we know you're just making it up 😉at certain times of the year the sun is shining right in your face
From my understanding of the situation, was the motorbike not in completely the wrong lane for pulling off where he did?
Your understanding, Sir, is wrong. He wasn't pulling off [from alongside Graham] he was already on the roundabout coming from another junction.
In Wales? Now we know you're just making it up
Sorry that was a typo. I meant that the rain is right in your face.
molgrips - Member
Thank you! See, it's not just me!
You're not the only dithering, incompetent driver in Wales. Congrats!
Looks alright to me.
For clarity here is a pretty diagram.
[img] 
[/img]
I'm the blue line looking to take my 2nd exit. I look to the right and clock the car (red line) taking the exit before mine and motorbike (green line) next to him.
I judged (correctly) that he is going for the next exit but I judged (incorrectly) that he would take adopt left lane to take his exit and would pass behind me as I'd be well in front of him. In fact he took the line shown and passed in front of me just as I passed the exit.
If the left hand lane is marked left turn only then you were in the wrong lane.
It's not.
you never enter a roundabout if somebody is on it sorry, if more people observed that rule things might flow smoother
But I'd still be waiting there now if I tried to follow that rule - it is a big ol roundabout, there is always someone on it somewhere.
I saw them come round the corner (where their lines start) as I approached the line and had the choice of coming to a stop or continuing on.
Google measures that distance as about 100 metres. I judged that to be plenty of time to get away well ahead of the biker and past his exit which started about ten meters to my left.
Consensus seems to be that I underestimated his speed/acceleration - which is fair enough.
I wouldn't worry so much, the motorcyclist would've forgotten by the next junction, and be concentration just a bit more.
molgrips - Member
With the first link, try stopping (if you have to) before the give way lines onto the r'about, it will give you a much longer sight line to traffic approaching from your right so you won't need to pull out infront of anyone who you may have not seen.
The second link you can see for miles, so not sure what the problem is?
I was taught that when exiting a roundabout from the inside lane that I should move to the outside lane the turn before I wish to exit.
In addition my wife actually failed her driving test when she was (in her opinion) forced to exit a roundabout from the inside lane on to the right hand lane of the exit road as the examiner deemed it to be an unsafe manoeuvre and failed to show clearly what her intentions were to other road users.
IMHO I believe the m/c should have already moved into the outside lane filtering in behind traffic in that lane, thus making his intentions clear.
By trying to exit directly from the inside lane he has effectively cut directly across a lane and in turn cut the op up.
Sorry but in this scenario I believe the fault lies solidly with the mc not only for not using a roundabout correctly but for not riding defensively and protecting himself through his actions.
Your understanding, Sir, is wrong. He wasn't pulling off [from alongside Graham] he was already on the roundabout coming from another junction.
I think your understanding of my question is wrong.
Pulling off the roundabout is what I meant. Did he cut from the centre lane across the left-hand lane (where he should have been) to leave the roundabout?
Strikes me that you both misjudged each others trajectory and speed; Chalk it up to experience and move on; at least you had the situational awareness and reaction time to avoid impact.
IMHO I believe the m/c should have already moved into the outside lane filtering in behind traffic in that lane, thus making his intentions clear.
That was certainly what I expected him to do, but the exit he was going for is a bit tricky as it has three lanes and the leftmost splits off immediately after the exit to become a sliproad up to the flyover - so if you want to stay in the low road you have to take the middle lane on that exit.
Did he cut from the centre lane across the left-hand lane (where he should have been) to leave the roundabout?
Yep. see diagram ^^.
Consensus seems to be that I underestimated his speed/acceleration - which is fair enough.
its an interesting one, if I accelerate fast enough on a roundabout I can effectively make anyone in front who's entered after me 'in the wrong?'
anyway i've done almost exactly the same as OP when on pushbike commuting. in that instance, i actually entered the RAB before the motorbike, but he accelerated so quickly he nearly rammed my back [s]doo [/s]wheel in..
With the first link, try stopping (if you have to) before the give way lines onto the r'about, it will give you a much longer sight line to traffic approaching from your right so you won't need to pull out infront of anyone who you may have not seen.
Thanks for the tip 🙄
The second link you can see for miles, so not sure what the problem is?
