[Closed] Oops! Nearly T-boned a motorcyclist on the way to work

Prepare to be lynched? This is STW...

You should not have been indicating for 2nd exit, so you were correct.

The motorcyclist just learned why the outside lane is preferable for exiting the roundabout.

He may also have been going fast. There's a similar roundabout near me where people hoon around it which gives you basically no time to pull out. So you floor it when you can and they have to brake, and give you all sorts of aggro. Well, if you weren't going so bloody fast there wouldn't be an issue.

That situation (not yours necessarily) is an example of aggressive driving and speed forcing other people to be technically in the wrong without it actually being their fault.

I guess the only thing you could have done differently would be to indicate right (even though you're effectively going straight-on).

Sounds like the biker made a bad judgement call IMO.

Prepare to be lynched? This is STW...

Happy to be if I can learn something from it.

Edit: Ignore me, wrong end of stick.

Also, motorcyclist should not be passing people on roundabouts just before making manoevures.

Good reactions OP! Sounds like that could have been horrible.

he was on the roundabout you chose to enter the roundabout fully aware he was using it.. your bang to rights mate
itll no doubt be being debated right now on bikesonroundabouts/forum.com now how a STW contributor through his negligence nearly took the life of an innocent forum member..

left lane 1st exit, 2nd exit, right lane for the others .. that's what I was taught and what highway code suggests. Less and less seem to take heed though. ANOTHER EDIT I learnt to drive in Swindon in the 90's btw /ANOTHER EDIT

yah yah I know every 'bout is different and depends on how many lanes in and how many lanes out but the above is the default framework.

I'd say you were right EDIT in terms of lane usage at least /EDIT, just depends on speed judgement of you of the motorbike and the motorbike of you.

Both are a safe distance away

bit confused when you say you pull onto the roundabout in the outside lane. do you mean the left most or right most?

If you were the black puegeot in the streetview and the first exit is the main road and the second is that B road then I would say you should be in the left most lane leading up the roundabout and go round the roundabout in the left most lane. Unless there is an arrow on the approach road saying that the left most lane is for immediate left turn only (ie a left arrow on the lane and not a left and straight ahead or no arrow).

If you did all that okay and pulled out into a safe gap then I would suggest the motorcyclist was in the wrong in trying to overtake too late before the exit.

Or you miss-judged the gap.

sounds like he may not have realised your intention and may have been a bit eager to get past you without checking your indictaions or lack of, put it down to one of those things, at least is sounds as though you were in the correct lane and indicated at the correct time and you knew your surroundings. As long as no one was hurt everyone is ok. put it down to one of those things...

Are you saying the biker took the 1st exit?

[quote=andyl said]bit confused when you say you pull onto the roundabout in the outside lane. do you mean the left most or right most?

Outside lane == right hand lane.

Bikes can accelerate way faster than a car

Yes, but a roundabout is not the place for such acceleration.

If the motorcyclist had been going nice and slowly there would have been no issue, as far as I can see.

he was on the roundabout you chose to enter the roundabout fully aware he was using it.. your bang to rights mate

Outside lane == right hand lane.

That didn't make it any clearer.

Also, motorcyclist should not be passing people on roundabouts just before making manoevures.

We need a scale drawing or a scale Lego model....

[i]If the motorcyclist had been going nice and slowly there would have been no issue, as far as I can see. [/i]

why should the motorcyclist go 'nice and slowly' just because someone chose to pull out when it wasn't clear to do so?

You screwed up - how can you have been a safe distance away if suddenly he was right in front of you after you entered the roundabout? Sure some motorbikes accelerate ridiculously and dangerously quickly going through roundabouts but everyone knows this and it should be commonsense you don't 'go for a gap' when one of the vehicles approaching is a motorbike.

left lane 1st exit, 2nd exit, right lane for the others .. that's what I was taught and what highway code suggests.

The Highway Code is pretty vague. It says left for left, right for right and [i]"When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout"[/i]

Bikes can accelerate way faster than a car

No doubt and the fact he caught me suggests that he did just that. I wasn't really expecting him to accelerate hard on a roundabout though.

It's quite possible I misjudged his speed, but when I pulled on I had judged that if he was turning left then I'd be well out of his way before he did so.

bit confused when you say you pull onto the roundabout in the outside lane. do you mean the left most or right most?

Sorry, yeah outside lane of the roundabout, leftmost.

If you were the black puegeot in the streetview and the first exit is the main road and the second is that B road then I would say you should be in the left most lane leading up the roundabout and go round the roundabout in the left most lane.

Yep that was what I did. Joined from left hand lane on entrance on B1426, stayed in left hand lane of roundabout aiming for 2nd exit to B1426.

On approach I see a car on the outside lane of the roundabout about to turn off, and a motorbike in the middle lane next to the car.

Sorry, yeah outside lane of the roundabout, leftmost.

Are you saying the biker took the 1st exit?

Yep - he took 1st exit (from my perspective - probably "straight on" from his)

My bad re: outside lane == rightmost, on r'bouts the outside lane is the leftmost lane.

If I wanted to go straight on i.e. go past the first exit and take the second exit then I would have got into the middle lane, not the left hand (outside) lane. This is where you went wrong IMO.

(unless there were road markings/signs to indicate which lane to use)

Give way to traffic on the roundabout. Dosen't matter what speed he's going at molgrips it is up to you to judge it & give way. To the OP if there are three lanes on the exit it is quite ok to be in the middle lane to exit. Your streeview doesn't really help out as there doesn't seem to be any 'lanes' at all on the roundabout itself. I don't know the road but given the apparent width of the 1st exit I would( personally) be in the RH lane on approach if I wanted to go straight on. Still. No-one died, move on.

Knock him off , then get out and beat him to death with tyre lever .

It's the Nordschleife way with bikers !

I'm am joking before anyone starts. 🙂

Still. No-one died

At what point did the m/c put his left indicator on to exit ?
i.e. was it already on as you pulled onto the roundabout ? (hope not !)

Dosen't matter what speed he's going at molgrips it is up to you to judge it & give way

Well, in the case I'm talking about, you can't even see them before it's too late. So you have to just hope. The view is obscured by trees, similar to the OP's image except that there it's a mound of earth and a tree.

If the bike was in the lane next to him (and there are three lanes), where did you think he was going?

I thought he was most likely going for the 1st exit (the one which he did take), or possibly the 2nd where I was going.

But I expected him to pass [i]behind me[/i] if he was going for the 1st or stay behind me till the 2nd - as I judged I'd be out of his way before the 1st exit (I accept it is possible I either misjudged his speed or just didn't factor in that he would accelerate hard when he got to the straight)

There's a junction like this under the Mancunian way, multiple lane exit from a roundabout.

I avoid it because of the issue of vehicles on the inside of the roundabout turning off it across the outside lane.

Doesn't matter who's right if one person interprets things differently...

Sounds like you convinced yourself that he was *not* turning off at the exit after yours, and you were wrong. Why did you assume that?

Gladly the whole thing has just been a learning experience.

molgrips - Member
So you floor it when you can and they have to brake, and give you all sorts of aggro. Well, if you weren't going so bloody fast there wouldn't be an issue.
That situation (not yours necessarily) is an example of aggressive driving and speed forcing other people to be technically in the wrong without it actually being their fault.

Is this from your "special" edition of the Highway Code?

[i]Is this from your "special" addition of the Highway Code? [/i]

🙂

Op was in the correct lane imo.
Right hand lane for exits 12 o'clock or after according to signage not layout of roundabout . Looking at the sign post further back down the road 2nd exit is before 12 o'clock therefor approach in left hand lane .

GrahamS - Member

"Are you saying the biker took the 1st exit?"

Yep - he took 1st exit (from my perspective - probably "straight on" from his)

Then from the distance involved (you joining the r'about to him exiting) you definitely pulled out in front of him.

Maybe you dithered a little, or "did a molgrips" as we like to say in these parts?

SOunds like the MC was going faster than you judged, and I'm guessing wasn't indicating (no one does on roundabouts which doesn't help), but as you were goin straight on you were very like to intersect his path so the fault with you I think.

Good that you are thinking about it and not just going "bloody people, I'm right blah blah"

I get you now. I always assume the 'outside lane' to be the right most like on a straight road 'pulling into the outside lane to overtake'.

For that roundabout I would have said left most for 1st exit (dual carriageway) and 2nd exit.

Middle lane for 2nd lane (if one there) on the 2nd exit and 3rd exit.

Right lane for going further round 4th and so on.

The approach road has 2 lanes but the roundabout 3 so left goes to left and right approach to either middle or right on the roundabout, unless there is dotted lines indicating otherwise(ie directing the right approach into the right most lane).

If I wanted to go straight on i.e. go past the first exit and take the second exit then I would have got into the middle lane, not the left hand (outside) lane. This is where you went wrong IMO.