I told you what it was. It's a roundabout near me and one I've used hundreds of times. You seem to have never been there. So give me some credit eh?
Consensus seems to be that I underestimated his speed/acceleration - which is fair enough.
Yep.
Learn, move on, end thread. 🙂
I'm kidding, I can sense molly keeping this alive for some time. 😆
Couple of serious points though (not aimed specifically at the OP):
1) Trying to apportion any blame to the motorcyclist is entirely counter productive. The only thing the driver is in control of is his car. You can't control the biker whether his riding is good or bad, so look what you as the driver can do to make sure this doesn't happen again, because that's all you can do.
2) Worrying couple of posts that suggest it's ok to increase risk to save any impact on your journey time, especially on a cycling forum!
molgrips - MemberThanks for the tip 🙄
No problem.
It's obvious you're in need of help, just a pity you can't accept it.
Whatever makes you feel clever and better.
molgrips - MemberWhatever makes you feel clever and better.
What makes me feel "clever and better" is improving my driving, which I strive to do continuously.
Why don't you try it?
Serious question.
What, staying back at that roundabout? Because I can't see past the sign or all the other people that are turning down the road I am coming out of.
What make you think I've never tried it? What makes you think I'm so unaware of my physical surroundings?
What, in my forum posting history, makes you think that I don't think very carefully about everything I do? Under-thinking is not something I'm accused of very often!
I get out of that roundabout, as I said I do it all the time. However, there are problems with its design that could be helped if people didn't go so fast around it. Take my word for it.
molgrips - Member
Whatever makes you feel clever and better.
Your attitude is ****ed up when it comes to driving. It's a constant learning process. You don't just get a licences and that's it. I think this is why you have so many issues.
It's actually a shame that the mc can't speak for himself here as it would be good to hear both sides.
The fact is though that they had not placed themselves in the safest position to exit the roundabout. I'm fairly sure that if the mc is an intelligent person (which I don't doubt for a moment 🙂 ) they would have already thought about how they might get themselves into a better and safer position in future.
I know if it were me I'd be kicking myself for being so daft and thanking my lucky stars that I'm still around to do things differently another time
Point the first, the fact that it's a bike is irrelevant and muddies the waters. Cross out "bike" and write "vehicle."
Point the second, when entering a roundabout, you give way to traffic on the roundabout (unless indicated otherwise). The fact that you might have to wait a bit is also irrelevant. How would that stand up after a collision? "Well, I know I should have waited, but it would have been ages so I just pulled out."
It's perfectly acceptable to exit a roundabout from the rightmost lane (again, subject to contrary directions), though it's often prudent to move left in anticipation (especially on two wheels) to try and minimise the likelihood of exactly this situation occurring.
The OP's road position and lack of indication were fine. It boils down to not knowing where the motorcylist was headed (was he not indicating? He should have indicated left after passing the previous exit), guessing, and guessing incorrectly.
The OP's road position and lack of indication were fine.
While the road position was fine, did I miss the bit where the OP indicated right to show he wasn't going off at the first exit?!
That's one of the problems at roundabouts, nobody seems to like to indicate.
If you're in the outside lane and you're going to be passing exits but not taking them, why not just put your right indicator on to let people know!
My take on it:
[b]The Motorcyclist[/b] (I am one) should be riding for self-preservation.
Assuming that all cars will not see/register him/his speed.
Busy junctions are very hazardous for motorbikes. Not the place to be cutting thing s fine.
Not doing anything ambiguous that might confuse other road users is important as is being prepared to yield to other vehicles if necessary.
(It's of little comfort being self-righteous from a hospital bed)
Having said that, it is very annoying (and hazardous...) when cars pull out across you.
[b]the Driver[/b] (I am one) should approach roundabouts with care, being prepared to stop, but not entering slowly and definitely not assuming what other vehicles are doing or pulling out in front of other vehicles.
ps. I do indicate on roundabouts whilst driving a car, riding a motorbike or riding a pedal bike. Lots of people don't and lots of people indicate in a mis-leading way.
Your attitude is **** up when it comes to driving. It's a constant learning process.
Yes, I know.
But there's not much I can learn from you if you insist on completely misunderstanding everything I say. Your comments on the other thread were all totally missing the point. But you ignore me trying to correct your understanding and think I'm just an idiot who not only has learned nothing in 20 years of driving but can't take criticism and learn.