Not what the [url= https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/roundabouts-184-to-190 ]highway code says[/url] to do:

[img] [/img]

But yes that may have made my intention more obvious. Trouble is you then get cars joining from the 1st exit and you have to [i]cross the streams[/i] to get to the exit.

[img] [/img]

molgrips - Member

He may also have been going fast. There's a similar roundabout near me where people hoon around it which gives you basically no time to pull out. So you floor it when you can and they have to brake, and give you all sorts of aggro. Well, if you weren't going so bloody fast there wouldn't be an issue.

That situation (not yours necessarily) is an example of aggressive driving and speed forcing other people to be technically in the wrong without it actually being their fault.

Oh really?
Let's have a link to this r'about then... 🙂

Maybe you dithered a little, or "did a molgrips" as we like to say in these parts?

sorry molly, but that did make me 😆

From my understanding of the situation, was the motorbike not in completely the wrong lane for pulling off where he did? and using the roundabout lanes to overtake the other car, then cut across the lane he should have been in.

Not that this technically stops it being the OP's fault. But reduces the moral blame somewhat.

I think it is hard to say not knowing all the facts. If the left hand lane is marked left turn only then you were in the wrong lane. Not knowing where the bike originated from if the bike was turning right they would have been closer to the middle and as they came up to their exit move outwards. Maybe it was both peoples fault as the biker was straight lining the roundabout (curb to curb which they teach at advance riding) despite their being 2 lanes - car drivers do this a lot, it is okay to use this when there are no other cars near you. Unfortunately a lot of peoples perception(its the way our minds work) larger vehicles go faster than smaller items which is why you get pulled out on when riding a bike; small = slow large = fast. Or maybe as it is sunny weather the bike had only been taken out the garage and the rider was not in bike mode. If there had been an accident as you pulled onto the roundabout and you have to give way to traffic on your right you would have probably been deemed at fault. I have heard people say they go round the roundabout on the outside (left hand lane) as it makes it easier to turn off doesn't matter if they are going left, straight on or right.
The good thing is that there was no accident and you are aware of the situation and you are reflecting on what went wrong. Hopefully the rider is doing the same!

I know the kind of roundaboout you mean, there is one I use all the time on the way into Edinburgh, it's too small for the number of exits, 40mph zone but on/offramps to motorway. If you have to stop is very hard to get back in the traffic flow. Takes judgement.

But anyways, you never enter a roundabout if somebody is on it sorry, if more people observed that rule things might flow smoother, although I am sure somebody will come along with a 500 word post including quotes from both the Highway Code and Beowulf to prove me wrong !

not sure it really matters who was wrong or right, I think you know what to do in the future though. THINK BIKE!

Oh really?
Let's have a link to this r'about then...

Lets have a look then Moley!

😆
Was the OP in the:
Left turn lane
Right turn lane
My turn lane
...?

Let's have a link to this r'about then..

http://goo.gl/maps/P6vAY

http://goo.gl/maps/AKBtN

Bear in mind it's a pretty wide-angle lens, in real life it's a lot closer than that.

Everyone has to floor it to get out of their junctions, and they usually haven't got the self control to slow down again so it ends up a constant stream of cars pouring around at 30mph. If people slowed down a smidge there'd be room for everyone to get out no trouble.

Sorry OP is in wrong, you entered the roundabout when other users were using it. The fact the biker is in a middle lane (not that this exists on that roundabout) is irrelevant. IF you could see the vehicles signalling to pull off (like the car was doing) then entering the roundabout would have been seen as OK (technically not OK but you get my drift), as it was you saw a MC on the roundabout with unknown intention and still proceeded to enter.

tis life, we all make mistakes, but i'm sure you have learnt a lesson.

Very few rounabouts have lanes on - they are assumed. Entries and exits however do, and these are generally in accordance with the number of exists. RB's (with 4 exits) entry with 3 lanes makes these moanouvers a lot more simple. 1st exit = left lane, 2nd exit = middle, 3rd and 4th = right lane. Those where only 2 entry lanes exist pose more of a thoughtful approach and, as RB's are not all the same a consider approach has to be given, then the rule of "do not enter the RB whilst others are using it, or your exit is clear, exists!

it's absolutely chockerblock with traffic in that link molgrips, I can see why it's so difficult to pull out.

Sui - on big roundabouts if you waited for the roundabout to be completely clear before pulling out in rushhour you'd be there till 7pm.

molgrips - as soon as you described that roundabout it sounded like gabalfa to me.. can be a nightmare at times!

Thank you! See, it's not just me!

And to top it all, at certain times of the year the sun is shining right in your face as you come out of one of the roads so you can't see anything at all in front of you. According to the police they've had to replace one of the signs countless times because people keep hitting it. I think a cyclist was killed there too for the same reason 🙁

I would also add, from a(ex) motorcyclist's perspective. If you pulled out on him in the L/H lane I can see how I would assume that you keeping left. People do this a lot: Entering the roundabout to turn left on the assumption that the person already on it can go past them because there is a wide exit. ie An informal interpretation of the sort of roundabout where the L/H lane is marked off so that vehicles can turn left without officially entering the roundabout itself. A misjudgement on the bikers part, but the fact remains that Give Way is the operative rule here & basically you misjudged it.

at certain times of the year the sun is shining right in your face

From my understanding of the situation, was the motorbike not in completely the wrong lane for pulling off where he did?

In Wales? Now we know you're just making it up

Sorry that was a typo. I meant that the rain is right in your face.

molgrips - Member
Thank you! See, it's not just me!

For clarity here is a pretty diagram.

[img] [/img]

I'm the blue line looking to take my 2nd exit. I look to the right and clock the car (red line) taking the exit before mine and motorbike (green line) next to him.

I judged (correctly) that he is going for the next exit but I judged (incorrectly) that he would take adopt left lane to take his exit and would pass behind me as I'd be well in front of him. In fact he took the line shown and passed in front of me just as I passed the exit.

If the left hand lane is marked left turn only then you were in the wrong lane.

It's not.

you never enter a roundabout if somebody is on it sorry, if more people observed that rule things might flow smoother

But I'd still be waiting there now if I tried to follow that rule - it is a big ol roundabout, there is always someone on it somewhere.

I saw them come round the corner (where their lines start) as I approached the line and had the choice of coming to a stop or continuing on.

Google measures that distance as about 100 metres. I judged that to be plenty of time to get away well ahead of the biker and past his exit which started about ten meters to my left.

Consensus seems to be that I underestimated his speed/acceleration - which is fair enough.

I wouldn't worry so much, the motorcyclist would've forgotten by the next junction, and be concentration just a bit more.

molgrips - Member

http://goo.gl/maps/P6vAY

http://goo.gl/maps/AKBtN

With the first link, try stopping (if you have to) before the give way lines onto the r'about, it will give you a much longer sight line to traffic approaching from your right so you won't need to pull out infront of anyone who you may have not seen.

The second link you can see for miles, so not sure what the problem is?

I was taught that when exiting a roundabout from the inside lane that I should move to the outside lane the turn before I wish to exit.
In addition my wife actually failed her driving test when she was (in her opinion) forced to exit a roundabout from the inside lane on to the right hand lane of the exit road as the examiner deemed it to be an unsafe manoeuvre and failed to show clearly what her intentions were to other road users.
IMHO I believe the m/c should have already moved into the outside lane filtering in behind traffic in that lane, thus making his intentions clear.
By trying to exit directly from the inside lane he has effectively cut directly across a lane and in turn cut the op up.
Sorry but in this scenario I believe the fault lies solidly with the mc not only for not using a roundabout correctly but for not riding defensively and protecting himself through his actions.

Your understanding, Sir, is wrong. He wasn't pulling off [from alongside Graham] he was already on the roundabout coming from another junction.

I think your understanding of my question is wrong.

Pulling off the roundabout is what I meant. Did he cut from the centre lane across the left-hand lane (where he should have been) to leave the roundabout?

Strikes me that you both misjudged each others trajectory and speed; Chalk it up to experience and move on; at least you had the situational awareness and reaction time to avoid impact.

IMHO I believe the m/c should have already moved into the outside lane filtering in behind traffic in that lane, thus making his intentions clear.

That was certainly what I expected him to do, but the exit he was going for is a bit tricky as it has three lanes and the leftmost splits off immediately after the exit to become a sliproad up to the flyover - so if you want to stay in the low road you have to take the middle lane on that exit.

Did he cut from the centre lane across the left-hand lane (where he should have been) to leave the roundabout?

Yep. see diagram ^^.

Consensus seems to be that I underestimated his speed/acceleration - which is fair enough.

its an interesting one, if I accelerate fast enough on a roundabout I can effectively make anyone in front who's entered after me 'in the wrong?'

anyway i've done almost exactly the same as OP when on pushbike commuting. in that instance, i actually entered the RAB before the motorbike, but he accelerated so quickly he nearly rammed my back [s]doo [/s]wheel in..