I don't have issues with driving btw. You think I do, despite never having seen me drive. Perhaps you have an issue with your understanding of what you can learn about someone else on an internet forum.
Point the first, the fact that it's a bike is irrelevant and muddies the waters.
I guess the relevance is probably his ability to accelerate much faster than me.
Point the second, when entering a roundabout, you give way to traffic on the roundabout (unless indicated otherwise). The fact that you might have to wait a bit is also irrelevant. How would that stand up after a collision? "Well, I know I should have waited, but it would have been ages so I just pulled out."
I'm really not an impatient driver - I'm normally the one that gets beeped at for staying behind people when I don't feel it is safe to overtake.
I honestly didn't pull out because I was in a rush. I pulled out because the nearest vehicles were 100m away and weren't going much faster than me so I (mis?)judged that I had plenty of time.
If I'd thought they were too close I'd have been perfectly happy to wait.
It boils down to not knowing where the motorcylist was headed (was he not indicating? He should have indicated left after passing the previous exit), guessing, and guessing incorrectly.
I didn't see an indicator but I did guess correctly where he was heading - that wasn't the issue - I just expected him to pass behind me for that exit, not in front of me.
did I miss the bit where the OP indicated right to show he wasn't going off at the first exit?!
Let me be the first to post a section of highway code:
186
Signals and position. When taking the first exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwisesignal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwisesignal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.[b]When taking any intermediate exit[/b], unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
[b]you should not normally need to signal on approach[/b]
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.
GrahamSI didn't see an indicator but I did guess correctly where he was heading - that wasn't the issue - I just expected him to pass behind me for that exit, not in front of me.
I can sympathise (see my post above) and he probably should have been behind you, but had you not pulled out, maybe he would have been in the left lane.
Personally, I would have been indicating on my motorbike and taking it easy, but drivers don't always see indicators....
While the road position was fine, did I miss the bit where the OP indicated right to show he wasn't going off at the first exit?!
That's one of the problems at roundabouts, nobody seems to like to indicate.
I didn't indicate right because, as I understand it, you're not supposed to!
I indicate left to say I'm going off once I pass the last exit before mine. I don't indicate right unless I'm going to a right(ish) exit or going all the way around.
lightman - MemberIf you're in the outside lane and you're going to be passing exits but not taking them, why not just put your right indicator on to let people know!
Because you might get a driver ahead pulling out onto the roundabout to take their next exit, thinking you are going to continue around the roundabout when you're not.
This is extremely bad practise, and I have witnessed it a few times despite never having coming across anywhere this is taught. 💡
[i]I didn't indicate because, as I understand it, you're not supposed to![/i]
I don't indicate when I'm entering a roundabout when I'm goign straight on. I will indciate as I'm exiting though, if only to give the people waiting to join at that point an idea of what I'm planning.
While it appears by the highway code that you're not advised to, it certainly doesn't hurt to let people know.
If I am in the outside lane, I always indicate right if I'm coming up to an exit I'm not taking, mostly because I don't want people pulling out in front of me because they think I might be turning left but just didn't bother indicating.
ps.
The m/c shouldn't really have cut across you anyway, but an indicator may have helped him decide what to do.
I believe the m/c should have already moved into the outside lane filtering in behind traffic in that lane, thus making his intentions clear.
If by this you mean the m/c should have positioned himself behind the car vacating the exit before the OP then that is a massive no.
1: It runs the risk that the car will obscure him from traffic joining
2: People will pull out thinking he is leaving at that exit.
IMHO if you want this to be a learning exercise I am going to guess that the key to the m/c position lies in the fact that the exit he is going for has two options. I suspect he is taking the R/H one of those hence he is keeping right in order to do so & explains why he isn't keen to pull in behind the OP.
Fair do's to the OP for trying to understand why the situation happened rather than just going 'bloody motorcyclists'.
I get out of that roundabout, as I said I do it all the time. However, there are problems with its design that could be helped if people didn't go so fast around it. Take my word for it.
I will just back up molgrips on how hideous the Gabalfa interchange is, definitely doesnt look it on Google Maps though. You genuinely have to gun it 90% of the time just to get out...not to mention the ice-like surface on some of the exits in the wet, causing lots of (fun) tail happy exits 🙂 😀