With the first link, try stopping (if you have to) before the give way lines onto the r'about, it will give you a much longer sight line to traffic approaching from your right so you won't need to pull out infront of anyone who you may have not seen.

Thanks for the tip 🙄

The second link you can see for miles, so not sure what the problem is?

I told you what it was. It's a roundabout near me and one I've used hundreds of times. You seem to have never been there. So give me some credit eh?

Consensus seems to be that I underestimated his speed/acceleration - which is fair enough.

Yep.
Learn, move on, end thread. 🙂

I'm kidding, I can sense molly keeping this alive for some time. 😆

Couple of serious points though (not aimed specifically at the OP):

1) Trying to apportion any blame to the motorcyclist is entirely counter productive. The only thing the driver is in control of is his car. You can't control the biker whether his riding is good or bad, so look what you as the driver can do to make sure this doesn't happen again, because that's all you can do.

2) Worrying couple of posts that suggest it's ok to increase risk to save any impact on your journey time, especially on a cycling forum!

molgrips - Member

Thanks for the tip 🙄

No problem.
It's obvious you're in need of help, just a pity you can't accept it.

Whatever makes you feel clever and better.

molgrips - Member

Whatever makes you feel clever and better.

What makes me feel "clever and better" is improving my driving, which I strive to do continuously.

Why don't you try it?
Serious question.

What, staying back at that roundabout? Because I can't see past the sign or all the other people that are turning down the road I am coming out of.

What make you think I've never tried it? What makes you think I'm so unaware of my physical surroundings?

What, in my forum posting history, makes you think that I don't think very carefully about everything I do? Under-thinking is not something I'm accused of very often!

I get out of that roundabout, as I said I do it all the time. However, there are problems with its design that could be helped if people didn't go so fast around it. Take my word for it.

molgrips - Member
Whatever makes you feel clever and better.

Your attitude is ****ed up when it comes to driving. It's a constant learning process. You don't just get a licences and that's it. I think this is why you have so many issues.

It's actually a shame that the mc can't speak for himself here as it would be good to hear both sides.
The fact is though that they had not placed themselves in the safest position to exit the roundabout. I'm fairly sure that if the mc is an intelligent person (which I don't doubt for a moment 🙂 ) they would have already thought about how they might get themselves into a better and safer position in future.
I know if it were me I'd be kicking myself for being so daft and thanking my lucky stars that I'm still around to do things differently another time

Point the first, the fact that it's a bike is irrelevant and muddies the waters. Cross out "bike" and write "vehicle."

Point the second, when entering a roundabout, you give way to traffic on the roundabout (unless indicated otherwise). The fact that you might have to wait a bit is also irrelevant. How would that stand up after a collision? "Well, I know I should have waited, but it would have been ages so I just pulled out."

It's perfectly acceptable to exit a roundabout from the rightmost lane (again, subject to contrary directions), though it's often prudent to move left in anticipation (especially on two wheels) to try and minimise the likelihood of exactly this situation occurring.

The OP's road position and lack of indication were fine. It boils down to not knowing where the motorcylist was headed (was he not indicating? He should have indicated left after passing the previous exit), guessing, and guessing incorrectly.

The OP's road position and lack of indication were fine.

While the road position was fine, did I miss the bit where the OP indicated right to show he wasn't going off at the first exit?!
That's one of the problems at roundabouts, nobody seems to like to indicate.
If you're in the outside lane and you're going to be passing exits but not taking them, why not just put your right indicator on to let people know!

My take on it:

[b]The Motorcyclist[/b] (I am one) should be riding for self-preservation.
Assuming that all cars will not see/register him/his speed.
Busy junctions are very hazardous for motorbikes. Not the place to be cutting thing s fine.
Not doing anything ambiguous that might confuse other road users is important as is being prepared to yield to other vehicles if necessary.
(It's of little comfort being self-righteous from a hospital bed)

Having said that, it is very annoying (and hazardous...) when cars pull out across you.

[b]the Driver[/b] (I am one) should approach roundabouts with care, being prepared to stop, but not entering slowly and definitely not assuming what other vehicles are doing or pulling out in front of other vehicles.

ps. I do indicate on roundabouts whilst driving a car, riding a motorbike or riding a pedal bike. Lots of people don't and lots of people indicate in a mis-leading way.